Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

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Yet another good update. Nice save on the 75mm, very impressive.

Now a quick question, using the A9 and A10 as a base for these prototypes is fine but have Carden and/or Little looked at converting the Valiant? With the production of the A9 and A10 basically over you would have to reopen them and given that the companies that were making the A9 and A10 are now making Valiant's that won't be easy. What would be easier is taking a small number of Valiant's built every month and making the SPG/SPAAG conversion on those. Either that or take one of the lower output production lines and convert that to making the SPGs and SPAAGs. Plus you then have the benefit of commonality of spare parts etc for all the vehicles.

Thinking about ot this may well be another way to slowly edge towards a universal Valiant. As the speed difference between the two versions decreases due to the engine issues the attractiveness of having to build and maintain only one tank will become harder to resist. Add on that the SPG and SPAAG will likely be built around the infantry version and it just adds to the easing of the logistics burden
 
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Crete has to be treated as '3 islands' linked by limited 'land bridges' in the north only where the main East to West MSR exists (there being no real East to West roads etc in the south or middle)

So Freyberg's biggest problem was that his primary combat units lacked motor transport having left most of it in Greece along with much of those units heavy equipment such as artillery (IIRC there was only a handful of assorted captured Italian guns), radio trucks, field kitchens, mobile STD medical unit (you get the picture) and not to mention the units having taken losses during that campaign.

This meant that he was unable to rapidly concentrate his superior numbers against the airheads while also having to cover suspected landing beaches - which he could have done had his Brigades / Battalions and supporting sub units had greater mobility to respond to events.

The Greek forces on the Island had an eclectic collection of rifles in differing calibres (none of it in a proprietary British calibre) and just 152 MMGs and LMGs of various makes with enough ammunition for an average of 50 rounds per rifleman - so they could not even zero their rifles let alone train!

With a decent Crystal ball and some magic fairy dust a 'what if?' could be 'W' force not reaching Greece (for whatever reason) and instead garrisoning Crete with the units arriving and establishing themselves with a full table of equipment (Motor Transport, artillery, radio trucks, field kitchens, mobile STD medical unit etc) and personnel.

Crete TTL may be saveable with the OTL infantry forces backed up by a better armored force. OTL 25 tanks were on Crete, TTL we are likely to have 30 Matilda I's sitting in Egypt looking for something to do. Crete is pretty much the perfect spot for them you deploy them in support of potential points of attack so landing sites and airfields and even 1 or 2 would make a big difference at the airfields over OTL.
If you could send around 30 of the spare Mk VI's as well as a mobile reserve or additional support to the A11's even better.
The A11 is still impervious to most AT weapons, and everything a Paratrooper has. Also in a fixed defensive role its poor mobility is much less of a problem. Also I think I am right in saying that they have radios TTL so they help solve the communication problem as well.

Also if events in North Africa are going better for the British then the troops there may not get pulled to go to Greece. That means less troops in Greece which really won't make much difference to the fight but will mean less equipment lost and less hassle post evacuation hopefully.
 
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Yet another good update. Nice save on the 75mm, very impressive.

Now a quick question, using the A9 and A10 as a base for these prototypes is fine but have Carden and/or Little looked at converting the Valiant? With the production of the A9 and A10 basically over you would have to reopen them and given that the companies that were making the A9 and A10 are now making Valiant's that won't be easy. What would be easier is taking a small number of Valiant's built every month and making the SPG/SPAAG conversion on those. Either that or take one of the lower output production lines and convert that to making the SPGs and SPAAGs. Plus you then have the benefit of commonality of spare parts etc for all the vehicles.
I suspect that given the small number of units required (<100 for the SPG?) reusing A9 chassis much as the Germans did with all their Panzer I and II for the Marder TD and Wespe is the sensible option
 
22 August 1940. Various locations.
22 August 1940. London, England.

It was becoming clear that the hopes of getting British designed tanks built in the United States of America were fading. As Mechanizations and Aero Ltd was the parent firm for the A15 cruiser tank, it was clear that the expansion of the war capacity into firms without previous tank building experience would have to be increased over those already in the A15 group under Lord Nuffield’s umbrella. West’s Gas and Fodens were the two firms who, along with Mechanizations and Aero Ltd., had been gearing up for tank production since the initial orders (200 from Mechanizations and Aero ltd, and 100 each from Fodens and West’s Gas) had been placed in 1939. Those orders had since been increased from 200 to 500 for Mechanizations & Aero Ltd, and from 100 to 250 for each of the other two firms. The total order from the War Office was now for 2,062 tanks to be delivered by May 1942. Vice-Chairman of the Nuffield Organisation, Sir Miles Thomas looked around the room at the representatives of the firms who had been approached to join the group.

Morris Commercial Cars; M. G. Cars; Ruston-Bucyrus; John Lysaght; and Milners Safe, were all thought to be capable of tank assembly. Morris Engine Branch were being asked to build the Liberty engines, clutches, gearboxes and steering units. Wolseley Motors would build suspensions, final drive and hull parts. W. G. Allen would build turrets; Daimler was needed for steering units. Altogether it was hoped that these twelve firms would be able to deliver the 60 A15 tanks per week needed to fulfil the full order on time. Three firms would be responsible for half of that number, Mechanizations and Aero Ltd; Morris Commercial Cars and Ruston-Bucyrus would each be expected to each produce ten per week. Milners Safe would build eight; M.G. Cars would build seven; and the rest five each per week. The only part that Mechanization and Aero Ltd wouldn’t build themselves was the steering units that Daimler would supply. The rest would assemble tanks from the parts which would be supplied from the other firms.

Miles Thomas was very aware that a lot of work was going to have to happen if the expectation that the A15 group were to make their first tank deliveries during either May or June 1941, reaching the peak of 60 tanks per week before the end of 1941. First of all, the tank itself had to be finalised. The recent report from Farnborough had been quite disheartening. Just as Mechanizations and Aero Ltd, Foddens and West’s Gas had had to do, each of the six companies involved in final assembly of the tank would have to build or redesign a plant to assemble them. They would need to recruit and train the expanded workforce; provide the requisite jigs and machine tools; deal with Air Raid Precautions; and all the other hundreds of jobs necessary to move into an entirely new type of manufacturing. Getting all these diverse companies ready, with wartime restrictions, to build the first tank in nine months seemed overly optimistic to Thomas. Lord Nuffield had assured the Ministry of Supply that it would happen and on time. After what Lord Beaverbrook had done to him over Castle Bromwich, Thomas was mildly surprised that his boss would make another promise like the one that he had made about building Spitfires.

The chief Production Engineer Andrew Robertson for the A15 project laid out in fine detail the various requirements and timetables. Having given them time to think over the information over lunch, Robertson then began to get the men at the meeting to talk though the potential problems, and how they were going to solve them.

22 August 1940. Leyland, England.

It was now two months since the introduction of women into the Leyland works and this had allowed the firm to increase the transfer of semiskilled male workers to satisfy the labour requirements. All the stops were being pulled out to get the first production of the Valiant Mark I* cruiser tanks completed, since they were now behind schedule. With the growth in women workers, Leyland was able to change from a two-shift system of 90 hours per week, to a continuous three-shift system of 135 hours over six days.

When Leyland received their first order for 151 Valiant tanks in September 1939, the construction of a new factory was necessary in order to meet the requirement of 24 tanks per month and the expectation that deliveries would commence in July 1940. By December 1939, three-quarters of the steel work had been completed, although heavy snow caused stoppages until February 1940, with material and labour shortages adding to the delays. By March, between 50 and 75 per cent of the walls and floor had only been completed, but the building remained unfinished in May. The Valiant order was increased to 251 tanks in June 1940, although Leyland could not promise the optimistic July 1941 completion date, nor the maximum delivery of 33 tanks per month, the factory had been built with the previous 24 tanks per month delivery rate in mind.

The first eight tanks were under assembly in July 1940, another sixteen hulls and turrets had been started so far in August. The first production model was expected during September 1940, and as the workforce became more familiar with their tasks, it was expected that they would reach ten per month in November, and then 24 per month in January 1941.

When it became clear that the demand for tanks were going to be a lot higher than the original orders, as Vickers was the parent company for the Valiant tank, applications had been made to the Ministry of Supply to have Leyland open a second factory at their site in Chertsey. This would be to build the Valiant Mark I infantry tank initially, moving to the Victor in due course. Ground for this factory had been broken in May, and it was expected to be up and running in June 1941. The lessons of building too small had been learned at Leyland and the site at Chertsey would from the outset be capable of building eighty tanks per month, even if getting the workforce towards the size necessary to reach that target would take much longer.

22 August 1940. Stafford, England.

English Electric Co was another firm that was moving from producing tramcars, bus bodies, and rolling stock to tanks. Like Leyland, work on their new plant at Stafford, with grants from the government, had begun at the beginning of the war and was now beginning to make good progress on getting their first Valiant Mark I* ready to roll off the production line.

There was a team from Vickers who had been helping set up the production line, and supervising the welders as they learned how to deal with armour plate. The Vickers men were pleased with English Electric Co’s flexibility and openness to new ideas, though they did worry about recruitment for the workforce. English Electric Co had entered into the military sector with great aplomb, now getting to grips with building aircraft, tanks and all the paraphernalia of war. The expansion included bringing many women into the workforce, and the Management had from the beginning wanted to modernise their working practises, something that hadn’t gone down with the old Trades Union officials. The fact that welding was the main skilled job on the tank production line also had the effect of squeezing out some of the older bad habits.

Something that the Vickers team thought was a clever idea was that the army had been approached by the company to make links with the workforce who were building tanks for them. In a piece of clever propaganda, the Valiant Mark I (the other two were in America), which bore the scars of battle getting the convoy of rations to the troops at Dunkirk from Calais, had been brought to Stafford. The crew of the tank told their story and let the workers see something of how the tanks they would be building would be used. This had gone down very well, and the army was now keen on doing the same at all the other tank factories.

The English Electric Co tank factory at Stafford, like the Leyland plant, was built with limitations on its size. At its maximum it would only be capable of building 30 tanks per month, and there was a little bit of commercial rivalry to try to get their production numbers higher and faster than their Leyland Motors team members. They were therefore attempting to one complete tank rolled out before the end of the month, then get to ten per month in October, rising to 30 per month before the end of the year.

22 August 1940. Glasgow, Scotland.

North British Locomotives had been initially brought into the tank manufacturing business with three orders made between February 1937 and October 1938 for 147 Mark VI light tanks. The Light Tanks were a different kettle of fish from the locomotives that the company was used to building. Progress on getting the tanks built had been slow, the first of the tanks hadn’t been produced until May 1938, fifteen months after the first order had been received. Production numbers were also quite low, once the company got into its stride in October 1938, their production averaged just 8 tanks per month. The company were still delivering four locomotives a month at the same time, and the area set aside for building tanks was extremely limited.

Both the Mark VI and VII Light Tanks were Vickers’ designs, and they were the parent company for their production. A team from Vickers had talked to the management of North British Locomotives about doing something to increase their production capacity for tanks, while not diminishing their core locomotive business.

With the huge increase in orders for Infantry and Cruiser tanks at the beginning of the war, Vickers and the management of North British Locomotives had offered, with government investment, to re-open the old Atlas Works in Springburn which had closed in 1923. It was a site limited in size, but with the right planning, it would be well capable of building around 25 Infantry tanks per month. Vickers however had been surprised when the new plant was rejected by the Ministry of Supply. Instead, the numbers of locomotives was to fall, and one of the erecting sheds was to be given over to build Vulcan’s A12 Matilda II. The reason given for this tank rather than the Valiant Infantry Tank was that the Matilda II’s production technique suited the skills of the locomotive company’s employees, rather than having to learn to weld. An initial order for 250 Matilda IIs had been awarded to North British Locomotives, who expected to begin production at the end of 1940.

Since the last Mark VI Light Tank had left the Hyde Park plant in Springburn earlier in the year, preparations for moving onto building the new Mark VII Light Tank, were well underway. New jigs and machine tools had had to be acquired as there were very few components that the new tank shared with its predecessor. The first production tank was expected to be completed in September, and then production would rise back to the previous level of 8 tanks per month from November. Since Light Tanks had fallen out of favour after the losses in France and Flanders, the total order for 100 Mark VIIs hadn’t been increased, unlike most other tanks. The fact that North British was the only firm building them, and that the total production would take a year, at two a week, didn’t seem to the company as being a high priority, so they retained the same limited tank shop at their Hyde Park plant, while preparing to build the Matilda II in the place of some locomotives.

22 August 1940. Crewe, England.

The London, Midland & Scottish attempts to design and be the lead company for the Cruiser Mark V (Covenanter) tank, had been still born. Previously they’d been in the running for either the A14 heavy cruiser, and once again that had come to nothing.

Now they were concentrating on the original tank they’d been given orders for. In October 1938 they had joined the group of companies involved in the Infantry Tank Mark II, the Vulcan Foundry designed A12 Matilda II. The initial order had only been for ten tanks, but that had been designed specifically to help them acquire the skills necessary for building tanks rather than locomotives. As of June 1940, the orders for Matilda IIs had risen to 652. The Horwich plant had been where the development of the tank building experience had begun, building the original ten Matilda IIs and then 30 Cruiser Mark IVs. The numbers of Infantry Tank Mark IIs (Matilda IIs) now ordered meant that a second line needed to be opened at their works in Crewe.

The Vulcan led group of firms now had ample experience and the workforce at Crewe had a team of experienced men from their own firm at Horwich, and Vulcan’s factory at Newton-le-Willows to help train them. Each tank would take hundreds of man-hours to make, some of it highly skilled work, and it was a complex beast to put together. Now that they’d been working on preparing Crewe and its workforce for six months, the management were able to answer the queries coming from the Ministry of Supply that production of tanks would be on schedule for beginning at the beginning of 1941. As to production numbers, if there were no problems, it was believed that Crewe would manage about 12 tanks per month from around April 1941. The specific order for Matilda IIs from Crewe was for 160 tanks to be delivered by the end of 1941. It was likely that they wouldn’t complete the order on time, but they were doing their best to make it as close to the deadline as possible.
The fact that the tanks at Arras had done very well against the Germans had been well publicised, and there was no problem with motivation about getting started.

22 August 1940. Luton, England.

Vauxhall, with the help of the design team at Woolwich were working assiduously on the A22 Infantry Tank specification. Managing Director of Vauxhall Motors, C. J. Bartlett, was now beginning to look, as the parent firm for A22 production group, for other British companies that would be able to join them in building the tank once it was fully designed. With so many companies being caught up in war work, it felt that Vauxhall was coming late to the party. With help from the Ministry of Supply, Bartlett had written to a number of engineering firms to invite them to participate in making components or assembling complete tanks. Broom & Wade; Beyer Peacock; Charles Roberts & Co; Dennis Bros; Gloucester Railway; and Newton Chambers had all responded positively and were all doing the preparatory work of planning how and where they would build tanks, with whom; what the production timescales would be and when they could start and how many tanks they might produce per month. As with Vulcan, Vickers, and Mechanization & Aero, the other parent firms, Vauxhall would have to deal with the fact that none of these firms had any experience of building tanks, but then, neither did Vauxhall.

The Prime Minister had wanted to order 500 A22s ‘off the drawing board’, but the War Office thought it best to limit the order to three prototypes in the meantime, the first of which was expected in December. A lot would depend on how the prototypes did in their testing and whether they would provide the army with a worthwhile tank for the order be fulfilled. Since Vickers was also promoting the follow up to the Valiant Mark I, the Victor, there was real competition for the next generation of infantry tank. The Infantry Tanks Mark II (Matilda II) and Mark III (Valiant I) had proven their worth on the battlefield, so the A22 had a lot to live up to.

The A22 specification called for almost 4-inchs of armour (100mm) at the front and three inches (76mm) on the sides (76mm). Vauxhall intended the hull to consist of machineable armour on a milled steel frame, which would allow production to be easier. The plan was for the turret to be cast. The armament on the A22, similar to the French Char B1-bis, was to consist of a 2pdr in the turret firing Armour Piercing, with a co-axial machine-gun; and the new 3" howitzer in the hull, firing High Explosive shells. It wasn’t clear when the 6-pdr gun would be available, so the planning was for the turret to designed for the 2-pdr.

There was a potential problem with the engine. Vauxhall planned to use the Bedford twin six engine, probably the most powerful petrol engine available without going to an engine that was designed for aircraft, like the Napier Lion and the Liberty engine. With the RAF locked in battle with the Luftwaffe on a daily basis, there weren’t any aircraft engines going spare. The Bedford would provide 350hp to a tank whose weight was likely to be around 38.5 tons. With less than ten horsepower per ton, it was likely that the tank would have a road speed of about 17mph, no improvement on the current Matilda II and much slower than the current Valiant Mark I.

The Merritt-Brown transmission was another potential problem. So far it had only undergone rudimentary trials, and while it looked like it could be an excellent system, it would take a while to mature. Putting it on a brand-new tank ran the risk of delaying production while the ‘teething troubles’ were fixed. Assuming the prototypes were acceptable, the War Office were under pressure to get the tank into production as soon as possible. Even the best estimations put that as being possible from Spring 1941. Less than a year from concept to production was a recipe for disaster, something that Vauxhall desperately wanted to avoid.

NB text in italic differs from OTL. Sorry this is so long winded but I wanted to show the expansion of the tank building capability that was going on in 1940/41.
There's no real current difference in the A15 situation, though a meeting like this might have been a bit later than August, the bad news from America puts OTL date for this as November.
Leyland and English Electric are different because they're building the Valiant I* instead of the Covenanter. There are therefore ahead of OTL schedule by some months, and production rates here are likely higher than OTL because the constant changes to the Covenanter slowed production down. Leyland also built Churchills at Chertsey, here they'll build Valiant/Victors, not sure if the factory was as big as suggested here.
North British Locomotives don't build the Tetrarch OTL, but the production numbers and timetable are about the same as OTL from Metro-Cammell (which means they can focus on Valiant I*). But NBL did build about 25 Matildas a month eventually.
LMS Crewe built Covenanters, but here they'll build Matilda IIs.

Vauxhall's problems with the Churchill were intensified by Churchill wanting them yesterday. With the Valiant plus the Matilda as Infantry tanks, and the Victor on the horizon, maybe the A22 can mature before production. David Fletcher in The Great Tank Scandal quotes an engineer who remarked when told there'd be no prototypes said, 'on the contrary, there'll be 500!'
 
The A22 specification called for almost 4-inchs of armour (100mm) at the front and three inches (76mm) on the sides (76mm). Vauxhall intended the hull to consist of machineable armour on a milled steel frame, which would allow production to be easier.
"mild" steel frame?

Good insight into just how fiddly and complex tank production is, and why it takes so long for a tank to go from prototype to production to being available in useful numbers. They're literally having to build the factories and train the workforce as they go, and every delay cascades down the chain.
 
Another good update, really showing the work having to be put in to get production up to speed. Once its done Britain will see ots tank Production skyrocket.

Looks like Nuffield might get left behind a bit though and by the time the A15 is ready it may be too late. Potentially a source of hulls for SPG's and SPAAG's etc once the A9 and A10 are used up if the Valiant isn't converted?
 
Good to see the scaling up. How many more tanks will they be getting over OTL?

Actually, that makes me wonder, with tank production so high, will we see more armoured units than OTL? Will some end up in Burma? That'd be a nasty surprise for the Japanese.
 
Good to see the scaling up. How many more tanks will they be getting over OTL?

Actually, that makes me wonder, with tank production so high, will we see more armoured units than OTL? Will some end up in Burma? That'd be a nasty surprise for the Japanese.

A lot will depend on North Africa, Crete and Greece on if tanks get sent to the Far East. The main candidate will be the Matilda II, maybe in TTL she will be known as the Queen of the Jungle rather than the desert.

Be interesting if some get to Malaya before the Japanese attack.
 
A lot will depend on North Africa, Crete and Greece on if tanks get sent to the Far East. The main candidate will be the Matilda II, maybe in TTL she will be known as the Queen of the Jungle rather than the desert.

Be interesting if some get to Malaya before the Japanese attack.
I know we've all talked about sending this or that tank to Malaya but unless someone who knows tanks is sent there to have a look at things then it's unlikely to happen. The War Office thinks Malaya is mostly impassable jungle and unsuitable for tanks and unless someone looks at what's there and tells them otherwise that's not going to change.
 
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That's why I suggested Burma rather than Malaya, the front will last long enough for at least some information about the state of the terrain to get back to London.
 

marathag

Banned
Something that the Vickers team thought was a clever idea was that the army had been approached by the company to make links with the workforce who were building tanks for them. In a piece of clever propaganda, the Valiant Mark I (the other two were in America), which bore the scars of battle getting the convoy of rations to the troops at Dunkirk from Calais, had been brought to Stafford. The crew of the tank told their story and let the workers see something of how the tanks they would be building would be used. This had gone down very well, and the army was now keen on doing the same at all the other tank factories.
A lady who had been a 'Rosie the Riveter' during the war on B-25s, that one time at the plant had a captured Japanese plane brought by on a flatbed, and let the girls examine it
Said that from what she knew, it wasn't well build by their standards, far thinner skin and maybe half the number of rivets attaching a panel from what they were doing for NAA products.
My Grandma, who worked in a munitions plant, said the only thing memorable thing she got besides besides the paycheck, was red tinged hair from the explosive vapors from filling shells.
 
I know we've all talked about sending this or that tank to Malaya but unless someone who knows tanks is sent there to have a look at things then it's unlikely to happen. The War Office thinks Malaya is mostly impassable jungle and unsuitable for tanks and unless someone looks at what's there and tells them otherwise that's not going to change.

Thats why I caveated with the course of the war dictating things. There is a possibility that things in North Africa rap up in 1941 ITTL, if that happens or things are going well enough then more troops can be spared to send out east. If that is the case it will possibly be the Australian and New Zealand troops from the med. They will have enough experience working with tanks to push for it with authority.
 
Well if Crete ends up a British victory the British will have 10,000+ more troops to send to any trouble spots.

Actually that has me wondering, once British tank production starts scaling up, could they possibly sell a few dozen tanks (A9/10/13 most likely) to Greece? OTL Greece had all of 20 tanks going in, so imagine if they had 50 or more ITTL?
 
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Well if Crete ends up a British victory the British will have 10,000+ more troops to send to any trouble spots.

Actually that has me wondering, once British tank production starts scaling up, could they possibly sell a few dozen tanks (A9/10/13 most likely) to Greece? OTL Greece had all of 20 tanks going in, so imagine if they had 50 or more ITTL?
This brings me back to something I've mentioned before, captured Italian equipment. If there's enough British tanks in the Middle East that they don't need to use the Italian tanks they capture they can be sent elsewhere and I'm sure the Greeks would be happy to receive some of them. Whether they could make effective use of them given their very limited experience with tanks is another matter so some training teams would also be needed. Otl the Greeks did make use of captured Italian tankettes.

Not that anything can save Greece if the Germans intervene.
 
No, but they could bleed the Germans a bit more.

Biggest problem the greeks will have in doing that is stubbornness. Think it was something like 10 divisions were cut off by the German advance because they refused to withdraw and give the Italian's a 'victory' they didn't deserve. They ended up surrendering to the Germans as supplies ran low.
 

Orry

Donor
Monthly Donor
I know we've all talked about sending this or that tank to Malaya but unless someone who knows tanks is sent there to have a look at things then it's unlikely to happen. The War Office thinks Malaya is mostly impassable jungle and unsuitable for tanks and unless someone looks at what's there and tells them otherwise that's not going to change.

Somebody middle ranking needs a nice injury that gets them 6 months light duties

They need to get sent out there to get some staff experience but already have good relations with senior armour types back in blighty or at a push the middle east

They write back about their supprise at the many rubber plantations that have replaced the jungle they expected to see with a few pictures
 
i think changing malaya situation is abit hard considering the scale of the changes of the timeline sofar altough doing better is very possible hopefully with better commanders and some extra training. But alot more succesful burma campaign could be possible instead wich could affect the war situation more since hopefully the burma road could be re opened in 43 ? The americans and even the brits can send stuff to the chinese to fight the japanese with . So there is a slight chance of avoiding communist china thanks to that . And burma was one of the few places americans or alteast their high command would be happy to defend thanks to the link to china mainly if the 1942 campaign wasnt as disastrous.
 
Biggest problem the greeks will have in doing that is stubbornness. Think it was something like 10 divisions were cut off by the German advance because they refused to withdraw and give the Italian's a 'victory' they didn't deserve. They ended up surrendering to the Germans as supplies ran low.
Okay, so not much can be done then? A pity. Still, I suspect Britain will have more tanks in play this time around, which may hurt the Germans a bit more.
 
Dangit Vauxhaull, just put the 3-inch gun in the bloody turret of the A-22! Great update, the UK's tank building industry is now very much in the starting position for the marathon that will consume the UK's industry for the next 4 years.
 
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