MWI 40120622 Ole Jacob

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
1940, Friday 06 December;

Rear Admiral Paul Wenneker sat back in his chair with the great satisfaction of a job well done. He had poured himself a scotch, he had a full case of Glenlivet given to him as a present from the Ole Jacob, which had docked at Kobe a couple of days ago. He looked at the amber liquid in his glass and reflected on his achievements.

Within a couple of hours of docking, his man had been on Ole Jacob to welcome Lt Cmdr Kamenz, make arrangements for the prize crew’s accommodation, supervise the transfer of a large diplomatic bag of materials for the embassy back in Tokyo, and taken charge of some ‘documents’, which he’d returned with on the train, arriving the next morning.

Kamenz had sailed into Kobe with a captured Norwegian tanker, carrying 10,000 tons of aviation fuel, with 6 men and a compliant crew of Norwegians, promised release on arrival in Japan. Wenneker had just completed a deal with the Japanese Imperial Navy to exchange the fuel for 11,000 tons of diesel oil, and had started gathering a prize crew of Germans and Central Europeans in Tokyo to man her for a run through the blockade to France.

But that was business as usual, as it were. What excited him was the ‘documents’. In the ‘top secret’ marked mail bags were a large quantity of decoding tables, fleet orders, charts, gunnery instructions, and naval intelligence reports. And the jewel in the crown, so to speak, was a small green bag containing a British Chief of Staff’s appraisal of the Far East detailing their forces, shortfalls and strategies.

He remembered the growing excitement as he read through the appreciation detailing Britain’s military weaknesses and stances on what if scenarios. Basically, Britain couldn’t send a fleet, being fully committed at home and in the Med. Defence was reliant on the Army and Air Force, but neither was able to provide adequate forces. This led Britain to having to try and avoid an ‘open clash’ with Japan. The stance on Hong Kong was an understandable one, not really unexpected, but the revelations about not reacting if Japan occupied Indo-China, only an invasion of the Dutch East Indies would bring about a British reaction, outside of a direct attack on a British territory, was breathtaking.

How important this information was for Japan wasn’t lost on him, but nevertheless it wasn’t within his remit to share it with them. He sent a detailed four-part coded telegram to the German Naval HQ in Berlin almost straight away, then made a number of copies before, today sending Kamenz with the original to Berlin via the Trans-Siberian railway through Russia. He had no doubt Japan would be told and wondered what impact this would have on the war.
 
As in OTL I dare to assume. Though, this report predates TTL British decision to increase ground forces substantially, as RN and RAF are unable to send substantial forces. So, Japanese are going to go in as IOTL, but at least in regards to ground forces the British are going to be better off.

Can some more submarines be found anywhere? The R-class boats are a welcome addition, but considering the size of the area in question, it is still laughably small number. Ideally T-class (by this point even U-class would be good enough IMHO) boats should be sent in the area, if only in sufficient numbers to flesh out the submarine flotilla.
 
As in OTL I dare to assume. Though, this report predates TTL British decision to increase ground forces substantially, as RN and RAF are unable to send substantial forces. So, Japanese are going to go in as IOTL, but at least in regards to ground forces the British are going to be better off.

Can some more submarines be found anywhere? The R-class boats are a welcome addition, but considering the size of the area in question, it is still laughably small number. Ideally T-class (by this point even U-class would be good enough IMHO) boats should be sent in the area, if only in sufficient numbers to flesh out the submarine flotilla.
I agree, the information the Japanese will eventually receive is going to be out of date. No doubt they will realise that the British forces in Malaya will/have been reinforced. What I don’t think the Japanese wont appreciate (until it’s too late) is that the TTL command changes have already made Malaya a tougher nut to crack than OTL.

On subs I agree that they need more, but if just one of the boats already in the area gets into a decent position and fires a spread of torpedoes at the right targets, then arguably this single action could buy enough time for the reinforcements sent to save Malaya to arrive and make a difference (instead of going straight into the holding pens like OTL).
 
I agree, the information the Japanese will eventually receive is going to be out of date. No doubt they will realise that the British forces in Malaya will/have been reinforced. What I don’t think the Japanese wont appreciate (until it’s too late) is that the TTL command changes have already made Malaya a tougher nut to crack than OTL.

On subs I agree that they need more, but if just one of the boats already in the area gets into a decent position and fires a spread of torpedoes at the right targets, then arguably this single action could buy enough time for the reinforcements sent to save Malaya to arrive and make a difference (instead of going straight into the holding pens like OTL).
With submarines, the presence of British boats, will require the Americans work with them to set patrol zones and safe passage lanes. In the after hours discussions it will come out about the issues with magnetic detonators, if the Americans run any tests, it will show the flaws in the American detonators, and depth controls. This will fix 60% of the American torpedo issues, leaving only the faulty firing pin issue. Perhaps the Americans will get lucky and get the torpedoes moved from Cavite to Mirivales and Corrigidor in time to prevent their loss.
 
Low hanging fruit would be the withdrawal from Hong Kong of 2nd torpedo boat squadron with its 6 boats as well as the 2 insect gunboats (useful for patrolling the West coast) and maybe the old DD minelayers and have the MTBs at Kota Bharu to help defend the East Coast from invasion!
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
Can some more submarines be found anywhere? The R-class boats are a welcome addition, but considering the size of the area in question, it is still laughably small number. Ideally T-class (by this point even U-class would be good enough IMHO) boats should be sent in the area, if only in sufficient numbers to flesh out the submarine flotilla.
Ok, for Triune Kingdom and Derwitt specifically, and to cover off in general. The Odin, Parthian and Rainbow class submarines had all been designed to operate in the Far East, with Japan in mind. However, that theatre is still not at war, and may remain so, while the struggle in North Africa is very much a priority, one of only two ways Britain can really hit back at the Axis (the other being by Bomber Command). And fundamentally, that campaign would be won by whoever won on the logistical front. For Britain, supplies to Egypt had to be carried around the African continent, an enormous journey, over 14,000 miles, while for Italy, (Germany is only just coming into this) its about 450 miles from Palermo to Tripoli and 600 miles from Taranto to Tripoli. Its a no brainer to see who will win that one, oh but wait, there's that little island on the map, coloured pink, let me zoom in and read its name, Malta! Yes the Italian convoys have to sail past it, and with air and surface attack, the British can do some real damage. Of course, what would really help would be submarines. And so the Mediterranean became a graveyard for so many of Britain's submarine force.

I struggled with the idea that I could argue the Admiralty would allow the four submarines to remain in the Far East, asking myself, is this plausible. I think it is, given there are only four, admittedly the best, but anymore would be stretching it a bit to far for me. Regarding the classes, the U class was ideal for the Med, but not the Far East, while none of the Odin's, Parthian's, Rainbow's or T class were good in the Med, being far too big, but you have to fight with what you have.
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
With submarines, the presence of British boats, will require the Americans work with them to set patrol zones and safe passage lanes. In the after hours discussions it will come out about the issues with magnetic detonators, if the Americans run any tests, it will show the flaws in the American detonators, and depth controls. This will fix 60% of the American torpedo issues, leaving only the faulty firing pin issue. Perhaps the Americans will get lucky and get the torpedoes moved from Cavite to Mirivales and Corrigidor in time to prevent their loss.
Hi Butchpfd, I admire your continuity of thought, but I don't see these US torpedoes getting fixed any quicker in my TL
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
Low hanging fruit would be the withdrawal from Hong Kong of 2nd torpedo boat squadron with its 6 boats as well as the 2 insect gunboats (useful for patrolling the West coast) and maybe the old DD minelayers and have the MTBs at Kota Bharu to help defend the East Coast from invasion!
Cryhavoc 101, you and me have been on far too many previous forum discussions on Malaya, we both know what subjects are coming up, but only I know which way the TL will run, ha ha
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
oooh :love: from Cryhavoc101, where's my daisy, he loves me, he loves me not, he loves me, I've just killed off his favourite character, he loves me NOT
 
MWI 40121610 A New Role For The Princes

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
1940, Monday 16 December;

The Halifax shipyard manager looked at the new plans just in from Ottawa, Commander William Barclay Armit RCN sitting expectantly in anticipation, across the desk from him. The manager sighed and creased his brow in frustration and annoyance as he spoke. “Why can’t they make their bloody minds up, you do realise this will put the completion date back six weeks or more, maybe you can have her in early February. And I’m going to need a priority on steel plating to do this. You’re only getting just over 300 bunks for trooping, just what kind of a ship do the lordships want, an AMC and a trooper, or what?”

The RCN officer shrugged his shoulders and gave a small smile. “Ottawa changed its mind, rumour has it, Mackenzie King agreed something with Churchill. Anyway, Chief of the Naval Staff, Nelles, no less, has given it his blessings, so I think you’ll get what you want. As to why, I’m as in the dark as much as you are. But if it’s any comfort to you, the same thing is happening over at Canadian Vickers in Montreal with the Prince Henry”

The manager shook his head “Well it’s their money, but she was in a poor state of neglect when we took her in, rotten deck planks, a badly fouled hull, replacement of numerous valves as well as the auxiliary engines, and now these changes, it’s all coming to a pretty penny”

Outside the yard was busy, the Canadian National steamship Prince David had already had substantial work done, with her top two decks cut away, and the work to provide a new light cruiser superstructure, with a new naval bridge, the two forward funnels being raked into a single shorter one, with the third funnel being cut down as well, and the strengthening and fittings for the guns well in hand. New davits were to be provided, able to handle much larger boats.

Like her two sisters, she would be armed with a total of four six-inch guns, two three-inch AA guns, some light machine guns, and two depth charge racks, but the ASDIC wouldn’t be fitted until later, and fire control was only local. However, although they were looking more like warships, they still had the inherent basic weakness of large cargo and accommodation compartments extending across their hulls. That notwithstanding, their speed of 22 knots made them far too attractive to be ignored, and AMC Cruisers F89, HMCS Prince David and F70, HMCS Prince Henry would be joining the fleet soon, along with the already completed F56, HMCS Prince Robert.
 
What is the butterfly here regarding these 3 Canadian AMCs? I'm not picking up on how significant these changes are from OTL. A modest troop carrying capacity will allow what in this TL?
 
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You appear to have missed the fuel farm at Darwin. Darwin had been established as a secondary fleet base, with fuel, shells and so on established on shore. It was why the IJN attacked it on 19 February 1942, on it's way west to attack Ceylon. The holdings at Darwin were fairly extensive, with several hundred thousands of gallons of fuel oil stored there.

While not directly germane to this region, Im a bit curious about the bunker fuel storage at Wellington NZ ? Or Brisbane & other Australian ports.
 
With submarines, the presence of British boats, will require the Americans work with them to set patrol zones and safe passage lanes. In the after hours discussions it will come out about the issues with magnetic detonators, if the Americans run any tests, it will show the flaws in the American detonators, and depth controls. This will fix 60% of the American torpedo issues, leaving only the faulty firing pin issue. Perhaps the Americans will get lucky and get the torpedoes moved from Cavite to Mirivales and Corrigidor in time to prevent their loss.

I'd thought the torpedo sat Cavite were mostly or all the older Mk10 type with older detonators. The sub fleet in PI were mostly or all older S class boats.
 
What is the butterfly here regarding these 3 Canadian AMCs? I'm not picking up on how significant these changes are from OTL. A modest troop carrying capacity will allow what in this TL?
I’m guessing it has to do with Force C, the Canadian contingent sent to defend Hong Kong. I think it likely that in TTL, this force would be sent to Singapore instead.
OTL (according to Wiki) 2 battalions of Canadian infantry and some odds and sods where transported to Hong Kong aboard troopship Awatea and AMC Prince Robert (one of the ships mentioned in the last update). If the other 2 AMC get some accommodation added, they could in theory be added to the two OTL ships, perhaps to move the third battalion of the brigade and additional personnel.

Also much like the subs, the lack of equipment/personnel/weapons for the defence of Malaya was so acute that anything above OTL has the potential to create substantial butterflies. One that springs to mind is that the AMC‘s once in theatre are used to patrol the Malayan coast and one happens to be close enough to contest the landings at Kota Bharu. Realistic such an encounter is only going to end with the Canadian ships destruction, but a few 6” shells hitting one or more of the Japanese troopships could help derail the entire Japanese campaign. Although, more likely using the ship‘s radio to call in the cavalry (RAF) would be more useful (but much less dramatic!).
 
For one of the other forums but what a brilliant idea - A 20th/21st century Harry Paget Flashman. Possibly finding himself back in Afghanistan in 1980's nearly 150 years after his forebear fled Gandamak
 
WRT AMCs, the mentions of troop capacity and installation of davits capable of handling larger boats made me think that they all are being converted to Amphibious Warfare ships, LSI maybe?

That they deliver Canadian battalions to Singapore (instead into Japanese POW camps) is certainly a positive development, but even after their delivery is made, they could be put to good use in the theatre. Some additional amphibious ships would allow for reinforcing and/or evacuating Dutch East Indies, which could have some interesing consequences if British manage to pull it off? A long shot, but just an option.
Also, if they are still fitted with ASDIC, then they perhaps could be put to good use in escorting convoys in Indian Ocean? Extra escort ships would be a nice addition to RN forces in the area, if only because escort ships do not have to be sent from other theatres (Atlantic) or they even allow for ships with potentially greater combat value (if there are any) to be used elsewhere.
 
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