Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

They have this power under the current constitution, they've just never exercised the ability to draw them themselves. They've set down guidelines before, both in the Voting Rights Act and the 1911 Apportionment Act.
I'm aware, but given that a predominantly Republican Supreme Court declared in that era that the 14th amendment somehow didn't give the government any power to protect Black rights, maybe it would be necessary to explicitly grant Congress the power to draw the districts. Maybe even, as in other countries, declare that Representatives serve the nation and not their own districts, but that would be taking it too far, maybe.

Now, I'm going to give a very late reply to some interesting posts made before the update...

Even IOTL, the Lost Cause was IIRC as much the product of a younger generation who had not fought in the Civil War as it was the product of Confederate veterans.
It's sad, but prejudice is a learned behavior. A lot of the most fiery racists and Lost Causers were people who hadn't been born when the Civil War took place or were too young to remember it. A lot of the terrorists who attacked Black people in the 1876 elections were "young bloods", from teenagers to young adults who were just toddlers during the war.

He did. When he surrendered he had 8'000 armed men out of about 30,000 still with him verus about 120,000 US.
Many people may not realize that Lee's Army was quite literally melting away in the road to Appomattox. He only surrendered because the alternative was destruction at Grant's hands - or taking to the mountains as bandits.

Well, I mean, best case scenario the US puts more confederate officers and officials on trial for treason. Very public and very scrupulously fair, but their guilt is a given.
We've reached a point where some officers and officials simply won't be given the option to surrender, because the US will demand they stand trial for war crimes. Others might be given the chance to surrender, but the cartels certainly won't include complete immunity for all officers - but most likely for the common soldiers only. Those with a shred of honor will probably choice to surrender themselves in exchange of protection for their men.

One of the reasons we didn't see a true insurgency after the OTL Civil War was partially because of the sheer swathe of destruction inflicted by Sherman in his march to the sea after the bisection of the Confederacy at Vicksburg, while the economic collapse of the CSA behind the lines meant that there was no real ability to fight on and many soldiers just wanted to go home. The second most important was the relatively lenient terms of Reconstruction, if their homes and legal rights aren't threatened, many won't have a reason to take up arms.

If the Union arrested or exiled the plantation owners and Southern politicians (usually synonymous) and redistributed their land and cancelled any debts owed to them by other Southern whites, it would hardly be skin off the noses of your average yeoman farmer.
The Union is aware of this. Though many Northerners are still wary of keeping up with what's basically become a class war by now, in rhetoric and action they advocate for the destruction of the planter class as something that will benefit the poor Whites. That's why they offer pardons, land and Bureau aid to those who desert the Confederacy. The only ones likely to keep fighting are the die-hards that it would be better to get rid of anyway.

They’d be trying to fight in areas totally devastated of bereft or war-making material and a population that has seen too much war and just want some peace and quiet (assuming they haven’t left). More than that, it’s not some foreign invader that’s occupying the land, but fellow Americans.

The war has also gotten brutal enough that, if an insurgent cell does make a big enough stink to rouse military action then you’d see boys in blue corralling the insurgents into a swamp or forest before setting the whole thing on fire. Or even like In At The Death by Harry Turtledove where the occupying troops make any town supporting an insurgency pay for it by punishing the whole town until someone comes forward. Perhaps that’s a bit extreme but this is an era where Sherman’s Drive to the Sea is seen as justified and necessary.
That's the other factor, by the end the destruction would be so complete that the guerrillas simply wouldn't have any people to give them the necessary food and supplies. Confederate civilians already hide their food from their own soldiers, it's unlikely they will give up what little they have to an insurgency that's doomed to failure after they've seen their great armies ground to dust and destroyed. And if the guerrillas simply rob the civilians... well, that's not good for their long term prospects, certainly.

By the way, the Union is already punishing whole towns for guerrilla activities. In the Kansas-Missouri border and along the Mississippi, Union commanders often expel civilians, sack and confiscate plantations, and hold people hostage to try and control guerrilla activity. Though it's not generalized, often captured guerrillas are executed in revenge for raids and massacres - unless the guilty turn themselves in first. And, of course, cities that refuse to surrender are often completely destroyed. Conversely, the Confederates too victimize whole communities, even resorting to torturing women and children to draw their Unionist husbands out from the swamps and woods.

The difficult aspect of all this is the risks of political factionalism and popular rage in the North, or undisciplined vengeance on the part of Union troops and officers occupying the South, sabotaging a perfect plan for Reconstruction: that Lincoln, or whoever succeeds him, could have perfect or even effective control over the whole project. There were Radical Republicans even in OTL urging very Cromwellian treatment for the South, and not just for the slaveocrats. If it gets out of hand and starts hitting the white yeoman class, the best intentions in the world . . . might not count for much.

Anyhow, I'm sure Red has all this worked out, and I'm keen to see where he takes it.
The two main factors that I hope will limit the vindictiveness of Reconstruction and the Union occupation is: 1. The Yankees see this as merely reclaiming their land and restoring the Union. They don't see themselves as beating a foe, like the Soviets did when they faced Germany. So they won't want to exterminate all Southerners, only the rebels, giving a chance to all the rest to surrender. Naturally, some abuses will still happen. 2. Radicalism is characterized by utopian idealism, not vindictive revenge. I can't find many Radicals openly calling for complete devastation for the sake of devastation. In fact, most of the bloody appeals came from people who were not really Radicals, such as Andrew Johnson.

This little side discussion has me thinking again of that terrific scene in Spielberg's Lincoln (2012) between Lincoln and Thaddeus Stevens. "That's the untempered version of Reconstruction."

One of my favorite movies! However, note that we've already reached the untempered version of Reconstruction as described by Lincoln - we have "land appropriation" in the form of extensive land redistribution, we have "revolutionary tribunals" in the form of military and Bureau courts that regularly trial traitors both North and South, we have "punitive measures" in the form of bills to confiscate property and punish rebellion.

If it really gets nasty like the Boer Wars, there would need to be equally dramatic measures on the side of the Union to win it. Remembering it took the Brits using concentration camps (that killed not a insignificant part of the Boer population and were intentionally deprived of food and medicine to a extent), scorched earth tactics as well as overwhelming military force before they were able to defeat the Boer guerrillas, and even then, the war forever scarred the Boer population enough they would distrust the British all the way towards the end of apartheid.

The question is: would the American public, government and army really be ok with doing something like this against fellow Americans? Even if they're justifiable irate against them for many reasons, it's one thing to do it against foreigners you want to defer and conquer and another to do it to your countrymen.
I mean, again, we've reached that point. The Union has already established what are basically concentration camps in areas affected by guerrilla warfare, as the secesh civilians found to have been helping civilians are often expelled and driven to camps where they won't be able to aid the outlaws and are basically held hostage to prevent massacres. It's not as bad as the British camps, since most of the time the Union is actually just heavily occupying a town to prevent it from helping civilians, but in extreme cases they may be torched and the civilians are expelled without any aid - which has, you can imagine, resulted in atrocious casualties. Some civilians left voluntarily, which has only worsened the refugee crisis and set the conditions for the imminent famine. As far as scorched earth tactics, Grant and Sherman have already thoroughly devastated the Mississippi Valley and large areas of Louisiana to deal with guerrillas. The difference with the British is, of course, that after imparting so much destruction the Yankee soldiers always set down and offer land, food, supplies and pardons to those who want them. So a man may see his land sacked and food eaten... but the next week the Yankees would be giving him better land and better tools, and feeding and protecting him until the first crop is ready. At the very least this should show him that keeping up the fight won't achieve anything - even if resentment continues. At the end of the day, we'll have to do with passive loyalty bred from self-interest when genuine loyalty bred from love of the Union is not possible.

Of course, that would be a fascinating timeline to read, too...
Indeed, but my goal is a better US and turning the South into Ireland won't do the trick.

Can't wait to see the week days
Would the rebels try to hold the capital like the Germans in 1945 or abandon it to attempt a guerrilla resistance. I mean with how paranoid the planter class has gotten, I can see them attempting to hold on until the bitter end.
Is Jesse james going to be around afterwards
I wonder if there going be many outlaws after the war
I hope there one last epic battle to end it
There will be outlaws for many years after the war. As for the battle, I am envisioning a magnificent last stand. Keep reading, we're approaching the end!

Is it pretty much accepted that the dominant Republican coalition after the war are going to be formed by the "good old boys" from the civil war (Northern WASPs, Southern Scalawags, Germans in places like Texas and Missouri, Scandanavians, and Old-Stock Freedmen), and the rest of the non-republicans are a scattered group of everyone else (Natives, anti-reconstruction Southerners, former Chestnuts, the Irish, Latin Americans, and immigrants from Eastern Europe, Southern Europe, the Middle East, East Asia, southeast asia, and later the Caribbean )?
The Native Americans sadly will probably not be part of the body politic anytime soon. But aside from that, the coalitions are really spot on. Still, at some point there probably won't be another realignment because it would be hard for a party to champion both the cause of the freedmen and of the robber barons.

Can the war end with a Roman Triumph down Pennsylvania Avenue?
Already picturing the scene of Lincoln finally returning the capital to Washington as the final sign that the war is truly over (though its problems continue).

That would be totally too Radical! No way they get land back east of the Mississippi. Maybe they get a better deal and the Indian Territory doesn't get turned into Oklahoma. I missed how the Dakota War played out TTL. With the situation in the east, the west might not get the same attention it did OTL? Maybe more folks get hanged in Mankato?
Unfortunately, not many Radicals seemed interested in the plight of Native Americans. Most subscribed to the idea that it was the destiny of the US to extend from sea to shinning sea, and the better ones envisioned a "fair deal" for Native Americans that was benign paternalism and eventual assimilation. They would be most likely to argue that Black people have as much as White people the right to rob Natives of their lands.

It's figured that it didn't happen. And while Red didn't use it explicitly, it seems he sort of accepted my quote that I provided which is the equivalent of his comment about Kentucy (which may be apocryphal anyway) OTL - "I would hope that God would be for us, but I must ensure that we have nobody else against us." (I think I changed the quote a little even now, so it probably is apocryphal - just like the Kentucky comment about how he must have it.)

In other words,more attempts were made to get food to them faster and thust the war was averted (and it was a matters of days OTL anyway, so it's easy to see.)
I think I did use that quote somewhere, in fact, but I have indeed adopted your idea that Lincoln, based on the more radical war, has made attempts to prevent "distractions" in the form of wars with Native American tribes. So yeah, I think it's canon that the food got there in time and conflict was mostly avoided.

That, incidentally, means that the largest mass execution in American history is instead the execution of 82 soldiers of Forrest's command for the Fort Pillow massacre and other war crimes.
 
Still, at some point there probably won't be another realignment because it would be hard for a party to champion both the cause of the freedmen and of the robber barons
This is the reason why I don't want a Grant Presidency. It was his presidency that solidified the GOP's stance as the champion of the robber barons.
 
This is the reason why I don't want a Grant Presidency. It was his presidency that solidified the GOP's stance as the champion of the robber barons.
I guess so, though I think arguably it isn't Grant that solidified those aptitudes, but rather the party changed and Grant changed with them. Especially because some of the advocates of the corrupt party rings and captains of industry were also Stalwarts that defended Black rights. It's complicated, and it certainly carries its risks, chiefly that Liberals saw this connection as proof of the inherent corruption of Reconstruction.
 
I guess so, though I think arguably it isn't Grant that solidified those aptitudes, but rather the party changed and Grant changed with them. Especially because some of the advocates of the corrupt party rings and captains of industry were also Stalwarts that defended Black rights. It's complicated, and it certainly carries its risks, chiefly that Liberals saw this connection as proof of the inherent corruption of Reconstruction.

This is true - some of the biggest proponents of machine rule were also the strongest, and most passionate, supporters of the rights of Freedmen. Conkling is often seen as a corrupt villain these days (and there are reasons for that), but he was also a dyed-in-the-wool supporter and proponent of Civil Rights - even long after that cause has eased to be fashionable; and this stance doesn't seem to have been mere political theatrics, as it hurt his career at times.

I think we too often look back at the past and expect to see our own experiences and politics reflected back at us; and sometimes they are. But more often than not, this causes us to minimize the complexity of what is going on. Sometimes those in favor of bossism actually were the strongest proponents of civil rights or another things we now (rghtfully) see as positive goods. And sometimes those who stood up against corruption (another good thing) weren't the most enlightened on matters of race, class, ethnicity and the like.

Of course, this also means that in 50 to 100 years, people are going to be projecting their own values backwards onto our own politics and getting equally confused!
 
I guess so, though I think arguably it isn't Grant that solidified those aptitudes, but rather the party changed and Grant changed with them. Especially because some of the advocates of the corrupt party rings and captains of industry were also Stalwarts that defended Black rights. It's complicated, and it certainly carries its risks, chiefly that Liberals saw this connection as proof of the inherent corruption of Reconstruction.
Ironically, the path of the Liberal Republicans ended up being the long-term path to the left IOTL.

Grant himself did a lot to drive the GOP to that path by doubling down on (covering his corrupt associates and not supporting reformers in his Cabinet) if not participating in (extreme nepotism) corruption. At the same time, he never advocated for classical social reforms of the old Whigs e.g. working hours or education - unlike men like Henry Wilson or Nathaniel Banks. Finally, the scandals created a perception that Grant and his party were corrupt. There was a Wikipedia page detailing Grant Administration scandals and all of them were not related to Reconstruction at all.

The long-term consequence is that at both national and grassroot levels, the GOP drove reformers, liberals, leftists away.

Sometimes those in favor of bossism actually were the strongest proponents of civil rights or another things we now (rghtfully) see as positive goods. And sometimes those who stood up against corruption (another good thing) weren't the most enlightened on matters of race, class, ethnicity and the like.
I am aware is this. However, the long-term problem is that advocacy for anti-corruption reforms also went hand in hand with leftism and advocacy for social reforms like those of the Progressive Era - because the former cause naturally attracted supporters of the latter cause and at the same alienated the Robber Barons who naturally preferred political patronage.
 
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This is true - some of the biggest proponents of machine rule were also the strongest, and most passionate, supporters of the rights of Freedmen. Conkling is often seen as a corrupt villain these days (and there are reasons for that), but he was also a dyed-in-the-wool supporter and proponent of Civil Rights - even long after that cause has eased to be fashionable; and this stance doesn't seem to have been mere political theatrics, as it hurt his career at times.

I think we too often look back at the past and expect to see our own experiences and politics reflected back at us; and sometimes they are. But more often than not, this causes us to minimize the complexity of what is going on. Sometimes those in favor of bossism actually were the strongest proponents of civil rights or another things we now (rghtfully) see as positive goods. And sometimes those who stood up against corruption (another good thing) weren't the most enlightened on matters of race, class, ethnicity and the like.

Of course, this also means that in 50 to 100 years, people are going to be projecting their own values backwards onto our own politics and getting equally confused!
It's indeed sometimes rather difficult to warp one's head around such political opinions. Nowadays, as you point out, progressive racial politics are almost always paired up with opposition to big companies and reformist economic politics. An interesting point to note is that most Black politicians supported patronage and machine politics because they believed that civil service reform would inevitably exclude them.

Ironically, the path of the Liberal Republicans ended up being the long-term path to the left IOTL.

Grant himself did a lot to drive the GOP to that path by doubling down on (covering his corrupt associates and not supporting reformers in his Cabinet) if not participating in (extreme nepotism) corruption. At the same time, he never advocated for classical social reforms of the old Whigs e.g. working hours or education - unlike men like Henry Wilson or Nathaniel Banks. Finally, the scandals created a perception that Grant and his party were corrupt. There was a Wikipedia page detailing Grant Administration scandals and all of them were not related to Reconstruction at all.

The long-term consequence is that at both national and grassroot levels, the GOP drove reformers, liberals, leftists away.


I am aware is this. However, the long-term problem is that advocacy for anti-corruption reforms also went hand in hand with leftism and advocacy for social reforms like those of the Progressive Era - because the former cause naturally attracted supporters of the latter cause and at the same alienated the Robber Barons who naturally preferred political patronage.
I don't believe that Grant was ever personally corrupt, but it's true that he tolerated a lot of corruption and defended the indefensible. I must note, however, that a lot of the factors that drove the reformists away had to do with Reconstruction policy. The Ku Klux Klan Act, for example, was undoubtedly just, yet several Republicans that would then become Liberal leaders opposed it on principle, including Schurz and Trumbull. At the end, it was not only the corruption of the Administration, but also racist and anti-democratic beliefs. I mean, many of them outright argued for restricting suffrage on the North on the basis of property!

Nonetheless, it was possible for someone to advocate for both reform and justice for the freedmen. Garfield is of course the clearest example, even if occupying that position meant that he probably wouldn't have adopted the more hard line measures Grant did. On the subject of methods, Grant also shows there the contradictions of the Stalwarts, for he fully supported the use of the Army to break down strikes, asking for very severe measures. But on the same breath he denounced those who had attacked him for intervening in the South, and pointedly remarked that if Black people were the ones organizing to deny the rights of Whites no one in the North would have doubted that the Army should have intervened.
 
The virgin Palpatine: Uses luck and carefully orchestrated situation to autocoup and declare himself Emperor of a fascist regime that barely lasts two decades before imploding.
Wouldn’t exactly say it was luck. The Sith had basically been carefully whittling away at, corrupting, and weakening the Republic behind the scenes for over a thousand years. Palpatine simply was able to take advantage of the established groundwork that his predecessors had already laid for him. The Jedi and the Republic were basically doomed long before Palpatine was declared Emperor and they basically lost and Palpatine won the moment the Clone Wars began.

Anyways, I do like that the ITTL 13th Amendment and the wording regarding ‘persons’ in it gives future women’s suffragists some nice legal ammunition to secure their own equal rights. I am curious to see what the reaction to the amendment in the Confederacy will be like however.
 
Wouldn’t exactly say it was luck. The Sith had basically been carefully whittling away at, corrupting, and weakening the Republic behind the scenes for over a thousand years. Palpatine simply was able to take advantage of the established groundwork that his predecessors had already laid for him. The Jedi and the Republic were basically doomed long before Palpatine was declared Emperor and they basically lost and Palpatine won the moment the Clone Wars began.

Anyways, I do like that the ITTL 13th Amendment and the wording regarding ‘persons’ in it gives future women’s suffragists some nice legal ammunition to secure their own equal rights. I am curious to see what the reaction to the amendment in the Confederacy will be like however.
Sheevey P had like 20 points in the prequels and Clone Wars show where a small divergence would've seen him dead and the Jedi picking up the pieces. Homeboy's Order 66 plan nearly got discovered because his cloners weren't able to make the slave chips work 100% of the time no failures.
 
I guess so, though I think arguably it isn't Grant that solidified those aptitudes, but rather the party changed and Grant changed with them. Especially because some of the advocates of the corrupt party rings and captains of industry were also Stalwarts that defended Black rights.

I think this is a pretty accurate characterization of the Grant Administration.

Grant had a culpable naivete in judging other political actors, but it would have been an uphill slog to overcome the developments you describe even if he had not.
 
How about Garfield going 1st in 1868?

I know, it's easier to see Grant in 1876 because Hayes was born the same year, and all you have to do is figure that he lives till just past his term like Polk or give him a VP who serves a few months. This lets Grant get political experience, serve somewhere as governor or Congressman or something, and he can be the one cracking down himself in the South even though Garfield is a little tentative.

So how do you get Garfield elected at his young age? Remember that he got elected to Congress. He could make a big name for himself there and also be known as AA good general. Then, just deadlock the 1868 convention and require a dark horse.

Alternatively, if Stanton is from the right state, Garfield can be as VP and then when Stanton dies on schedule hes basically Teddy Roosevelt walking into the position but doing great once there.
 
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This is the reason why I don't want a Grant Presidency. It was his presidency that solidified the GOP's stance as the champion of the robber barons.
I mean, big business elites were backers of the Republicans from the start. Opposing slavery was good business for many, so I don't know if we can put that at the feet of Grant.
 
I don't believe that Grant was ever personally corrupt, but it's true that he tolerated a lot of corruption and defended the indefensible. I must note, however, that a lot of the factors that drove the reformists away had to do with Reconstruction policy
The Liberal Republican defection would have been a lot smaller with a much less corrupt Grant Administration. There were anti-Reconstruction people, but there were also people who actually opposed corruption and the latter group seemed to be the majority. It is noted that the original goal of the Liberal Republican election campaign - before Greeley outmaneuvered C.F.Adams and gained nomination - was attacking corruption rather than Reconstruction.

Grant being not personally corrupt was not totally correct - he engaged in extreme nepotism and appointed like over 40 familiy members in his government, many of them were disastrous. Also, his handling of Santo Domingo annexation was just terrible and pissed off many people.

I mean, not engaging in nepotism, smashing Gold Ring and New York Custom House ring and other scandals, strongly supporting Interior/Navy/Justice/Treasury Department reforms, *cutting out people like Orville Babcock*... should not hinder his Reconstruction policies. He could have done all of them as advised by Hamilton Fish while still smashing the KKK in the south.

Nonetheless, it was possible for someone to advocate for both reform and justice for the freedmen. Garfield is of course the clearest example, even if occupying that position meant that he probably wouldn't have adopted the more hard line measures Grant did.
Benjamin Bristow is another example. And Grant's treatment of Bristow over the Whiskey Ring scandal is one example of how Grant hindered reformers who could have saved his legacy.

Amos Akerman, who was sacked by Grant for ruling against Union Pacific, also vigorously attacked the Klan while supporting reforms. He was replaced by a corrupt hack. It is very interesting that Akerman was a former Confederate.

So, I would say that a Lincoln third term or a non-Grant Presidency is better in 1868. Having Grant elected in 1872 would have been very different - he would at least have had a chance to observe and grasp the main issues arising between 1868 and 1872, and how Lincoln or another President handle them. IMO he would have been more careful in selecting people if he becomes President in a time when corruption is already a serious issue.
 
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Stanton would, if anything other than D.C., be said to be from Pennsylvania to the electors, so he could have Garfield as a VP. It would be 2 neighboring states and so not very balanced, but in some ways it would be - Ohio was seen as a Western state at the time - hence the New York balancing in that era - and Pennsylvania was solidly Eastern.

Bristow would be younger even than Garfield, so if Red isn't going to have Garfield elected in 1868 it's more sensible to make him VP under Stanton. His health was in decline partly because of the war, and with it being even more strenuous TTL, it would be very easy to see Stanton dying on schedule if not earlier; I think it's better to have Garfield as the VP because he has the political experience to take over if Stanton should be unable to function as President, along with the youth to allow him to do all the heavy lifting of the campaign to save Stanton's strength. Grant wouldn't be good VP matgerial becasue he has no political experience and is not, I believe, goin g to learn enough under Stanton int he time he has. I don't see Stanton lasting 2-3 years from what the Wiipedia article describes, anyway.

OTOH,withenough concerns about his health versus Grant's political naivete, a deadlocked convention is possible with Garfield as a compromise. He would just need an older, much more experienced VP. (Henry WIlson would be a good choice.)

As to why not Grant - who was unanimous OTL - LIncoln will hold quite a bit of sway here. He may well discuss some political operations with Grant and decide that Grant needs some seasoning first.I mean, I'm sure that if Grant were to discuss it with Lincoln, Lincoln would find out how many of Grant's own family and friends Grant wished to bring in. Lincoln with his skill would realize that this is not wise and tell Grant so, advising him to run for somethign else first and observe how it's done; obviously OTL Grant didn't have the benefit of someone like Lincoln to guide him. Having someone else for 2 terms (Or one for 1/2 a year and another for 7 1/2) is better.
 
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Wouldn’t exactly say it was luck. The Sith had basically been carefully whittling away at, corrupting, and weakening the Republic behind the scenes for over a thousand years. Palpatine simply was able to take advantage of the established groundwork that his predecessors had already laid for him. The Jedi and the Republic were basically doomed long before Palpatine was declared Emperor and they basically lost and Palpatine won the moment the Clone Wars began.

Anyways, I do like that the ITTL 13th Amendment and the wording regarding ‘persons’ in it gives future women’s suffragists some nice legal ammunition to secure their own equal rights. I am curious to see what the reaction to the amendment in the Confederacy will be like however.
The rebs probably are screaming bloody murder and denouncing Lincoln as the worst tyrant in history for, gasp!, recognizing Black rights. Their reaction will be explored in more depth in a future update.

I think this is a pretty accurate characterization of the Grant Administration.

Grant had a culpable naivete in judging other political actors, but it would have been an uphill slog to overcome the developments you describe even if he had not.
Frankly, it seems like mostly everyone in power was corrupt to some degree just because the era encouraged that kind of corruption. A massive expansion of Federal and state power that necessarily entailed expansions on budget and public spending, coupled with the increasing power and influence of companies, made corruption almost inevitable. It was not a Republican issue in the slightest, for the same Democrats that denounced corruption so ardently then turned out to be corrupt themselves. It's difficult, to say the least, to imagine that a postwar administration could fully escape corruption no matter who was President.

How about Garfield going 1st in 1868?

I know, it's easier to see Grant in 1876 because Hayes was born the same year, and all you have to do is figure that he lives till just past his term like Polk or give him a VP who serves a few months. This lets Grant get political experience, serve somewhere as governor or Congressman or something, and he can be the one cracking down himself in the South even though Garfield is a little tentative.

So how do you get Garfield elected at his young age? Remember that he got elected to Congress. He could make a big name for himself there and also be known as AA good general. Then, just deadlock the 1868 convention and require a dark horse.

Alternatively, if Stanton is from the right state, Garfield can be as VP and then when Stanton dies on schedule hes basically Teddy Roosevelt walking into the position but doing great once there.
I've been toying with Stanton, or perhaps another Republican closer to Lincoln, as President from 1869 to 1873. Grant would remain as an important military man, maybe General in-chief or Secretary of War, and thus the chief enforcer of Reconstruction, while a more experienced politician would manage the rest of the government and teach Grant how to be a politician. I don't know if Garfield is a feasible option, unless we pull a Teddy Roosevelt as you suggest. All of this is still in a very rough draft, of course.

I mean, big business elites were backers of the Republicans from the start. Opposing slavery was good business for many, so I don't know if we can put that at the feet of Grant.
For the most part, it was middle class industrialist and merchants that backed the Republican Party. This is because in the ante-bellum there weren't any big business elites as we conceive of them nowadays. Most factories were owned by a single person or family and only serviced their towns or a small regional market. Though there were trends of consolidation and expansion, the great industrial elites as we know them would become a thing in part thanks to the Civil War, which required the massive growth of wartime industries resulting at the same time in new modes of production and organization. It furthermore made several big fortunes as government contracts injected truly huge amounts of money into industry. And finally, because the South was devastated, industry surpassed cotton agriculture as the main economic activity of the US and the main lobby. This means that the textile merchants that usually supported the South and slavery in the antebellum ("lords of the loom and the lords of the lash") were replaced by industrial titans that made their fortunes equipping the Union Army and supported Republican policy (although, often the most conservative Republican policies). As this "Age of Capital" continued, the Robber Barons became more powerful and the Republican Party started to see itself not as the Party of emancipation and civil rights, but of conservative and "responsible" fiscal policy.

The Liberal Republican defection would have been a lot smaller with a much less corrupt Grant Administration. There were anti-Reconstruction people, but there were also people who actually opposed corruption and the latter group seemed to be the majority. It is noted that the original goal of the Liberal Republican election campaign - before Greeley outmaneuvered C.F.Adams and gained nomination - was attacking corruption rather than Reconstruction.

Grant being not personally corrupt was not totally correct - he engaged in extreme nepotism and appointed like over 40 familiy members in his government, many of them were disastrous. Also, his handling of Santo Domingo annexation was just terrible and pissed off many people.

I mean, not engaging in nepotism, smashing Gold Ring and New York Custom House ring and other scandals, strongly supporting Interior/Navy/Justice/Treasury Department reforms, *cutting out people like Orville Babcock*... should not hinder his Reconstruction policies. He could have done all of them as advised by Hamilton Fish while still smashing the KKK in the south.


Benjamin Bristow is another example. And Grant's treatment of Bristow over the Whiskey Ring scandal is one example of how Grant hindered reformers who could have saved his legacy.

Amos Akerman, who was sacked by Grant for ruling against Union Pacific, also vigorously attacked the Klan while supporting reforms. He was replaced by a corrupt hack. It is very interesting that Akerman was a former Confederate.

So, I would say that a Lincoln third term or a non-Grant Presidency is better in 1868. Having Grant elected in 1872 would have been very different - he would at least have had a chance to observe and grasp the main issues arising between 1868 and 1872, and how Lincoln or another President handle them. IMO he would have been more careful in selecting people if he becomes President in a time when corruption is already a serious issue.
I actually agree with most of your points, and whenever I consider having Grant as President I torture myself thinking of how his worst flaws can be mitigated and his qualities enhanced. I am rapidly arriving at the conclusion that Grant can't be president in 1869 because he would not be prepared enough. A factor that gives me a little more room to maneuver is that Grant was partially chosen as the Republican candidate in 1868 because the Party wanted to be absolutely sure it'd win - they needed his popularity as the General that won the Civil War. With Lincoln able to finish his second term, I assume the Party will be in a much stronger position.
 
Stanton wanted to be on the Supreme Court. In fact Grant appointed him and the Senate approved it but Stanton died before being sworn in.
 
Stanton wanted to be on the Supreme Court. In fact Grant appointed him and the Senate approved it but Stanton died before being sworn in.
I know, and that's another factor that makes me wary of Stanton as a possible candidate. He, in fact, has several flaws, including his brusque manner and Democratic past. It makes if it wouldn't be better to just have a third Lincoln term.
 
I know, and that's another factor that makes me wary of Stanton as a possible candidate. He, in fact, has several flaws, including his brusque manner and Democratic past. It makes if it wouldn't be better to just have a third Lincoln term.
Don't forget Seward or Chase. Arfield's youth isn't as much a problem for either as they aren't as ill in 1868. Plus, Seward had those injuries that might have cut his life short by a few years..

On the other hand, I remember reading that Garfield's grandmother was alive when he was inaugurated. While men and women have different genetics so it's not guaranteed he would live a long time, he could easily have become president later than OTL.

It just depends how long you want the Republicans to stay in power. You have a variety of options including just stretching that power through to 1889.
 
I actually agree with most of your points, and whenever I consider having Grant as President I torture myself thinking of how his worst flaws can be mitigated and his qualities enhanced. I am rapidly arriving at the conclusion that Grant can't be president in 1869 because he would not be prepared enough. A factor that gives me a little more room to maneuver is that Grant was partially chosen as the Republican candidate in 1868 because the Party wanted to be absolutely sure it'd win - they needed his popularity as the General that won the Civil War. With Lincoln able to finish his second term, I assume the Party will be in a much stronger position.

Well, this is also the era where we have a lot of one-term Republican Presidents in OTL (and, of course, Cleveland and what ever the hell THAT was, lol). Whether this was due to latant Whiggish tendencies which favored one-term Presidents or just factional fights within the party, I will leave up to you. In any case, its entirely plausible that the GOP nominates a guy in '68 and he wins - but perhaps proves to be unpopular (hell, give it to Holt. Lincoln would probably throw his support behind his VP and friend; and he's a former Dem who embraces Reconstruction and Civil Rights. A good unity candidate if nothing else. And having a border-state nominee might actually help bring Southron Unions into the tent. Yay) and in '72 they turn to our good friend Grant.

This gives Grant the chance to serve at least two terms as Governor. If he goes back to his native Ohio, the governor's seat is going to open up in 1866 (Charles Anderson had assumed the Governorship at the death of Governor John Brough and didn't stand for reelection that year). Not sure if he butted heads much with Senators Sherman and Ben Wade, but I doubt they'd work against the nomination of The (Other) Man Who Saved the Union. This gives him four-to-six years to build some experience with electoral politics and be mentored away from some of his worst instincts on appointments and the like.

Assuming Grant does well as President and serves two terms, from 73-1881 that gives us 20 years of uninterrupted Republican rule. It also gives whatever party is going to replace the Dems a good bit of time to work their own kinks out, come to grips with the post-war order and hopefully be able to be a legitimate opposition party that can regain the Presidency at that time and can govern well (because, by 1880, or 1884 at the latest, we're probably going to the GOP lose an election. And the opposition needs to be cleared of those who are goign to try to walk back Civil rights)

Edit: looked up the 1867 election in Ohio and it was a rough one for the GOP. Rutherford B Hayes put up a good fight and narrowly etched out a victory over Allen G. Thurman. The key issue was a proposed GOP bill to guarantee black suffrage in the state, which Hayes supported and which Thurman opposed (his son later became a committed eugenicist and baseball exec. Joys).

Naturally that bill won't be a central issue here because of the Constitutional Amendment will pass before then. But it seems that the 1866 midterms were hard of the GOP and the state party would be more than happy to have Ulysses S. "I Clobbered Robert E. Lee" Grant as their candidate that year. It would likely be enough for them to maintain their control of the State House.
 
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Good point, if the Whoever wins in 1880, Garfield can still win in '84 or '88,and that might be for the best. He was elected (by the legislature of course) to the senate in 1880 but instead became President.

Or, and this is pretty far out there, but if the other part ends up being more progressive in some thigns like Civil Service reform, labor, etc.,you * could *have Garfield as the head of the other party. It would take a while to work out the kinks, but you might be able to get the GOP divided along the right lines to do it. You've got 16 years to work with here.
 
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