Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

[Merrick]

The problem with Greece is that a weak intervention (as OTL) is likely to do more harm than good because it incites a German invasion without being able to handle it. Unless the British can send a dozen divisions to Greece (not likely), better to stick to sending supplies and air support.

The problem with Malaya is that there is no war in Malaya in 1941! Yes, the Japanese are making threatening noises, but if things go roughly as OTL, in 1941 the British will be fighting active wars not just in North Africa and Greece/Crete but also East Africa, Syria/Lebanon and Iraq. And they're still very short of both trained troops and equipment, and fighting at the end of horrible supply lines. So Malaya, as OTL, will be mostly left to second-string Indian battalions with poor equipment and a few token British forces with the officers they can most spare. Tanks? Sorry mate, we need them in Libya. Armoured cars? Sorry mate, we need them in Iraq. Aircraft? Any Spitfires we can prise away from Fighter Command will be going to Malta or Crete; Malaya gets the cast-offs deemed unfit to face the Luftwaffe.

Maybe if things go better in North Africa and the other operations have wrapped by the autumn there might be time to rush a veteran division or two to Malaya when the crisis hit. Hopefully with full equipment rather than just shipping infantry to the POW cages.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Well if Crete ends up a British victory the British will have 10,000+ more troops to send to any trouble spots.

Actually that has me wondering, once British tank production starts scaling up, could they possibly sell a few dozen tanks (A9/10/13 most likely) to Greece? OTL Greece had all of 20 tanks going in, so imagine if they had 50 or more ITTL?

Greece, Crete and Sonnenblume cost the British Commonwealth forces 1.5 Divisions of troops and 5 Divisions of heavy equipment (M/T, radio trucks, field kitchens, Artillery, Mobile STD unit etc).

And in early 41 Britain was still developing its war industry and expanding its Army

This is one of the major reasons why there was little possibility of any reinforcements to the Far East beyond what was sent - everything was needed in the middle east/North Africa (or being sent to Russia)

I think actually having proprietary British artillery in Crete (ie 24 x 25 pounder guns supporting each Brigade) would have been more important and enough motor transport to keep at least some of he Brigades mobile.

Can you imagine if Maleme airfield was brought under effective artillery fire!

No abandoning of Hill 107, No airhead for the invaders and the attack probably gets called off on day 2....and this probably loses one of the best quotes of the war as the navy's 300 year rep is not challenged.

But for this there probably has to be no forces sent to Greece (no W force) and instead some or all of those forces sent to Crete (

Obviously having more armour is always a good thing and against paratroopers/airlanded troopers and light infantry (first waves of any cross beach landing without port facilities to off load heavier kit) would have difficulty dealing with any AFV be it a Rolls Royce armoured cars, Mk IV light tank's or 'Chad' Valliant infantry tanks.

 

[allanpcameron]

Obviously what will happen in Greece, Crete, Malaya and Burma etc is all in the future, which we'll get to, I presume.

Another good update, really showing the work having to be put in to get production up to speed. Once its done Britain will see ots tank Production skyrocket.

Actually there's little difference to OTL about numbers of tanks being produced, so by end of 1942 it should still be a bit over 16000. The difference is we have Valiant 1* instead of Covenanter. We have Valiant I instead of Valentine. The A10 cruiser instead of Crabtree's 10, Metro-Cammell and Birmingham Railway split the 100 ordered from Crabtree between them, so 260 are produced, and earlier. Fewer Mark VIs were ordered so save some money for the cruisers. A11 orders were up to 160 (iirc). Will as many Crusaders and Churchills be built, who knows yet. 'Maybes aye, maybes naw. ' (Kenny Dalglish quote).
View attachment 622726
This comes from BRITISH TANK PRODUCTION, 1934-1945 Benjamin Coombs Submitted for the degree of PhD University of Kent 2011

Looks like Nuffield might get left behind a bit though and by the time the A15 is ready it may be too late. Potentially a source of hulls for SPG's and SPAAG's etc once the A9 and A10 are used up if the Valiant isn't converted?

With Liberty engines? Perish the thought. Is the Crusader TTL's Covenanter?

Good to see the scaling up. How many more tanks will they be getting over OTL?

As above, not that many more, but better.

Actually, that makes me wonder, with tank production so high, will we see more armoured units than OTL?

Don't think so, just earlier and better.

Dangit Vauxhaull, just put the 3-inch gun in the bloody turret of the A-22! Great update, the UK's tank building industry is now very much in the starting position for the marathon that will consume the UK's industry for the next 4 years.

Good points, maybe someone will drop them a hint. We can but hope.

 

[Astrodragon]

Having better (and more reliable) tanks is a bigger multiplier than seems obvious. It means less tanks killed, less broken down (and lost to the enemy), and less production of spares and use of workshop personnel. The number of available tanks snowballs.

 

[Glyndwr01]

Dangit Vauxhaull, just put the 3-inch gun in the bloody turret of the A-22! Great update, the UK's tank building industry is now very much in the starting position for the marathon that will consume the UK's industry for the next 4 years.

No they have done the same as OTL and stuck the 3” in the hull!

 

[steamboy]

No they have done the same as OTL and stuck the 3” in the hull!

Fiends! So what they're making is the OTL M1 Churchill, but at least they're not ordering them off the blueprints as we all know the Churchill was a mechanical disaster when introduced.

 

[Unknown]

Crete was a near-run thing IOTL; butterflies might prevent its fall ITTL...

I don't know if Malaya is salvageable, but Burma can go differently, IMO...

 

[Glyndwr01]

Fiends! So what they're making is the OTL M1 Churchill, but at least they're not ordering them off the blueprints as we all know the Churchill was a mechanical disaster when introduced.

Always thought it looked like a tank about to breed!

 

[Atrophied]

yeah the protoypes not being impressive and them getting declined and instead they build either a later mark churchill but preferably maybe a black prince like tanks wich are ment to be attached to infantry divisons and actually do the job of infantry tanks rather than be pressed to mainly fight tanks would be best . And the production could be similar to otl churchills or even smaller but be alot less useless if maybe abit delayed to work on the redesign.

 

[MarcH]

Actually there's little difference to OTL about numbers of tanks being produced, so by end of 1942 it should still be a bit over 16000. The difference is we have Valiant 1* instead of Covenanter. We have Valiant I instead of Valentine. The A10 cruiser instead of Crabtree's 10, Metro-Cammell and Birmingham Railway split the 100 ordered from Crabtree between them, so 260 are produced, and earlier. Fewer Mark VIs were ordered so save some money for the cruisers. A11 orders were up to 160 (iirc). Will as many Crusaders and Churchills be built, who knows yet. 'Maybes aye, maybes naw. ' (Kenny Dalglish quote).

British tank production did skyrocket OTL. In 1942 they produced more tanks than Germany, yes they were a but rubbish but the production capacity set up here really paid dividends in numbers of tanks produced. The only question is what tank will really take off TTL. Will it be the current mix of Valiant's and the improved A15? will it just be a Universal Valiant? or will it be the Victor? Time will tell though the first one is probably the least likely.

Should add im not suggesting the British will be building Victor's by the shed load in 1942 but that is for another post. 1942 could be an interesting year for British tank production.

With Liberty engines? Perish the thought. Is the Crusader TTL's Covenanter?

To be fair the Liberty was never the real problem with the Crusader. The very rushed development and deployment created quite a few of the issues. Later on when the Liberty was stressed to higher horse power that also created issues. There was a time though when most of the teething troubles had been worked out and it wasn't being pushed that the Liberty was not bad. Yes that's hardly a ringing endorsement but given the situation most of the time it is a big improvement.
TTL the A15 being delayed means a lot of the kinks can be worked out which is only a good thing for the tank. The question becomes will it be enough, my feeling is no as by the time it is ready the Valiant will be THE tank for Britain in some form or another. The only question then becomes what happens to the A15 the options are

1. Limited run to produce some training tanks then switch the production over to some other tank. What tank they switch too depends. If the Victor design is ready then the A15 group could be the first manufacturers to start switching to that tank. Even if it is not, preparing to build the Victor will take time so laying the groundwork whilst the design is finished makes some sense. The other option is the Valiant in some form, either as a tank or as support vehicles.
2. Make use of the A15 in some other way and as a basis for a SPG, SPAAG and any other tool that can be thought up seems to make sense. It represents less disruption than Option 1 but there will be issues with Logistics etc as well as the ultimate capability of the vehicles produced over a Valiant derived vehicle.
3. Option 3 is cut the losses on the A15 entirely, it is still born and you go back to switching production, this time however to the Valiant. The only issue I could see with this is will the engine capacity be there right away?

 

[The Wooksta!]

There were some Crusaders with AA turrets.

 

[Orry]

There were some Crusaders with AA turrets.

From Wiki

 

[The Wooksta!]

They were also used for infantry support too.

There's a nice 72nd kit I like the look of, but don't want to go down the armour rabbit hole. Got enough aircraft to do...

 

[MattII]

Hm, so the Crusader and Churchill are going to be delayed, Covenanter is dead, and there's fewer lights, yet there's going to be more tanks produced than OTL into 1942? The only designs there to take up the slack is the Valiant.

And Astrodragon is right that having better tanks will snowball into having more too, especially as having Valiants rather than their OTL tanks will allow them to win several significant battles they lost OTL, like Brega (maybe even El Agheila) and Crete.

 

[unknownchild]

imeche

The United Kingdom invented the tank and was responsible for campaign-winning tactics, yet by the start of World War II had fallen well behind other nations in the design and build of armored vehicles. William Suttie tells the history of tank design from a government perspective and how the situation during World War II resulted in the formation of the Fighting Vehicles Research and Development Establishment at Chertsey which developed world leading vehicles and technologies throughout the Cold War.

 

[MarcH]

Hm, so the Crusader and Churchill are going to be delayed, Covenanter is dead, and there's fewer lights, yet there's going to be more tanks produced than OTL into 1942? The only designs there to take up the slack is the Valiant.

And Astrodragon is right that having better tanks will snowball into having more too, especially as having Valiants rather than their OTL tanks will allow them to win several significant battles they lost OTL, like Brega (maybe even El Agheila) and Crete.

The A15 and A22 are at best/worst delayed (delete as appropriate) and at best/worst going to get cancelled.
If they don't pan out or aren't seen as being worth the trouble they won't be pushed into service as there is nothing better. TTL we have the something better already.

 

[CB13]

I would be incredibly hesitant to invest in model-specific production facilities and production training if you lacked confidence in the engineering.

If not happy with design and with no new model ready to go, maybe you use opportunity to expand the production facilities square footage and upskill the workforce (welding, etc.) so that as new model is approved, you've effectively doubled your monthly production capacity at that facility.

 

[MarcH]

So, im sat on my night shift with not much to do except muse so muse I shall.

Britain is looking at sending more tanks to North Africa. The question is what will the Western Desert Force go into battle with.

The first question is how confident is Britain feeling. Based on the post previously where we got a look inside Churchill's head it's fairly confident, at least in the navy.
Then what is there that can actually be sent to North Africa.

Well we have A10's in Britain but I am fairly sure they are already in training only mode unless they are in a theatre somewhere, no more of them are being sent.

Then the A13, that ain't going either. The logistics already are a massive headache without adding another tank to the mix. Also I expect these will soon be added to the training only pile.

A9, any left in the UK could be an option to send out there because the majority of the cruisers currently in theatre are A9's. Thing is they will be a one shot deal as they aren't being produced any more so once they are gone you can't replace them. So wile an option its an unlikely one.

Valiant Cruiser. This is a likely candidate for a few reasons. Firstly it's in production and production numbers are only going to go up so replacements and spares etc will be available. Also there are a lot of them so you can send a decent sized force out as we have seen. The only issue is you only have so many right now so sending out too many means you will have to rely on other tanks complicating logistics etc.

Matilda II. Not likely, with the Valiant it is the second choice infantry tank so it won't be sent over the Valiant Infantry, speaking of which.

Infantry Valiant. This is another good choice. There are lots around, potentially enough to replace all the tanks in North Africa OTL minus recon tanks and still have some spare. In addition it is currently the most produced tank by Britain so spares etc will be more easily available as will replacements. Add to that the thick armour, good speed and long range on a tank and it does tick a lot of boxes.


So what is the best tank to send.
Valiant Infantry and send the lot. You can probably get all the tanks you need for the forces you have with spares and logistics not weakened. You can also free up all the tanks already in North Africa for other places such as sending the A9's to Palestine, the A10's could go south and the Matilda I's to Crete. The lights can then act as scouts and fill in gaps everywhere else. Will it happen, probably not, but I really think it will be considered. Plus imagine what will happen to the Italian's if it happens.

Do as Churchill said and send all the cruiser Valiant's that leaves you short on those tanks and spares etc and you need to make up the numbers with the tanks there. You still end up in a better position than OTL but it could be better.

Send a 50/50 split of infantry and cruiser Valiant's. I think this is the most likely scenario. You don't loose all your Cruiser Valiant's to North Africa so have spares, the force you send is the easiest mixed force to manage from a logistics point of view. It also has the benefit of being a very strong mixed force. Still pretty fun imagining the outcome for the Italian's if this force turns up during Compass.

Sp there you have it. Am I making sense or is the night shift getting to me.

 

[MattII]

A good argument. And if they're sending Valiants rather than some other, less capable vehicles, that means the Italians are well and truly screwed.

 

[Astrodragon]

The best argument for sending all the Valiant cruisers to the desert is that it minimises the logistics burden by reducing the types of tank needing support. You can afford multiple types in the UK, you are hours away from the factories and depots.
Given that the current opposition is the M11/39 (and even the upcoming M13/40 is no match for the cruiser version), its more than enough tank.