Malaya What If

[ArtosStark]

How popular was a maple leaf as a Canadian national symbol in 1941?

Pretty universally accepted from about the 1850’s on. “The Maple Leaf Forever” was the unofficial but broadly accepted Canadian anthem. “Oh Canada” was actually only made official in the 1980’s. Partially out of Pierre Trudeau’s efforts to remove British influence, though it had been considered the other unofficial anthem since around 1939.

Timeline: The maple leaf - Canada.ca

Have you ever wondered why a maple leaf was chosen for the National Flag of Canada? Follow this timeline to learn about some of the major moments in the evolution of the maple leaf as a symbol of Canada.

www.canada.ca

 

[Mark1878]

To benefit himself. He wrecked this country. That is his entire political career. I can't think of anything he did that was of a sigificant benefit to us.

He introduced the Welfare State - e.g. Pensions, unemployment benefit, sick pay, some medical cover from insurance.

 

[bobbins]

To benefit himself. He wrecked this country. That is his entire political career. I can't think of anything he did that was of a sigificant benefit to us.

Except ensure the Nazis were beaten may possibly have been a benefit to the UK and humanity as a whole? Especially ensuring it was a victory that didn’t involve the Red Army occupying what was left of Europe.

 

[Deadtroopers]

That being said the only reason he survived the fall of the Philippines without being put out to pasture was because he was the Republicans man.

And Roosevelt needed to maintain the coalition and harmony back in Washington.

So instead he was retained and given the CMoH to boot.

I would add that Marshall purged the Army of old codgers as soon as he could - remembering the problems Pershing (he was Pershing ADC) had with hidebound older officers and that Pershing eventually pretty ended up firing every Divisional commander in the AEF and replaced them with younger men who where more ready to absorb the lessons of war.

Democrat majority Congress, 267-167(H) and 65-29(S). Given that, what need is there to maintain a coalition?

 

[Deadtroopers]

He introduced the Welfare State - e.g. Pensions, unemployment benefit, sick pay, some medical cover from insurance.

Exactly. Prussia was army with a country attached; the UK is the DHSS with a country attached. The devil is in the details and I'm not a fan.

The early-model Covenanters had severe engine cooling problems,

Send it to the USSR where it won't have those problems. See the Finns and the Buffalo.

 

[Deadtroopers]

Except ensure the Nazis were beaten may possibly have been a benefit to the UK and humanity as a whole? Especially ensuring it was a victory that didn’t involve the Red Army occupying what was left of Europe.

The only way the Nazis or Japanese were going to win was if they had not fought at all.

 

[Deadtroopers]

"In Churchill's mind..." That's the problem right there.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

@Fatboy Coxy

When you got time read this:

What if Singapore Had not fallen?

I found this topic in the internet and was thinking that this a good topic disccusion what do you think? What If Singapore Had Not Fallen? BY MARK GRIMSLEY 12/1/2010 • BATTLE FILMS, BATTLE OF SINGAPORE, FALL OF FRANCE At the start of World War II, Singapore had symbolized the British Empire’s...

www.alternatehistory.com

Maybe some information could help. Also it talks about the drydock USS Dewey

Its a good write up by Mark

However having reread it I did spot a couple of errors or parts of the story that I thought did not ring true

Firstly the 2 pounder did not have to be fired with its wheels removed - it could either be positioned 'with wheels removed' to enable 360 degree traverse or 'with wheels not removed' with a much reduced arc (although the crew could turn the gun quite easily).

Also the process of reattaching the wheels took less time than it took to read the above paragraph (45 seconds from the order given to the truck driving off)

The other comment I noticed was HMS POW having a failure of A turret during the battle with the IJN Cruisers

The OTL battle of Denmark Straight issues were due to the ship not having been properly worked up - in peacetime she would have still been in the hands of the shipyard - and effectively still was with ship yard personnel on board at the time of the battles.

This was May 1941 - she remained @ Rosyth until July and in Aug set out to deliver Winston to meet with Roosevelt to sign the Atlantic Charter - I think its improbable that the issues that impacted her in May would be still exist in Dec.

While the 14" turrets were finicky HMS KGV fired 30 salvos at Bismarck during her last battle before she started suffering and serious issues with malfunctions and few of her peers ever fired as many salvos in combat.

Just saying

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

Fantastic team, fantastic players. Jealousy gets you nowhere.

I loved that Leeds team of the late 60's / early 70's - Could field 11 full internationals with another as sub and a couple more in the reserves, in the time when this was unheard of.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Democrat majority Congress, 267-167(H) and 65-29(S). Given that, what need is there to maintain a coalition?

I can think of no other reason he was not at minimum 'put out to pasture' instead of being aware the CMoH and given such a leading role other than his dismissal would upset people in high places!

He was the only senior field commander in the US Order of Battle who failed so badly to be retained.

 

[bobbins]

The only way the Nazis or Japanese were going to win was if they had not fought at all.

Yes. But losing to the allies vs the soviets alone is a fairly significant difference.

 

[Driftless]

I wonder with MacArthur if some of the reason for not sacking him was to keep him under some level of chain-of-command control. If he gets busted, and he's already retired once, now he becomes a viable US Senate candidate, or even try a run for the Presidency in '44. Either way, he would be a singularly noisy pain-in-the-ass for FDR. Between FDR and Gen Marshall, they probably wished they would have assigned Mac to Panama; somewhere with a few less reporters and less significant activity. Even if Mac gets sent to Alaska, the Aleutian Campaign now becomes the direct road to Tokyo (In Mac's fertile mind)

 

[CB13]

I wonder with MacArthur if some of the reason for not sacking him was to keep him under some level of chain-of-command control. If he gets busted, and he's already retired once, now he becomes a viable US Senate candidate, or even try a run for the Presidency in '44. Either way, he would be a singularly noisy pain-in-the-ass for FDR. Between FDR and Gen Marshall, they probably wished they would have assigned Mac to Panama; somewhere with a few less reporters and less significant activity. Even if Mac gets sent to Alaska, the Aleutian Campaign now becomes the direct road to Tokyo (In Mac's fertile mind)

It would be an interesting butterfly to have certain interests cooperate to get him a Congressional Seat in a safe district in order to get him out of the military....

 

[jlckansas]

Mac would be perfect to head up the U.S. Army training command. Really gets the ego going to have so many in the War Department, Congress, the Senate, and Media saying how this is the most important job in the Army, having well trained troops that are trained in the "MacArthur Way".

 

[general]

Well, given the mess US Army training was IRL, MacArthur certainly could'nt make it worse!

 

[Butchpfd]

Regards the USN Asiatic Fleet, I'll have a few posts on that for timeline context, but Butchpfd is doing a pretty good job,

I'm a bit of a fan of Tommy Hart.. read a couple of bios and his report on the Asiatic Fleets operations and demise. Things could have been different. Mac Arthur would not all patrol planes or subs to go any closer then 50 miles when 3 to 12 miles was the international limits of the time. Hart's PBY crews were night operation trained. They could have launched before dawn after the notification of the outbreak of war. They could have gotten close enough to see that Formosa was socked in for flying and the USAAF FE could have stood down and been better prepared for the Japanese midday attacks.

 

[Butchpfd]

Well, given the mess US Army training was IRL, MacArthur certainly could'nt make it worse!

He made an absolute mess of the training of Philippine troops pre war. American troops there were allowed to acclimate too long after arrival before training. One other thing that would have helped would have been to attach a battalion of the 26th Scouts to the ad hoc Armor group; 2 Battalions of M-3 light tanks and 1 Company of 75mm Half Tacks of Making up the Far East Provisional Tank group. The Battalion of the 26th would have given the group a mobile infantry force. In Reality the tank group and the 26th fought together an don the same day performed the last Cavalry charge, and the 1stTank attack of the U.S. Army.

 

[Butchpfd]

He made an absolute mess of the training of Philippine troops pre war. American troops there were allowed to acclimate too long after arrival before training. One other thing that would have helped would have been to attach a battalion of the 26th Scouts to the ad hoc Armor group; 2 Battalions of M-3 light tanks and 1 Company of 75mm Half Tacks of Making up the Far East Provisional Tank group. The Battalion of the 26th would have given the group a mobile infantry force. In Reality the tank group and the 26th fought together an don the same day performed the last Cavalry charge, and the 1stTank attack of the U.S. Army, of WW II.

 

[general]

He made an absolute mess of the training of Philippine troops pre war. American troops there were allowed to acclimate too long after arrival before training. One other thing that would have helped would have been to attach a battalion of the 26th Scouts to the ad hoc Armor group; 2 Battalions of M-3 light tanks and 1 Company of 75mm Half Tacks of Making up the Far East Provisional Tank group. The Battalion of the 26th would have given the group a mobile infantry force. In Reality the tank group and the 26th fought together an don the same day performed the last Cavalry charge, and the 1stTank attack of the U.S. Army.

So, I might be wrong then. although given Fredendall was put in charge of Training, i still think MacArthur would do better.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

I'm a bit of a fan of Tommy Hart.. read a couple of bios and his report on the Asiatic Fleets operations and demise. Things could have been different. Mac Arthur would not all patrol planes or subs to go any closer then 50 miles when 3 to 12 miles was the international limits of the time. Hart's PBY crews were night operation trained. They could have launched before dawn after the notification of the outbreak of war. They could have gotten close enough to see that Formosa was socked in for flying and the USAAF FE could have stood down and been better prepared for the Japanese midday attacks.

With MacArthur surviving the fall of the Philippines with almost a hero status, there was always a danger of being a scapegoat, and Hart could have been one.

He successfully saved his antiquated surface fleet from immediate destruction, allowing it to fight through the loss of the Dutch East Indies, his impressively large submarine force was a bit of a disappointment, I'm not sure which subs used the notorious Mk 14 torpedo, and he was saddled with commanding the naval forces of ABDA command, a thankless task. He did his best, and I can't ascribe the losing campaign to his leadership. Afterwards Roosevelt honoured him.

What I do wonder is, if my timeline is successful in holding Malaya, and consequently at least delaying the loss of the Dutch East Indies, would the USN send more ships to fight in this theatre, and would they continue to let him command them. By December 1941, Hart is 64 years old, does he make way for a younger man?