Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
Type 273 Radar is OTL added June-July, and I will need to take a closer look at Op.Halberd, but it too looks like it follows original course of events.
According to wikipedia (yes, I know) it was Type 271 that was added in June/July, after 4x282 and 4x285 added in May.
Although 273 does seem more plausible, as it was a version of 271 designed for cruisers and battleships.
According to this:
June-July 1941: Undergoes repairs at Rosyth. The three UP rocket launchers located on top of "B" and "Y" turrets are removed and replaced with two "Pom-Pom" mounts. A new Type 273 surface search radar is added.
The other one folks didn't speak that much about was the modernisation/refit of the Hermes. And whilst she might not be available for when the fighting starts in the Far East, and this is a stealthy little upgrade of the PoW. Also the hot conditions noted might see some changes to the ammo which had started to degrade in the hot conditions on the journey out to Singers with the Pom-Pom's having significant issues.
The Hermes's upgrade makes her a far more useful unit, not something that can get into a slap fight with the Akagi but she's a damn sight more useful than she was OTL with that fit.
Also there's the question of what will happen with the ships in the region. On paper the ABDA force was pretty large.
1 Battleship
1 Battlecruiser
2 heavy cruisers
10 light cruisers
33 destroyers
But most of the DD's and CL's were old ships with only 4 being post WW2 construction designs the Boise, De Ruyter, Tromp and Perth, the rest are very much WW1 designs. The DD's are also the same with many being older ships, so on paper its a large force but most of its ships are old, probably quite well worn out and lacking in AA defences. This also extends to the Repulse, she needed a refit, and her AA fit wasn't the best.
Even massed together the ABDA forces cannot resist the IJN, if they mass together it will attract everything that flies to them and in penny packets they risk being overwhelmed, so what to do?
I'd pull everything back to Ceylon and meet up with other ships in the region, Cornwall, Dorsetshire and so forth, and wait for the moment to strike. Although this would be probably politically unacceptable so maybe mass all the ships together at Singapore?
The Hermes's upgrade makes her a far more useful unit, not something that can get into a slap fight with the Akagi but she's a damn sight more useful than she was OTL with that fit.
Also there's the question of what will happen with the ships in the region. On paper the ABDA force was pretty large.
1 Battleship
1 Battlecruiser
2 heavy cruisers
10 light cruisers
33 destroyers
But most of the DD's and CL's were old ships with only 4 being post WW2 construction designs the Boise, De Ruyter, Tromp and Perth, the rest are very much WW1 designs. The DD's are also the same with many being older ships, so on paper its a large force but most of its ships are old, probably quite well worn out and lacking in AA defences. This also extends to the Repulse, she needed a refit, and her AA fit wasn't the best.
Even massed together the ABDA forces cannot resist the IJN, if they mass together it will attract everything that flies to them and in penny packets they risk being overwhelmed, so what to do?
I'd pull everything back to Ceylon and meet up with other ships in the region, Cornwall, Dorsetshire and so forth, and wait for the moment to strike. Although this would be probably politically unacceptable so maybe mass all the ships together at Singapore?
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Hi TK,
Can you share source for this?
Not doubting you.....just looking for new reference to bookmark as the more we have, the better.
M.
🍻Another link that states it was a Type 273 not 271.Hi TK,
Can you share source for this?
Not doubting you.....just looking for new reference to bookmark as the more we have, the better.
M.
Great find. Seems pretty clear to me you're 100% right and Wikipedia is wrong.
🍻 For those interested, scroll down to 1941 - July.
"1st to 18th - At Rosyth under repair
Whilst in dockyard hands she was fitted with the first radar Type 273, a big ship surface search version of the 10 cm Type 271."
The Houston was not worn out, any more then any other Northampton Class Cruiser. Commissioned in 1930, and a 1st Generation Treaty Cruiser, She received a major overhaul in 1940 prior to leaving for the Asiatic Fleet. While there she received routine service, and she received major servicing in the Dewey Dry Dock in the early Fall of 1941, and had not the November war warning gone out, she might have received 2 additional 4 x 1.1 " AAA abaft the mainmast, and surface search radar which were at Cavite when it was attacked on 10 December. The older USS Marblehead had received service in Dewey Dock in the summer of 1941 , and all the submarines and destroyers were being rotated through the repair dock and marine railway, with 2 of each under service when the war broke out. The USN Destroyers were weak in AAA and ASW. only 1 or 2 x 3"/23 cal AA guns and 4 to 8 x.50 AA MG and the odd Lewis gun. Against torpedo bombers they stood a chance, with their AAA and short fuses on the 4" main guns.
As to pulling back to Ceylon, only the British could have done that, the Dutch were committed to defend the DEI to the last and the Asiatic fleet pulled out of the Philippines, once they lost their air cover, they moved to the DEI and then Australia.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
andVery stealthy butterfly FC.
Very nice.....
Hi Matthew, as
and
and
say, and I believe, she had the Type 273 radar fitted in July, helping make her
It isn't always about who has the biggest guns!
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Steamboy, Until Malaya, and Singapore are close to falling, any withdrawal of the fleet to Ceylon is most definitely totally unacceptable. The only way the Admiralty can hope to limit it's losses in a failing campaign, is not to commit them in the first place. So the question of Force Z, what it's strength and composition, and purpose, is a matter of debate between a Churchill, who needs to make a statement of commitment to the defence of the Far East, and an Admiralty, already overstretched, and concerned about further potential losses. One argument the Admiralty advances to restrict the commitment to Force Z, is the need for cruisers (Cornwall and Dorsetshire) to patrol the Indian Ocean, in search of the German raiders plaguing Allied shipping.
MWI 41092814 A British Cruiser With The Dutch
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Sunday 28 September;
A lazy wind flapped the flags aboard HNLMS De Ruyter, flagship of the Dutch East Indies Squadron, and gave some comfort against the heat of the early afternoon sun for the Dutch Rear Admiral, Karel Doorman, standing on the bridge wing, binoculars in hand as he watched the light cruiser being guided into port by a minesweeper. He knew her ships class, was old friends with them all, stalwarts of the Far East. HMS Durban, she didn’t look any different to when he last saw her in Singapore, probably eight months ago, although she had a new commander now, Captain Peter Cazalet, who would no doubt be worrying about making a good impression on his arrival.
But even an old hand would have been alert to the challenges of entering Soerabaja, as change was afoot, both in war precautions and the massive expansion of facilities here. The shore batteries were now operational, controlled minefields laid, and an anti-submarine net with a boom defence vessel operating the gate. And the Westwater channel, the main access in, was being dredged and widened, an ongoing 24-hour operation.
This was home to the Oedjong Naval Complex, the premier naval base for the Dutch East Indies, and a rival for Singapore and Cavite as the best in the Far East. This was where the East Indies Squadron home ported, both her surface ships and submarines. The submarine base featured its own dry docks, a torpedo workshop, battery recharging units, as well as research and development labs. Further drydocks, and workshops serviced the surface fleet, while barracks could accommodate their crews while in repair.
HMS Durban was fresh from a refit in Singapore, and had only just completed her work up. She would stay with the Dutch fleet, on a four-month secondment, allowing further practice in fleet co-operation, something both the British and Dutch desired. On board were several recently commissioned RNVR sub-lieutenants, trained in signalling, but more importantly with some fluency in Dutch, who would be assigned to the Dutch ships of the squadron, to help the work on fleet cooperation, as well as improve their own mastery of the Dutch language.
Apart from the Flagship De Ruyter, the other ships of the squadron were the two light cruisers Java and Sumatra, contemporaries of Durban. Java had been given an extensive refit in Holland, in 1938, but Sumatra hadn’t, and owing to the fall of Holland, was now having a major refit here in Soerabaja, and wasn’t expected to be ready before April 1942. In addition four Admiralen-class destroyers were normally assigned, but currently only three were, Banckert just back from Singapore, having just been fitted and trained with ASDIC, Witte de With, which had already been done, and Van Nes, which was due fitting ASDIC soon. Another two were in the north, while of the last two, Van Ghent was waiting for a dockyard refit as soon as Evertsen came out, both of whom would have ASDIC fitted in Singapore, on completion of their refits.
Well, she looks smart enough, and is handled well, but we’ll know more tomorrow, when I take the squadron out for a week of exercises, thought Doorman, as he lowered his binoculars and turned around, making for his cabin. He would host a dinner for the officers of Durban tonight, and needed to finish working through today’s correspondence and writing up orders, before washing and changing for the evening festivities. Eight hundred and fifty miles north west, HNLMS Tromp was to be found, just dropping anchor in the Johore straits, where she would be joining the Royal Navy, for a similar experience of working on fleet cooperation.
A lazy wind flapped the flags aboard HNLMS De Ruyter, flagship of the Dutch East Indies Squadron, and gave some comfort against the heat of the early afternoon sun for the Dutch Rear Admiral, Karel Doorman, standing on the bridge wing, binoculars in hand as he watched the light cruiser being guided into port by a minesweeper. He knew her ships class, was old friends with them all, stalwarts of the Far East. HMS Durban, she didn’t look any different to when he last saw her in Singapore, probably eight months ago, although she had a new commander now, Captain Peter Cazalet, who would no doubt be worrying about making a good impression on his arrival.
But even an old hand would have been alert to the challenges of entering Soerabaja, as change was afoot, both in war precautions and the massive expansion of facilities here. The shore batteries were now operational, controlled minefields laid, and an anti-submarine net with a boom defence vessel operating the gate. And the Westwater channel, the main access in, was being dredged and widened, an ongoing 24-hour operation.
This was home to the Oedjong Naval Complex, the premier naval base for the Dutch East Indies, and a rival for Singapore and Cavite as the best in the Far East. This was where the East Indies Squadron home ported, both her surface ships and submarines. The submarine base featured its own dry docks, a torpedo workshop, battery recharging units, as well as research and development labs. Further drydocks, and workshops serviced the surface fleet, while barracks could accommodate their crews while in repair.
HMS Durban was fresh from a refit in Singapore, and had only just completed her work up. She would stay with the Dutch fleet, on a four-month secondment, allowing further practice in fleet co-operation, something both the British and Dutch desired. On board were several recently commissioned RNVR sub-lieutenants, trained in signalling, but more importantly with some fluency in Dutch, who would be assigned to the Dutch ships of the squadron, to help the work on fleet cooperation, as well as improve their own mastery of the Dutch language.
Apart from the Flagship De Ruyter, the other ships of the squadron were the two light cruisers Java and Sumatra, contemporaries of Durban. Java had been given an extensive refit in Holland, in 1938, but Sumatra hadn’t, and owing to the fall of Holland, was now having a major refit here in Soerabaja, and wasn’t expected to be ready before April 1942. In addition four Admiralen-class destroyers were normally assigned, but currently only three were, Banckert just back from Singapore, having just been fitted and trained with ASDIC, Witte de With, which had already been done, and Van Nes, which was due fitting ASDIC soon. Another two were in the north, while of the last two, Van Ghent was waiting for a dockyard refit as soon as Evertsen came out, both of whom would have ASDIC fitted in Singapore, on completion of their refits.
Well, she looks smart enough, and is handled well, but we’ll know more tomorrow, when I take the squadron out for a week of exercises, thought Doorman, as he lowered his binoculars and turned around, making for his cabin. He would host a dinner for the officers of Durban tonight, and needed to finish working through today’s correspondence and writing up orders, before washing and changing for the evening festivities. Eight hundred and fifty miles north west, HNLMS Tromp was to be found, just dropping anchor in the Johore straits, where she would be joining the Royal Navy, for a similar experience of working on fleet cooperation.
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Whatever radar was on the POW it wasn't tropicalized so when the time came it malfunctioned. POW failed to detect a surface force 5 nautical miles away and had trouble detecting air contacts. Her radar and anti-aircraft ammo weren't very effective.
Wasn't there an issue specifically with the pom-pom ammunition being expired and having started to corrode or something?
That night, one of the Japanese seaplanes dropped a flare over the Japanese heavy cruiser ChĹŤkai, having mistaken her for Prince of Wales. After this, the Japanese force of six cruisers and several destroyers turned away to the northeast. The flare was also seen by the British force, which feared they had been identified and then turned away to the southeast. At this point, the forces were approximately 5 miles (9 km) apart but did not sight each other, and the Japanese force was not picked up on the radar of the Prince of Wales. At 20:55, Admiral Phillips cancelled the operation, saying that they had lost the element of surprise, and ordered the force to return to Singapore.
The sun had set at 18:58 hours, and was fully dark by 20:20 hours, and the moon didn't rise till 21:42 so, it was very dark. POW's radar wasn't working right, and I'm very surprised the Japanese didn't see 2 battleship sized targets that were so close. Weather conditions also seemed to be poor, but the Japanese seaplanes must have spotted Chokai by detecting her wake. The British were lucky the seaplanes didn't find the real Force Z, or they might have come under a night arial torpedo attack. Force Z was really sailing on troubled waters. They could've been destroyed in a night surface battle, a night air attack, a submarine attack, or an air attack the next day.
Strongly enough I just stumbled on this story from the Jerusalem Post. It maybe Chinese scavengers have been dragging up objects from the Prince of Wales.
www.jpost.com
Chinese ship detained for hoarding British WWII-era weaponry
The discovery comes amid reports this month that scavengers have targeted two British World War II wrecks off the coast of Malaysia.
www.jpost.com
At this time the only well trained and experienced air arm for night operations was the RN. a noght Pursuit and DD attack would have been more likely.
The Japanese may not have had combat experience in night air attacks, but they had trained for it, and were looking to take a shoot at it against Force Z.