Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

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Glyndwr01

Banned
Why are they not just driving tanks and arty and other kit directly onto the three massive train transporters? Looks like a pretty easy job. Natural defence of the harbour basin by the cliffs and hills around.

Run them in at night - you're going to have THOUSANDS of loggy and RN types with experience of ultra-heavy loading of channel transports from WW1 kicking about. PIece of pish.

Also, wasn't this how they got the kit over in the first place? I would have thought this method would have been vastly faster and easier into Calais and Boulogne than craned from the hold?

Given the loading capacity of Calais you're going to be looking for excuses not to be loading remaining kit at this point.


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I already suggested that.
 

marathag

Banned
The Vickers M1934 for Finland used the 76x505R case that was a match for the Bofors ltK/28 AA gun, Tony Williams tables has it credited for 770 fps performance with a 6.5kg HE shell . Finnish sources credit 750-790m/s, and had an AP round, seemingly 6.5kg, but not available until 1942.
Those pages state that the Vickers used the 505mm case length, not the 605mm used by some of their other Bofors 76mm guns

Vickers may not have offered AP at first, since both Romania and Finland developed AP rounds after getting those 75mm and 76mm AA guns from Vickers after WWII started
 
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Why are they not just driving tanks and arty and other kit directly onto the three massive train transporters? Looks like a pretty easy job. Natural defence of the harbour basin by the cliffs and hills around.
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IOTL the train ferries had all been grabbed as minelayers. And in theory you could do the same at Dunkirk, but they didn't IOTL for some reason.

There's also restrictions imposed by the tidal ranges at both ends, for instance, Dover had to use a separate specialized dock (with gates, pumps, etc.) instead of the main port.
 
IOTL the train ferries had all been grabbed as minelayers. And in theory you could do the same at Dunkirk, but they didn't IOTL for some reason.

There's also restrictions imposed by the tidal ranges at both ends, for instance, Dover had to use a separate specialized dock (with gates, pumps, etc.) instead of the main port.
So essentially we need TTL Arras to be effective enough to allow Allied (BEF) high command to recover their senses after being knocked silly by two weeks of getting chased out of Belgium and start establishing some sensible withdrawal plans on the ground. It seems Dynamo was an effective plan from the RN side to move bodies but if enough of a defensive crust is formed around the channel ports by TTL effective BEF armoured formations coupled with high quality French troops withdrawing South was there another iteration of it available?

I just cant see the only option here being "abandon everything!" if you've bought yourself an extra few weeks to clear the embarkation areas of all the rear echelon troops.
 
I still think that the proposed 3 incher shouldnt be a goal for the valiant unless for some reason allan considers a valiant mark 2 as a bit of a bigger tank to fit the turret into otherwise dont bother and stick with the 6pounder or the proposed rebored 75 mm one for the valiant please . Otherwise just do the proposed 3 incher for the valiant successor tank for about 1943, probably named vanguard as suggested . Maybe even leave room for it to be able to be upgraded even further .

Then for the end of the war and post war , get the centurion equilevant running around earlier .

As i said earlier , maybe with vickers being abit annoyed by the orders going away from them even for the upcoming valiant . They could suggest a infantry carrier to manufacture instead since it shouldnt be as complicated for the non tank manufacturers? They could even design it and could even base it on a exisiting hull ? This could also be what the americans build for the british maybe or the canadians do in addition to a valiant plant maybe ? Also india , australia and maybe south africa might be interested in building those?

And as i said earlier the infantry carriers at first should be for the accompanying tank division infantry so they can keep up and arent as vunerable like regular trucks and stuff are. And eventually or atleat around d-day for most of the infantry troops the british send they could be in infantry carriers maybe to keep casualties down maybe ?

Also as some have mentioned , even token amount of tanks especially matildas or valiants being sent malaysia before invasion might change things cause japanese tanks and anti tanks tactics were pathetic. This could be in part explained that alot more stuff got evacuated in otl ? And the invasion panic will be alot weaker so hopefully the british react abit better than in otl aswell is another reason?
 
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I don't think the train ferries could be used at Dunkirk because there was no easy way of docking them, no fast way of loading them off the beach and they were too big and slow to use the mole efficiently.
None of which applies to Calais.

I'd see loading as something like this :
(1) Rear echelon and partly trained troops; non-combat mobile gear stuffed with troops on the train ferries. (priority to the more valuable kit). If the shipping and time allows, some stuff can be loaded in holds overnight, sailing with a full load of troops before dawn.
(2) Troops and kit not needed because the perimeter is fully manned; if they can get it off, quite possibly some artillery and supplies (again, depends on how much time they have)
(3) Combat troops; kit only if they have time and its not needed for defence. Seriously destroy anything they wont be taking back.
(4) Rearguard. Followed by the RE and RN enthusiastically reducing the port facilities to rubble.

Its going to be very dependent on how much time they have - I could make a case anywhere between 2 days and 6 weeks, really. Anything over a week or so means more kit back, and longer for the factories to make more, so when the siege ends there is far less of a panic. Especially as its likely the Germans will not be seen as quite the supermen they appeared after stuffing France, and the RN/RAF will have a far better idea of exactly how good the LW is at sinking destroyers and light craft.
 
Something I finally noticed: the Valiant's turret has a 60" turret ring, can use the 6 pdr and has 70mm of armor basis.
Assuming the future Cruiser tank keeps the 60" turret ring and armor requirements of the OTL Cromwell, wouldn't it be simpler to outsource the turret from Vickers instead of bothering with a new design, even with just some modifications? This would save a lot of manpower and time to work on the hull itself. After all the A30 Challenger used a turret design outsourced from the TOG 2.
 
Something I finally noticed: the Valiant's turret has a 60" turret ring, can use the 6 pdr and has 70mm of armor basis.
Assuming the future Cruiser tank keeps the 60" turret ring and armor requirements of the OTL Cromwell, wouldn't it be simpler to outsource the turret from Vickers instead of bothering with a new design, even with just some modifications? This would save a lot of manpower and time to work on the hull itself. After all the A30 Challenger used a turret design outsourced from the TOG 2.
The Comet tank only had a 64" turret ring to handle the 77mm. Interestingly close to the Valiant
 
The Comet tank only had a 64" turret ring to handle the 77mm. Interestingly close to the Valiant
Personally, I think it would make a lot of sense to have Vickers take over the gun/turret job given that it will ensure proper integration of both components. The Valiant's turret design isn't too different from that of a Comet's, only smaller. If a larger version for the HV gun appears it would be rather easy to ensure commonality between the Cruiser and the new Valiant. This is assuming that the War Office still desires two classes, especially if development of future variants of the Valiant focuses more on extra armour and a low speed, but stable suspension. Meanwhile the Christie suspension for the Cruisers, for all its flaws, is more suited for a fast tank.

All of this would allow the companies working on Cruisers to focus R&D resources on engines, hulls, or turrets designed for other weapons. In particular, a 17 pdr one as the British really wanted a 17 pdr cruiser more than an infantry tank.
 

marathag

Banned
The Comet tank only had a 64" turret ring to handle the 77mm. Interestingly close to the Valiant
The British had nearly all the building block bits to do a Comet in 1940
Mid powered (for 1944) 3" gun
high powered engine, Lion vs Meteor
What they were missing was the Merritt-Brown gearbox-transaxle to allow easy maneuvering, unlike the Sherman that steered like a bulldozer, or T-34, that wished it was as easy to drive as a bulldozer
last crew ergonomics, that to be honest, the Comet didn't do too well, but better than most early war Brritish examples, but had the TC being a TC, and not a gunner or loader too, excepting the A9/A10 that had proper three man turrets
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
Being stuck in lockdown, and a bachelor of maturity, I have too much time to think, and no one other than the gentleman here to debate ideas with. I find this Time Line very interesting, and I am reading it with much enjoyment and a little frustration. So let us take the time to look at some facts, in regards to the upcoming events in France once the British and eventually world dive into the hell that was World War Two. I think we can all agree that up until the Battle of Arras, there will be very little change in the events of the Time Line, other than the British being equipped with more and significantly better tanks than they had in Our Time Line. The same well meaning clowns will be in charge of British policy as was, and they will make the same mistakes. Winston with his mercurial temperament, will be First Lord of the Admiralty, Chamberlain who was both very physically sick and desperate to avoid war PM, while that permanent nervous Nelly and gray eminence Halifax will be ever present.

In 1939, having exhausted all other options Britain will reluctantly go to war, and the recently cobbled together BEF be sent to France, as was its predecessor in 1914. The BEF of 1939 was as was its predecessor in 1914, without doubt the best equipped and trained army in Europe at the time, but small very small. It from a nation that had a population of 48 million, six times that of Belgian, it fielded an army that was 25%, the size. OK, the Belgian army, much like the French wasn’t as lavished equipped, but it was four times the size of the BEF. There can be no doubt that man for man the British Tommy of 1939/40, was as good if not better than any other troops in the world, apart from some with special climate or terrain training. Ski troops, mountain troops, possibly some who specialised in jungle environments. He was tough, professional, and well trained by the standards of the day, especially in musketry, just like his father had been in 1914. This force was deficient in just three areas of equipment, it didn’t have any SMG’s, gagster weapons old bean don’t need them, it’s tanks were ether to light and unreliable, or fantastic but unreliable and short of motive power, and in very short supply, Matilda II. And it lacked any modern heavy artillery, as a result of under investment during the inter war years. Britain wasn’t going to get involved in an European war again thank you very much, and didn’t need big guns for Imperial policing. The only nation that had an extensive modern heavy artillery park was France, Germany thanks to the Versailles treaty and the development of the Luftwaffe, was deficient too.

In August of 1939, the BEF embarked to take up its allotted positions in France, as agreed to by the British government. It did not sail from Dover to Calais, other than a small number of Staff Officers, it went from Southampton, as had its predecessor in 1914. Dover in 39 was a small ferry port that foot passengers, the overnight train ferry, and handled local cargo in addition, mostly coal from British coal fields. The ferries it handled were small, there just wasn’t the traffic that there is now. And the only Ro Ro ferry was a train ferry, which required a closed dock to load unload in. Unlike cars and trucks, trains do not like steep ramps to negotiate, and so the ferry has to be brought to a height equal to that of the railway, and this took time and power for the pumps in the dock. Other than that the rich, very few British people went overseas to Europe, and if they took their motorcar, it had to be loaded on the ferry by crane, a slow and difficult task. Dover was linked to Britain by one double track railway, and one three lane road. Southampton had at the time, five separate double or better railway lines, and could make use of three, three lane roads. Note that the BEF didn’t disembark in Calais, they went to Le Havre and Cherbourg, both like Southampton, large commercial ports with extensive land links. They also had the big cranes able to handle the large loads that the military required. Few dock cranes were rated for loads greater than five tons, as this is the days of break bulk loading. In 1939, the standard dock cranes could handle anything up to a 6 in howitzer, but not its towing vehicle, the 3.7 in AA gun would need a heavy crane. Note I admit to a mistake in a previous post, the AA gun of the BEF, was the 3.7, not the 3 in 20 cwt, apologies. I seriously doubt that ether Calais or Dunkirk had many heavy lift cranes in 1939/40, and slinging and loading even standard loads requires skilled dock workers, you are not going to get much heavy equipment out during an evacuation. The British up until the scramble to evacuate used Calais for two things, personal movements, chaps going on leave, transferring to another posting, and mail. As it could link into the mail trains in the UK, and provide a swift service for personal mail for the troops.

Note prior to the sixties, most British people who travelled to the continent would have gone through Dunkirk in an organised group, to see the WWI Battlefields and grave sites. So we get to the 10th of May 1940, provided no butterflies ITTL, this is when the so called phoney war turned hot, people always forget that there never was a phoney war at sea. The BEF under its commander Lord Gort advanced into Belgian, in accordance to the Dyle plan, as had been agreed to with the French high command. Gort wasn’t master of his or his armies fate, he was a junior commander to the French high command, with only ten devisions under his command. While he wasn’t a big brain, he was not as one former Minister for War thought, utterly brainless and unable to grasp the simplest problem. Basically the two just couldn’t stand the sight of each other, and I have no doubt talked past each other. Gort was responsible bright for a British officer especially one who was a Guardsmen, at least he wasn’t a cavalry man. He by the standards of the day was responsible young at 53, and in comparison to his French commanders Gamelin 68, didn’t need an afternoon nap, but he was by today’s standards over age, and lacking in education. He wasn’t happy with ether the standard of the French army or its high command. Were as the British Army had even during the worst of the winter weather kept itself busy busy, with various work projects and training, the French appeared to do very little. His failure to understand the difference between the professional British Army and the Conscript French Army, was something that all the British officers had, until they had to deal with conscripts themselves. What you can get regulars to do is very different from what you can get conscripts to do.

He also had serous reservations about a number of the restrictions that he French high command had placed upon his forces. The worst of which was the banning of radio/wireless exercises, the French were paranoid about the ability of the Germans to intercept radio signals, and gain vital information. But good Guardsman that he was, and not really trusting the politicians in the UK, who had short changed the army for years, then stuck them with a job that they weren’t truly ready for, he kept his thoughts to himself and did his best. And so he advanced to his allotted place on the Dyle river, and prepared to receive the enemy. Repulsing the first German attack, he was upset to find out that the Belgian Fort at Eben Emael, had been taken and things didn’t seem to be going anywhere like planned. Communications with the French high command and his French superior were to say the least problematic, and he couldn’t seem to get any sense out of anyone, including London. As things quickly begin to fall apart around him, and he and his army were forced to retire in some confusion, while under increasing air attack, which the RAF seemed to be able to do little about. I personally believe that by the 20th he had a very good idea that events were completely out of control, and were going to be a complete disaster. And so one the 22nd he made up his mind that, despite what London was telling him, and the French weren’t, his duty was to save as much of the BEF, as he could. This was a courageous decision, but given the circumstances on the ground as he saw them, the right one. Now let us look at the situation on the ground as of the 20th, the BEF is in Belgian north east of Dunkirk, and north of Calais, in a retreat to the sea, it would have to bypass Dunkirk to get to Calais. The roads are poor, they tend, much like in England with London, to head to an from Paris, and there is away from the coast very little cross country.

The BEF, is in two parts, the fighting formations and their immediate support elements in Belgian, while the third line elements are around the big commercial ports far to the south. He has been cut off from his third line by the German Sickle Cut, and needs to put a block force in to his southern flank. At this time there is no British garrison in Calais or Boulogna, and the land between Calais, Boulogna, and Cambrai is very hilly with no major road running through it. If he can give the Germans hard punch in the nose, and get some blocking force into Calais and Boulogna, he can cut the coast road and secure his southern flank. And it is now that the butterfly’s of a more successful battle of Arras, can really start the flutter their wings. Given that the result of the Germans getting a complete work over on the 21st at Arras, one that requires them to put a halt to all activities in the area on the 22nd while they sort out the mess that has been made of their forces. The British should be able to garrison both Boulogna and Calais, while beginning to sort out things in Dunkirk. If the complete Guards Brigade with its supporting units of artillery and engineers, can be deployed to Boulogna, and the 30th infantry Brigade plus 3rd RTR, with all their equipment been landed at Calais. And they had had until the 23rd before being attacked, things would have been very different, while they could not have prevented the Germans from taking ether port, or provided a route out for the BEF. They could have imposed a major delay on the German forces coming from the south, giving the British at Dunkirk more time, to get the useless mouths out and prepare the defences of Dunkirk.

So why weren’t the train ferries used to move the BEF’s tanks and lorries in 1939? The principal ports allocated to the BEF by the French were Le Havre and Cherbourg, as they linked up easily with the principal port of embarkation Southampton. Sending a small part of your force through a minor port with poor connections, to one or two minor ports with poor connections, apart from the bulk of your army is a very bad idea. And the French, the big dog, and the ones calling the tune didn’t want the British using ether Dunkirk or Calais, as it would mean that the British supply line crossed that of the French 7th army which was to the right of the BEF. The French didn’t want the British with their right flank against the Channel, they wanted them between two French armies and under French command. Why Dunkirk not Calais? The first major road that the retreating BEF come to as they withdrew from Belgian goes to Dunkirk not Calais. Dunkirk because of the numinous water obstacles around it offers better defensive lines, and there is no high ground for the attackers to use. Much of the land is ether low lying or even beneath high tide level and can be flooded, as it was. Try driving your tank through three feet of water, over a sea of mud, while you infantry try to keep up. Given just two days extra, so much can be done to better prepare the evacuation. And end up with a much better result, including getting more of the French rear guard out. Bringing one or two big ships down from the north to carry out a night time bombardment of the German positions. And giving the RAF time to get its act together, and provide better air coverage.

In addition with the Germans tied down around Dunkirk, and fighting the French, you will have more time to get the over a hundred thousand third line troops out of the south. Given that the majority of the supplies captured by the Germans, were in the south not in the north with the BEF. You might be able to do more to deny them to the Germans especially the fuel, not just yours but also the French supply. And with luck you can get the RMS Lancastria, home in one peace saving at least five thousand lives.

RR.
 
I have to say reading the best part of twelve pages of debate about guns in their various forms, this made me laugh out loud!
Glad I could contribute a little something as a thank-you for this TL.

Since the discussion has now moved on to how things will play out in the Valiants intended area of operations, can I chip in my suggestion that the whole Arras/Rommel/Dunkirk-Calais thing is very played out IMO and it would be interesting to mix it up a little. Given that a lot of the mobility issues with OTL tanks is addressed (like a 100km road march putting most of them out of order) and the Brits very obviously have a tank fully equal to the Panzers, my vote is for the Brits to get fully gingered up with a desire to “Poland” the Germans right back.
They push up in support of Prioux, arrive in the aftermath of Hannut and let 3rd & 4th Panzer have it with all the barrels. Then you can have all sorts of lovely chaos while Army group B try to pick up the pieces of their front teeth, the Belgians get a moment to scurry about stabilising their lines, the BEF try to figure out if they should move for the Dyle, the Meuse, Gembloux or the Albert Canal, and absolutely whatever you want goes on at Sedan.

Last tanks to leave Belgium drive off the Antwerp docks onto a commandeered barge and head for Britain at 5 knots, gunfighting the Germans the whole way down the Scheldt in best Call of Duty fashion.
The Hollywood version can have Monty (Frank Sinatra) firing a Bren gun from atop the wheelhouse while being handed fresh magazines by smitten army nurse Grace Kelly.
 
Unfortunately the British forces are as bad as anyone else at remembering harsh lessons. You would have thought that the debacle and disaster that was RMS Lancastria would have been burnt so deep into both the RN and Army corporate memory that the same kind of mistake could never be repeated, what happens Bluff Cove 1982 happens! seriously someone should have hung for that cockup! rant over, I believe the train ferry dock at Dunkirk was blocked or damaged in an early bombing raid so the route for heavy kit withdrawals was blocked.
 
While I take your points about the train ferries, I don't think you underestimate the sheer advantage in speed and efficiency of loading ships at a quay rather than over a beach, or even tied up one at a time against a rickety wooden mole. It takes massiveky longer to load men off small craft, and it really isn't easy, even without them carrying anything (been there, done that).

In 1939, ships tie up, put down gangplanks, the troops walk up, they cast off and leave. The troops can carry their personal gear and light weapons with them - also many ships have a light crane (no, not destroyers) that can pick up stuff in a net and hoist it inboard while the men are embarking. This was how they handled luggage, its nothing new to them. Keeping things the way they are used to is a massive help in the sort of chaotic conditions things are likely to deteriorate into.

Now granted, there will be aircraft and artillery trying to make things hard for the British. But this time they will, at worst, have some days extra, and unlike Dunkirk the ships will be alongside the quay from Day 1, there wont be considerations about using a mole.
Ports tend to be built out of concrete; a bomb hit will certainly leave a hole, but this can be patched enough for men at least (after all, we have plenty of hands available). Unlike the single, very fragile, mole.

Getting off vehicles would be nice, but not a game changer in terms of combat power. I'd expect all the useful kit to be at the sharp end making the germans lives miserable. Same for stores - the heavy stuff (artillery shells) will be fired off. It would be nice to recover some of the more valuable stuff in short supply, electrical and mechanical things, but its nice, not necessary.
Ironically, given that the germans are at the front end of a long and still rather stretched supply line, the British troops will be far better supplied, likely for as long as the siege lasts.
Dover isn't a big port in 1940, true. But there are other small ports available, and while none have a great capacity, smaller ships can use them. After all, they got an awful lot of men home in OTL.

Of course, from the german army pov, having the BEF and a few French divisions holed up in the area isn't a bad thing - they can be held there by infantry while the panzers carry on south to destroy France. Its far too strong a position to be taken on the bounce, and the germans will know Calais is hardly a major port, so most of the men are trapped there. You need to remember the German mindset here - the sea is a boundary, not the highway the British considered it to be. Men with their backs to the sea are trapped and doomed. These things influence actions.
 
While the Country Regiments were often as much a social club, and had in the past been used to help maintain the persevered social order. It should be noted that it was the Yeomanry who were responsible for most of the deaths and injuries during the Peterloo massacre, unlike the 15th Hussars who tended to keep their discipline.
Hussars did as they were ordered.
Yeoman did as their order demanded.

it’s in Ireland and the other colonies that the powers learn how to police the metropolitan working class.

which is why Captain should be Colonel Smith is in a platoon and why Colonel Smythe is leading from the front in a squadron.

Smith won’t murder the Cairo Soldiers’ Parliament. Smythe will have done so before he starts considering.
 
Being stuck in lockdown, and a bachelor of maturity, I have too much time to think, and no one other than the gentleman here to debate ideas with. I find this Time Line very interesting, and I am reading it with much enjoyment and a little frustration. So let us take the time to look at some facts, in regards to the upcoming events in France once the British and eventually world dive into the hell that was World War Two. I think we can all agree that up until the Battle of Arras, there will be very little change in the events of the Time Line, other than the British being equipped with more and significantly better tanks than they had in Our Time Line. The same well meaning clowns will be in charge of British policy as was, and they will make the same mistakes. Winston with his mercurial temperament, will be First Lord of the Admiralty, Chamberlain who was both very physically sick and desperate to avoid war PM, while that permanent nervous Nelly and gray eminence Halifax will be ever present.

In 1939, having exhausted all other options Britain will reluctantly go to war, and the recently cobbled together BEF be sent to France, as was its predecessor in 1914. The BEF of 1939 was as was its predecessor in 1914, without doubt the best equipped and trained army in Europe at the time, but small very small. It from a nation that had a population of 48 million, six times that of Belgian, it fielded an army that was 25%, the size. OK, the Belgian army, much like the French wasn’t as lavished equipped, but it was four times the size of the BEF. There can be no doubt that man for man the British Tommy of 1939/40, was as good if not better than any other troops in the world, apart from some with special climate or terrain training. Ski troops, mountain troops, possibly some who specialised in jungle environments. He was tough, professional, and well trained by the standards of the day, especially in musketry, just like his father had been in 1914. This force was deficient in just three areas of equipment, it didn’t have any SMG’s, gagster weapons old bean don’t need them, it’s tanks were ether to light and unreliable, or fantastic but unreliable and short of motive power, and in very short supply, Matilda II. And it lacked any modern heavy artillery, as a result of under investment during the inter war years. Britain wasn’t going to get involved in an European war again thank you very much, and didn’t need big guns for Imperial policing. The only nation that had an extensive modern heavy artillery park was France, Germany thanks to the Versailles treaty and the development of the Luftwaffe, was deficient too.

In August of 1939, the BEF embarked to take up its allotted positions in France, as agreed to by the British government. It did not sail from Dover to Calais, other than a small number of Staff Officers, it went from Southampton, as had its predecessor in 1914. Dover in 39 was a small ferry port that foot passengers, the overnight train ferry, and handled local cargo in addition, mostly coal from British coal fields. The ferries it handled were small, there just wasn’t the traffic that there is now. And the only Ro Ro ferry was a train ferry, which required a closed dock to load unload in. Unlike cars and trucks, trains do not like steep ramps to negotiate, and so the ferry has to be brought to a height equal to that of the railway, and this took time and power for the pumps in the dock. Other than that the rich, very few British people went overseas to Europe, and if they took their motorcar, it had to be loaded on the ferry by crane, a slow and difficult task. Dover was linked to Britain by one double track railway, and one three lane road. Southampton had at the time, five separate double or better railway lines, and could make use of three, three lane roads. Note that the BEF didn’t disembark in Calais, they went to Le Havre and Cherbourg, both like Southampton, large commercial ports with extensive land links. They also had the big cranes able to handle the large loads that the military required. Few dock cranes were rated for loads greater than five tons, as this is the days of break bulk loading. In 1939, the standard dock cranes could handle anything up to a 6 in howitzer, but not its towing vehicle, the 3.7 in AA gun would need a heavy crane. Note I admit to a mistake in a previous post, the AA gun of the BEF, was the 3.7, not the 3 in 20 cwt, apologies. I seriously doubt that ether Calais or Dunkirk had many heavy lift cranes in 1939/40, and slinging and loading even standard loads requires skilled dock workers, you are not going to get much heavy equipment out during an evacuation. The British up until the scramble to evacuate used Calais for two things, personal movements, chaps going on leave, transferring to another posting, and mail. As it could link into the mail trains in the UK, and provide a swift service for personal mail for the troops.

Note prior to the sixties, most British people who travelled to the continent would have gone through Dunkirk in an organised group, to see the WWI Battlefields and grave sites. So we get to the 10th of May 1940, provided no butterflies ITTL, this is when the so called phoney war turned hot, people always forget that there never was a phoney war at sea. The BEF under its commander Lord Gort advanced into Belgian, in accordance to the Dyle plan, as had been agreed to with the French high command. Gort wasn’t master of his or his armies fate, he was a junior commander to the French high command, with only ten devisions under his command. While he wasn’t a big brain, he was not as one former Minister for War thought, utterly brainless and unable to grasp the simplest problem. Basically the two just couldn’t stand the sight of each other, and I have no doubt talked past each other. Gort was responsible bright for a British officer especially one who was a Guardsmen, at least he wasn’t a cavalry man. He by the standards of the day was responsible young at 53, and in comparison to his French commanders Gamelin 68, didn’t need an afternoon nap, but he was by today’s standards over age, and lacking in education. He wasn’t happy with ether the standard of the French army or its high command. Were as the British Army had even during the worst of the winter weather kept itself busy busy, with various work projects and training, the French appeared to do very little. His failure to understand the difference between the professional British Army and the Conscript French Army, was something that all the British officers had, until they had to deal with conscripts themselves. What you can get regulars to do is very different from what you can get conscripts to do.

He also had serous reservations about a number of the restrictions that he French high command had placed upon his forces. The worst of which was the banning of radio/wireless exercises, the French were paranoid about the ability of the Germans to intercept radio signals, and gain vital information. But good Guardsman that he was, and not really trusting the politicians in the UK, who had short changed the army for years, then stuck them with a job that they weren’t truly ready for, he kept his thoughts to himself and did his best. And so he advanced to his allotted place on the Dyle river, and prepared to receive the enemy. Repulsing the first German attack, he was upset to find out that the Belgian Fort at Eben Emael, had been taken and things didn’t seem to be going anywhere like planned. Communications with the French high command and his French superior were to say the least problematic, and he couldn’t seem to get any sense out of anyone, including London. As things quickly begin to fall apart around him, and he and his army were forced to retire in some confusion, while under increasing air attack, which the RAF seemed to be able to do little about. I personally believe that by the 20th he had a very good idea that events were completely out of control, and were going to be a complete disaster. And so one the 22nd he made up his mind that, despite what London was telling him, and the French weren’t, his duty was to save as much of the BEF, as he could. This was a courageous decision, but given the circumstances on the ground as he saw them, the right one. Now let us look at the situation on the ground as of the 20th, the BEF is in Belgian north east of Dunkirk, and north of Calais, in a retreat to the sea, it would have to bypass Dunkirk to get to Calais. The roads are poor, they tend, much like in England with London, to head to an from Paris, and there is away from the coast very little cross country.

The BEF, is in two parts, the fighting formations and their immediate support elements in Belgian, while the third line elements are around the big commercial ports far to the south. He has been cut off from his third line by the German Sickle Cut, and needs to put a block force in to his southern flank. At this time there is no British garrison in Calais or Boulogna, and the land between Calais, Boulogna, and Cambrai is very hilly with no major road running through it. If he can give the Germans hard punch in the nose, and get some blocking force into Calais and Boulogna, he can cut the coast road and secure his southern flank. And it is now that the butterfly’s of a more successful battle of Arras, can really start the flutter their wings. Given that the result of the Germans getting a complete work over on the 21st at Arras, one that requires them to put a halt to all activities in the area on the 22nd while they sort out the mess that has been made of their forces. The British should be able to garrison both Boulogna and Calais, while beginning to sort out things in Dunkirk. If the complete Guards Brigade with its supporting units of artillery and engineers, can be deployed to Boulogna, and the 30th infantry Brigade plus 3rd RTR, with all their equipment been landed at Calais. And they had had until the 23rd before being attacked, things would have been very different, while they could not have prevented the Germans from taking ether port, or provided a route out for the BEF. They could have imposed a major delay on the German forces coming from the south, giving the British at Dunkirk more time, to get the useless mouths out and prepare the defences of Dunkirk.

So why weren’t the train ferries used to move the BEF’s tanks and lorries in 1939? The principal ports allocated to the BEF by the French were Le Havre and Cherbourg, as they linked up easily with the principal port of embarkation Southampton. Sending a small part of your force through a minor port with poor connections, to one or two minor ports with poor connections, apart from the bulk of your army is a very bad idea. And the French, the big dog, and the ones calling the tune didn’t want the British using ether Dunkirk or Calais, as it would mean that the British supply line crossed that of the French 7th army which was to the right of the BEF. The French didn’t want the British with their right flank against the Channel, they wanted them between two French armies and under French command. Why Dunkirk not Calais? The first major road that the retreating BEF come to as they withdrew from Belgian goes to Dunkirk not Calais. Dunkirk because of the numinous water obstacles around it offers better defensive lines, and there is no high ground for the attackers to use. Much of the land is ether low lying or even beneath high tide level and can be flooded, as it was. Try driving your tank through three feet of water, over a sea of mud, while you infantry try to keep up. Given just two days extra, so much can be done to better prepare the evacuation. And end up with a much better result, including getting more of the French rear guard out. Bringing one or two big ships down from the north to carry out a night time bombardment of the German positions. And giving the RAF time to get its act together, and provide better air coverage.

In addition with the Germans tied down around Dunkirk, and fighting the French, you will have more time to get the over a hundred thousand third line troops out of the south. Given that the majority of the supplies captured by the Germans, were in the south not in the north with the BEF. You might be able to do more to deny them to the Germans especially the fuel, not just yours but also the French supply. And with luck you can get the RMS Lancastria, home in one peace saving at least five thousand lives.

RR.

That little cookies been keeping you up eh? ;)
 
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