Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

Sadly I dont think it could take. Culture ultimately trumps class, and this is before we add years of investment in the war, years of investment which you wont want to throw aside. Also, the basic idea you have of them only letting them vote after a generation, that wont help you. Denying people the ballot for a generation dosent make them come over to your side, it only makes them more angry and more resentful of the people who have the political power.
Well, the author has stated pretty definitively that that is the attitude that is going to develop once the war is over: Yeah, I served in the rebel army; those planter bastards really pulled the wool over our eyes, all of us. We fought honorably all the same, and were good men - those brigands were just a few bad apples and we had nothing to do with THAT thank god. A mixture of Clean Wermacht and class critique. Not perfect, but a whole helluva lot better than the Lost Cause.

And to be clear I'm not sure how long it will take for voting rights to be reinstated and for who; save that there will be land redistribution and the planter class is going to bear the brunt of the reconstruction and be more or less destroyed as a class (little loss there). A lot of that was simply musings based on different scenerios I could see. We will need some clarification on that point from @Red_Galiray.
 
If Debs comes in, we'd probably see him leading the radical wing of the this Farm-Labor Party. The example I keep coming back to is the British Labour Party, which has included both moderate social democrats and dyed-in-the-wool socialists.

Well, Debs certainly moved further to the Left after his time in prison when he became an avowed Socialist; prior to that he was seen as an up-and-coming Laborite Democrat. So minus Cleveland's crushing of the union and Debb's imprisonment, there's every chance that he remains on the left wing of the Opposition Party, but just shy of the Socialist lable.
 
Well, Debs certainly moved further to the Left after his time in prison when he became an avowed Socialist; prior to that he was seen as an up-and-coming Laborite Democrat. So minus Cleveland's crushing of the union and Debb's imprisonment, there's every chance that he remains on the left wing of the Opposition Party, but just shy of the Socialist lable.
He might become a moderate socialist, still emphasizing reform and electoral politics rather than direct action. Daniel DeLeon might end up in a similar position (he did favor electoralism IOTL).

If Debs and DeLeon are both on board with electoralism and working within a major party, it's likely that the IWW as we know it never comes to be. They might work with the UMWA to create something like the CIO (or successfully push the AFL to the left).
 
He might become a moderate socialist, still emphasizing reform and electoral politics rather than direct action. Daniel DeLeon might end up in a similar position (he did favor electoralism IOTL).

If Debs and DeLeon are both on board with electoralism and working within a major party, it's likely that the IWW as we know it never comes to be. They might work with the UMWA to create something like the CIO (or successfully push the AFL to the left).

That would be a fascinating situation! And considering the Debbs was close to Berger at, and this stage, they worked closely together (they agitated for the People's Party together, for instance), he could brought into our Freedom Party as well. Which gives the FP a nice conservative, social democratic wing.
 
That would be a fascinating situation! And considering the Debbs was close to Berger at, and this stage, they worked closely together (they agitated for the People's Party together, for instance), he could brought into our Freedom Party as well. Which gives the FP a nice conservative, social democratic wing.
Would be cool to see Presidents De Leon and Debs in the future ITTL! Like the Proletariat Presidents!
 
There is another issue: the white Confederates would have suffered much larger casualties among their military-age male population ITTL.
 
Don't forget Seward or Chase. Arfield's youth isn't as much a problem for either as they aren't as ill in 1868. Plus, Seward had those injuries that might have cut his life short by a few years..

On the other hand, I remember reading that Garfield's grandmother was alive when he was inaugurated. While men and women have different genetics so it's not guaranteed he would live a long time, he could easily have become president later than OTL.

It just depends how long you want the Republicans to stay in power. You have a variety of options including just stretching that power through to 1889.
Both Seward and Chase disappointed me in the aftermath of the war. As strange as this may sound, they were too much political for my taste. With this I meant that they always put their own political ambitions ahead of their principles, and while it might be naive to expect a politician to act otherwise, this meant that these ertswhile radicals became almost, or outright Democrats after the war. Seward because he wanted to retain his power in the Johnson administration, even supporting his vetoes of the Freedmen's Bureau and Civil Rights bills; Chase, because he wanted to be President very badly, even dropping his support for Black suffrage in the hopes that the Democrats would pick him. Though they may remain more loyal to Republican principles with Lincoln in charge, it's likely that the prospect of a "conservative coalition" would appeal more to them than to other Republicans.

Assuming Grant does well as President and serves two terms, from 73-1881 that gives us 20 years of uninterrupted Republican rule. It also gives whatever party is going to replace the Dems a good bit of time to work their own kinks out, come to grips with the post-war order and hopefully be able to be a legitimate opposition party that can regain the Presidency at that time and can govern well (because, by 1880, or 1884 at the latest, we're probably going to the GOP lose an election. And the opposition needs to be cleared of those who are goign to try to walk back Civil rights)
I'm not sure if Grant would want to become a governor. In any case, it seems like more executive experience would be a better teacher.

Hopefully we can avoid the railroad corruption the impoversihed the west till the 1960's
Railroads are other issue that I'm working on. The construction of rail lines through the Southern upcountry paradoxically weakened Reconstruction because the isolated White yeomen often resented how opening their communities to external trade changed their lives. It also bankrupted the Reconstruction states.

If Garfield is the head of the anti-Republican Party, then this alt-US may have hit the jackpot in terms of potential party systems. It's a shame Garfield served so little time in the presidency, he really strikes me as one of the people with the most potential in the position.
It's not that unlikely, too, since Garfield was almost lured by the Liberal Republicans but ultimately stayed away. If the split produces a party that earnestly advocated reform without selling their soul to the reactionaries, Garfield may join their ranks.

And to be clear I'm not sure how long it will take for voting rights to be reinstated and for who; save that there will be land redistribution and the planter class is going to bear the brunt of the reconstruction and be more or less destroyed as a class (little loss there). A lot of that was simply musings based on different scenerios I could see. We will need some clarification on that point from @Red_Galiray.
The exact details are being ironed out, but most Confederate civil servants, officials and officers are probably going to be permanently disenfranchised; some common soldiers probably will be disenfranchised for a few years, at least until the new governments get running. The planters, as a class, will be destroyed by a combination of pro-worker economic policies, land redistribution, and the disenfranchisement or outright trial and imprisonment. Even those who managed to retain land or acquire it will see new power dynamics that will make them very different from the old planters, mainly the fact that their workers will have the law and government on their side.

Regarding the very interesting discussion about future party dynamics, my idea was that Republicans will eventually split between the "Labor Republicans" and the "Conservative/National Republicans". The first, for whom I actually prefer the name "Workingmen", would be a big tent party, from true socialists to agrarian populists to merely those discontent with party politics, but their main battle cry would be for reform, state intervention in the economy, and workers' rights. They would attract immigrants in the East and West coast; farmers in the Midwest; and poor Whites and Blacks in the South.

The other Republican faction would become a party that advocates in favor of party machines and big business, and is deadly scared of "communism", wishing instead to maintain "respectable and responsible" economic policy and political dynamics. It would attract industrialists, merchants, middle-class people, in general, those who own the means of production and a comfortable life and thus are content with the status quo.

What's important, however, is that I want both parties to have Black constituencies. Without Jim Crow and with the bigger opportunities of Reconstruction, I envision a Black middle class and bourgeoise ascending. Historically, a small percentage of Black people did achieve middle class status, and they exposed Liberal talking points: the rest of the Black population was merely lazy and improvident, and they could have ascended too if they just tried. I think by the 1880's, those Black people who benefited the most from land redistribution and Reconstruction could come to believe that they obtained it all through hard work and dedication, and that the government ought to not do more because if even after all that help there are still poor Black people it surely must be because they are lazy and worthless, right? Men like Booker T. Washington and Black politicians like Blanche K. Bruce would likely be part of this group, and align themselves with the conservative Republicans. They would be a minority, but 25 to 35 percent of the Black electorate would still make it an attractive plum, especially when such deflections may allow the party in power to carry the South.

Finally, regarding the South I think some simply won't be able to let go of racist animus, and some kind of reactionary White Power party will always exist. It's just that it would be more or less a national pariah. White Southerners would be divided in thirds: one would be die-hards who, while not able to advocate outright nullification or terrorism, defend the Confederacy and White Supremacy; another would be more "respectable" New Line, the Wade Hampton-kind that seem to accept the new order but still want classism and probably could ally with conservative Northerners; and the final third would be Republicans who would probably go to the Workingmen in the future.
 
And I just discovered this TL after I promised myself that I would take a little break from ACW literature. Well done @Red_Galiray, it's the best ACW AH thing I've read since @TheKnightIrish (praise be to him) did A Glorious Union.

I'd suggest some maps if you're interested, but it seems the Union Army is about to have this in the bag. Shame about Reynolds though, I hope Winfield Scott Hancock can recover quickly enough and maybe we can see him get an army command. I will admit the "Army of the Susquehanna" doesn't have quite the same ring to it as the Army of the Potomac.

On the other hand I was extremely amused that McLellan has a permanent spot in the Hall of Shame with the Fitz-John Porter treatment after Maryland (as well as burning in your TL's military hell for all eternity). On the other hand, I think McDowell will go down as a sort of underrated genius (personally I don't consider the OTL versions of either that foolish and I do appreciate McLellan's knack for organizing and logistics. But as Grant and Sherman proved, you can worry about logistics and still find a way to fight well).

Also, please do make this and your future TLs into a book. It deserves that kind of treatment.
Thank you very much! I appreciate your kind words :) I actually do want to make maps, especially depicting the main military campaigns, but my poor map making skills are not up to the task, I'm afraid. And yeah, the Army of the Potomac sounds better, but maybe ITTL they scoff and say it doesn't have the same ring as Army of the Susquehanna.

McClellan will probably be as infamous as Benedict Arnold for his incompetency and aptitude. Some may point to his logistical skills, but it'd be a feeble defense because the fact that he lost half of his Army can't be forgiven.
 
One thing to consider is that Irishman are still right there, with their machines and not well disposed to the Republican party, nor I imagine her descendants in the Workingman. They will be a pickle. Might mean things like the Blaine Amendment gets through as their is no party which will serve the interests of Catholics.
 
One thing to consider is that Irishman are still right there, with their machines and not well disposed to the Republican party, nor I imagine her descendants in the Workingman. They will be a pickle. Might mean things like the Blaine Amendment gets through as their is no party which will serve the interests of Catholics.

Yes, the Irish had a long memory - and the Know-Nothings and the Riors of the 1840s weren't too long ago. Although it would be wrong to assume that there were no Irish GOP members - the head of the Land League received a lot of hate to actively working for Blaine and against Cleveland during his first election, and famously Archbishop John Ireland was a proud Republican; but they were small in number. On issues alone, most Irish would actually be very attracted to the Workingman's Party; the Irish were actively involved in the unions, and the Catholic Church was largely supportive as well. But being a party comprised mainly of ex-Republicans, the Workingman's Party would still carry with it the stink of the GOP.

There IS a work around, however. Mainly, have the Workingman's Party form from a few smaller parties which merge together - the history is there, after all. The GOP was comprised mainly by ex-Whigs and ex-Know-Nothings. So if the Democratic coalition shatters into a number of smaller parties all vying with one another and the Workingman's Party forms from the merger of these groups along with an admixture of ex-Republicans, that would be enough to mitigate Irish (and other Catholics) fears. However, the Ex-Republicans have to be a PART of the party and not the largest or more dominant ones. Also, this means that ex-Republicans (who were often New England and Midwestern Protestants) are going to have to hold their noses about being part of a party which is HEAVILY Catholic and which will naturally represent American Catholic interests at times. Is this problem insurrumountable? Of course not - the Irish and other Catholics were loyal Democrats in OTL; a party which contained the Southern Wing of the party which was largely anti-Catholic as well - but it is something that will need to be dealt with both in-universe and in the narritive.
 
Yes, the Irish had a long memory - and the Know-Nothings and the Riors of the 1840s weren't too long ago. Although it would be wrong to assume that there were no Irish GOP members - the head of the Land League received a lot of hate to actively working for Blaine and against Cleveland during his first election, and famously Archbishop John Ireland was a proud Republican; but they were small in number. On issues alone, most Irish would actually be very attracted to the Workingman's Party; the Irish were actively involved in the unions, and the Catholic Church was largely supportive as well. But being a party comprised mainly of ex-Republicans, the Workingman's Party would still carry with it the stink of the GOP.

There IS a work around, however. Mainly, have the Workingman's Party form from a few smaller parties which merge together - the history is there, after all. The GOP was comprised mainly by ex-Whigs and ex-Know-Nothings. So if the Democratic coalition shatters into a number of smaller parties all vying with one another and the Workingman's Party forms from the merger of these groups along with an admixture of ex-Republicans, that would be enough to mitigate Irish (and other Catholics) fears. However, the Ex-Republicans have to be a PART of the party and not the largest or more dominant ones. Also, this means that ex-Republicans (who were often New England and Midwestern Protestants) are going to have to hold their noses about being part of a party which is HEAVILY Catholic and which will naturally represent American Catholic interests at times. Is this problem insurrumountable? Of course not - the Irish and other Catholics were loyal Democrats in OTL; a party which contained the Southern Wing of the party which was largely anti-Catholic as well - but it is something that will need to be dealt with both in-universe and in the narritive.
We could see some local parties and machines that run exclusively on upholding their own people in the time where a viable opposition to the Republican hegemony doesn't exist.

The fact that these immigrant groups are highly variable and will have differing motivations and ideas is something to be kept in mind as well.

I don't think the Irish will be particularly happy with later immigrants from Italy and China either as OTL.
 
The GOP was comprised mainly by ex-Whigs and ex-Know-Nothings. So if the Democratic coalition shatters into a number of smaller parties all vying with one another and the Workingman's Party forms from the merger of these groups along with an admixture of ex-Republicans, that would be enough to mitigate Irish (and other Catholics) fears.
There is a thing you should consider is that the more progressive, pro-labor Republicans were quite often ex-Know Nothing in the Northeast. They often drove major social reforms during their brief reign at state levels in Northeastern states during the 1850s. So, this Workingman Party might have ended up including lots of ex-Know Nothing.

On issues alone, most Irish would actually be very attracted to the Workingman's Party; the Irish were actively involved in the unions, and the Catholic Church was largely supportive as well. But being a party comprised mainly of ex-Republicans, the Workingman's Party would still carry with it the stink of the GOP.
OTOH, Seward was able to win lots of immigrant support as Governor and Senator.

There IS a work around, however. Mainly, have the Workingman's Party form from a few smaller parties which merge together - the history is there, after all. The GOP was comprised mainly by ex-Whigs and ex-Know-Nothings. So if the Democratic coalition shatters into a number of smaller parties all vying with one another and the Workingman's Party forms from the merger of these groups along with an admixture of ex-Republicans, that would be enough to mitigate Irish (and other Catholics) fears. However, the Ex-Republicans have to be a PART of the party and not the largest or more dominant ones. Also, this means that ex-Republicans (who were often New England and Midwestern Protestants) are going to have to hold their noses about being part of a party which is HEAVILY Catholic and which will naturally represent American Catholic interests at times. Is this problem insurrumountable?
The problem is that with the collapse of the Democrats in the North and its coalition splintered, the ex-GOP men would have been at the minimum the single largest and most well-organized anti-GOP group at the beginning. The major non-GOP, non-Democrat splinter groups IOTL were Greenbacks, Farmers' Alliance, Labor Party, Prohibition Party and various socialist groups - all of these groups apparently were not Catholic dominant. In addition, there were non-Catholic ex-Democrats (e.g. free traders) and German Democrats, both of which were more fickle and issue-dependent. The anti-GOP ITTL would have naturally absorbed these groups before absorbing the Irish.

Another question is that, while the Irish are still there, with the death of the Democrats, would their political machines have even survived by the end of the war?

On the flip side, if Lincoln's Third term or another non-Grant Presidency between 1868 and 1872 involved aggressive political/civil service/anti-corruption reforms while Reconstruction did not go far enough, the Republican Party would have become your Workingmen Party as the conservatives defect.
 
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One thing to consider is that Irishman are still right there, with their machines and not well disposed to the Republican party, nor I imagine her descendants in the Workingman. They will be a pickle. Might mean things like the Blaine Amendment gets through as their is no party which will serve the interests of Catholics.
The Democratic machines that used the Irish are in taters, completely desolated due to a series of factors. Even before the war the Buchanan-Douglas feud decimated many Democratic centers as Buchanan withdrew patronage and sought to drive out those who remained loyal to Douglas. During the war, a combination of Republican hegemony and outright political repression has all but destroyed the old machines. Many Irish leaders were shot for their crimes during the draft riots, for example, and almost all prominent New York Chesnuts (Democrats) were compelled to leave the country. As it stands right now, the Irish are a voting bloc without a party. It's almost a given that they will throw their loyalties to the party that stands against Lincoln, because being in favor of racism and against classism they basically are the antithesis of the WASP Republicans. They are likely to be an attractive electoral plum for any party, so the Workingmen may try to appeal to them.

There IS a work around, however. Mainly, have the Workingman's Party form from a few smaller parties which merge together - the history is there, after all. The GOP was comprised mainly by ex-Whigs and ex-Know-Nothings. So if the Democratic coalition shatters into a number of smaller parties all vying with one another and the Workingman's Party forms from the merger of these groups along with an admixture of ex-Republicans, that would be enough to mitigate Irish (and other Catholics) fears. However, the Ex-Republicans have to be a PART of the party and not the largest or more dominant ones. Also, this means that ex-Republicans (who were often New England and Midwestern Protestants) are going to have to hold their noses about being part of a party which is HEAVILY Catholic and which will naturally represent American Catholic interests at times. Is this problem insurrumountable? Of course not - the Irish and other Catholics were loyal Democrats in OTL; a party which contained the Southern Wing of the party which was largely anti-Catholic as well - but it is something that will need to be dealt with both in-universe and in the narritive.
Something like that. Though the Democracy is bound to be in shambles, any party that tries to oppose Lincoln and the Republicans will probably be able to count on the Irish. It's just that instead of a wide coalition including Southerners and other Democratic constituency, this party is likely to only embrace the Irish and the interests of Eastern Democrats - there may be a party for Western Democrats more focused on inflation and populism, and two parties in the South, for the New Line and the Redeemers. Without a wide national coalition, the descendants of the Democrats have little chance of effectively challenging a united GOP. But, if the GOP divides, the new party may be able to pick up some of these factions, especially the Northern ones that cut off from their Southern brethren could truly abandon racism and reactionary politics in favor of reform and populism. Basically, a New Deal coalition some 50 years earlier!

On the flip side, if Lincoln's Third term or another non-Grant Presidency between 1868 and 1872 involved aggressive political/civil service/anti-corruption reforms while Reconstruction did not go far enough, the Republican Party would have become your Workingmen Party as the conservatives defect.
I have considered that, but I'm afraid that if Reconstruction is not secured enough by 1869, it could completely unravel if not given the adequate attention. Those years are critical, and a big part of OTL Reconstruction's failure is that Andrew Johnson was actively working against it. But, at the same time, I have toyed with the idea of a mediocre GOP administration, at least when it comes to the South, so that Radicals could come back roaring and institute more reforms in 1872. The counterargument to that is that if the "bad" President is pro-reform, the reaction could become explicitly pro-political machines, especially due to the Stalwart dynamics already described. It's certainly a problem I'll have to think long and hard about. Of course, this discussion helps a lot!
 
Hello,

Is there the possibility of so-called dark horse presidential candidates that could succeed Lincoln? They may not be as prominent as the others discussed here but if given the chance could one of them be a better fit?
 
Hello,

Another notion to consider. The manner in which this timeline proceeded differently from OTL, especially after news of the far more dramatic assassination attempt on the President spreads, would that inspire those who did not consider working for the Federal government or becoming a member of Congress to do so now? The way of things here may convince those to enter national politics if only to help the cause of Lincoln and/or the Republicans.

This may mean that an entirely new character may have to developed from scratch or doing research into the more obscure aspects of national politics at the time to find that person who could make a good fit. Surely, the possible candidates could come not only from members of the government or Congress, but also from the range of state governors, Union military officers, or businessmen, etc. Of course this line of thought could also inspire others to oppose Lincoln and the Republicans when they never considered the idea in OTL.
 
have considered that, but I'm afraid that if Reconstruction is not secured enough by 1869, it could completely unravel if not given the adequate attention. Those years are critical, and a big part of OTL Reconstruction's failure is that Andrew Johnson was actively working against it. But, at the same time, I have toyed with the idea of a mediocre GOP administration, at least when it comes to the South, so that Radicals could come back roaring and institute more reforms in 1872. The counterargument to that is that if the "bad" President is pro-reform, the reaction could become explicitly pro-political machines, especially due to the Stalwart dynamics already described. It's certainly a problem I'll have to think long and hard about. Of course, this discussion helps a lot
Or if being moderate is what Grant did IOTL (which was radical by OTL standard) and being radical is something else.
 
Or if being moderate is what Grant did IOTL (which was radical by OTL standard) and being radical is something else.
Or, an ailing President for 4 years who basically is a champion of Civil Rights but too ill to be a powerful force himself, thus leaving all the work to Congress. He retires afte one term, thus leaving it to the president elected in 1872 to really push reforms. The GOP stays united, Reconstruction occurs as it should, but with a President who lets Congress do everything.

Unless Charles Sumner died, which I don't recall happening, he would be an excellent pick, his health was pretty bad for a while and if the caning was worse but didn't kill him then you can probably fiddle with his health in any number of ways, maybe give him a stroke a few months into office or something.

Edit: Yes, I see Sumner is still alive.

Even if he never wanted to be President OTL, I can see GOP leaders pushing for it. It lets you put in Grant as VP, make him a governor, or whatever; I can see the motto now, "Let's let Sumner give the Southern aristocrats the same kind of caning one of them gave him." With the GOP more radicalized, it makes sense to choose a known figure over a political neophyte like Grant.
 
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I cant wait for the Nuremberg Trials on the Confederates. I wonder where it could possibly take place.
In KnightIrish's TL there was no specific place. They just tried and hung every Rebel figure they could where they were found (except for those that voluntarily gave up or escaped). I think Jeff Davis was hung somewhere in Georgia (the capital was moved to Atlanta there). So my guess, if there's a great skedaddle to Mexico or Canada, they do just that after the manhunts end. Assuming of course, there's anyone left to hang.
 
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