Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
Oh sure, the British actions were not illogical. Their policy towards the FIC and the DEI made sense given the circumstances, just as the policy of the DEI Governor General was
On the 27th of August the Japanese government gave the following directions to it's delegation to a conference between Japan and the DEI.
- The DEI should become part of the Greater Japanese Co-prosperity Sphere.
- The Indonesian people should get complete right of self-determination.
- There should be defense agreements between Japan and the DEI to secure peace in the region.
Of course these were broad, long-term goals. Practically the delegation was demanding the following:
- Various contracts for the delivery of raw resources.
- Specifically for oil: 3,8 million tons, up from the original 570,000 ton.
- The DEI had to declare that it would side with Japan politically.
- Free immigration and access for Japanese citizens.
- Japan should be able to search for resources.
- Japanese doctors should be allowed to work freely.
- Access the territorial waters for Japanese fishermen, with support points and companies being set up throughout the colony.
- Free access for Japanese shipping.
- A Japanese-DEI airservice.
- Increase of Japanese export to the DEI.
"Shinozaki had stood throughout the trial, maintaining an impassive face, trying to generate an aura of dignified respectability, while his defence lawyer, Mr Walters did his best to diminish the seriousness of two of the charges, and had successfully argued the third away, portraying Shinozaki merely as a Japanese journalist, who like to hold a party or two at his home in Wareham Rd, and you couldn’t help but to be in knowledge of something about Singapore’s defences given how numerous they were. Mr Griffith-Jones, the Deputy Public Prosecutor had cleverly countered with “A spy is no less a spy because he is a bad one, and a spy is no less a spy because the information he collects is inaccurate”. And the testimony from the gunner, Frank Gardner RA, who had seen the light, so to speak, and was singing like a canary, no doubt in hope of lessening his own sentence, when he would stand trial, was damming.
It had emerged from the trial, that Special Branch had been watching him since July, or more possibly, his home, as well as his contact, Gardner, but they hadn’t effectively monitored all his activities, as he’d spent quite a bit of early September taking a couple of Japanese Army General Staff officers, Lt Col Tankikawa and Capt Kunitake to various locations, not just on Singapore Island but also to Kota Tinggi and Mersing in Johore, as well as Malacca, to study British defensive capability. He thanked his lucky stars Special Branch hadn’t found that out, as the three years would have been considerably more." An excerpt from post # 190 by Fatboy Coxy.
Since the British are having some success at spy catching in TTL what might that mean regarding the activities and fate of this individual? He did have some detrimental effects on the RAF in Malaya. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Stanley_Vaughan_Heenan
It had emerged from the trial, that Special Branch had been watching him since July, or more possibly, his home, as well as his contact, Gardner, but they hadn’t effectively monitored all his activities, as he’d spent quite a bit of early September taking a couple of Japanese Army General Staff officers, Lt Col Tankikawa and Capt Kunitake to various locations, not just on Singapore Island but also to Kota Tinggi and Mersing in Johore, as well as Malacca, to study British defensive capability. He thanked his lucky stars Special Branch hadn’t found that out, as the three years would have been considerably more." An excerpt from post # 190 by Fatboy Coxy.
Since the British are having some success at spy catching in TTL what might that mean regarding the activities and fate of this individual? He did have some detrimental effects on the RAF in Malaya. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Stanley_Vaughan_Heenan
@Draconis
Brilliant piece of information....
I assume by this time the British had radio detection sets....so it would just be a matter of if they had prioritized sending to Far East....or in @Fatboy Coxy butterfly, if Gort's team would place an onus on internal security.... although initially I'm certain they would assume the threat would be from citizens with a Japanese background.
Brilliant piece of information....
I assume by this time the British had radio detection sets....so it would just be a matter of if they had prioritized sending to Far East....or in @Fatboy Coxy butterfly, if Gort's team would place an onus on internal security.... although initially I'm certain they would assume the threat would be from citizens with a Japanese background.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
OK, so wow, who would have thought 'The Singapore Conference' would generate so much debate, not I!
Historically, the Dutch didn't attend, and the Americans only provided one delegate, purely in the role as an observer. I'm not sure who he was, I think it was whoever was the USN liaison officer at the time, who was stationed in Singapore.
Now, on to the line
HJ Tulp was quick to pick up on this bit, sharp lad, clearly going to keep me on my toes. And slightly questioned what I wrote, which to me seemed quite innocuous, until I read it and realised I haven't provided any earlier context to allow this in here. You see the Dutch East Indies Government was in something of a predicament, militarily she was quite weak vis-à-vis Japan, and despite Holland being allied to Britain in their war with Germany and Italy, there was no treaty or agreement that the British would defend the Dutch East Indies from Japanese aggression. And certainly none from the USA, who's general public didn't want to be involved in foreign wars. So, publicly the DEI was trying to play a neutral hand, at the same time as privately looking for a defensive pact.
Now, in my timeline, in an effort to encourage that defensive pact, the Dutch are freely giving something, hoping it will persuade Britain to publicly declare their support for the DEI. It's been mentioned here and on other forums, about 'what if Japan attacked only Britain, and not the USA' . For the Dutch, that scenario is even more frightening!
Unfortunately, when I wrote this, I did so at the same time as the other conferences, (there's more conferences you say!) and I lost focus on the Dutch bit of this conference, concentrating on the change in time line, to getting the Dominions to actively provide what support they could to Malaya, rather than just discuss what defences were required for the whole of the Far East. As a result, this is poorly written, hence my explanation now.
The good news for HJ Tulp, who clearly is a DEI aficionado, is there will be a number of stories told from the Dutch perspective, and I shall expect some interesting debate from him (and others) on that (ha, that's put the pressure on him!)
Historically, the Dutch didn't attend, and the Americans only provided one delegate, purely in the role as an observer. I'm not sure who he was, I think it was whoever was the USN liaison officer at the time, who was stationed in Singapore.
Now, on to the line
HJ Tulp was quick to pick up on this bit, sharp lad, clearly going to keep me on my toes. And slightly questioned what I wrote, which to me seemed quite innocuous, until I read it and realised I haven't provided any earlier context to allow this in here. You see the Dutch East Indies Government was in something of a predicament, militarily she was quite weak vis-à-vis Japan, and despite Holland being allied to Britain in their war with Germany and Italy, there was no treaty or agreement that the British would defend the Dutch East Indies from Japanese aggression. And certainly none from the USA, who's general public didn't want to be involved in foreign wars. So, publicly the DEI was trying to play a neutral hand, at the same time as privately looking for a defensive pact.
Now, in my timeline, in an effort to encourage that defensive pact, the Dutch are freely giving something, hoping it will persuade Britain to publicly declare their support for the DEI. It's been mentioned here and on other forums, about 'what if Japan attacked only Britain, and not the USA' . For the Dutch, that scenario is even more frightening!
Unfortunately, when I wrote this, I did so at the same time as the other conferences, (there's more conferences you say!) and I lost focus on the Dutch bit of this conference, concentrating on the change in time line, to getting the Dominions to actively provide what support they could to Malaya, rather than just discuss what defences were required for the whole of the Far East. As a result, this is poorly written, hence my explanation now.
The good news for HJ Tulp, who clearly is a DEI aficionado, is there will be a number of stories told from the Dutch perspective, and I shall expect some interesting debate from him (and others) on that (ha, that's put the pressure on him!)
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Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Now I'm not going to comment on the use of tanks in Malaya at this point (how did they ever get into it from a piece on the Singapore Conference?) or any other future stuff, especially
Except to quote from that fine TV series Kung Fu, "Patience, young grasshopper"
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Ah yes, the Dutch Masters, oh of course 🤣Leave me alone! I'm trying to finish my masters damn you!
I wonder if it would be better for the British to flip Heenan to feed the Japanese false information?
A good idea. British secret service did this for a number of German agents quite successfully
Could there be an attempt to offer the free chinese, a larger role? Chang had an idea to help defend Singapore, with commando type units.
Well, sort of...
Many of the "Double-Cross" agents were captured and then impersonated by radio or mail, i.e. the agent himself did not "flip".
Nearly all the rest were pro-Allied and accepted Abwehr service with the intent of defecting, among them the renowned TRICYCLE, GARBO, and ZIGZAG.
Neither method would apply with Heenan, IMO.
MWI 40120213 A New Start
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1940, Monday 02 December;
Colonel Francis Reginald Grimwood sat at the table, his note book in front of him and reflected on all that had happened in the council meeting. He’d been called in to see Lord Gort on Friday, sworn to secrecy, and was told was to attend the meeting of Malaya’s War Council on Monday, where it would be proposed that he take over the role of Secretary, replacing Charles Archibald Vlieland.
The new chair, Governor Caldecott, had begun the meeting, expressing his concerns over how the War Council was configured and operated. He began quietly explaining the problems of the makeup of the Council. He proposed (pretty much ordered) changes to its constitution, suggesting an Executive War Council, made of himself as chair, Lord Gort, Admiral Layton, Lt General Percival and Air Vice Marshal Park and below that, a General War Council, with the above but with many others attending, covering a variety of roles.
He said he needed to reorganise some services, an example was that all the Straits Settlements, FMS and UMS Civilian Police would report to a newly created Chief Inspector General of Police, which would be the former Singapore Inspector General, Arthur Dickinson. Another was the creation of a Director General of Posts and Telegraphs, currently all telephone and telegraph systems were owned by the various states, he needed someone to at first co-ordinate, but hopefully control the different networks, ensuring commonality, and cooperation between the different depts. He’d given that job to Archibald Wilson, an administrator he knew from his previous time here in Singapore, and a man he trusted.
The Council was to meet every Monday, here at Government House, the Executive Council at 9am, and the General War Council from 10am to 12.30pm. From that there were to be sub committees formed as required, reporting back to the Executive and Council.
He then moved onto the role of the Secretary of War Council, and turned, pointedly looking directly at Charles Vlieland. He was disparaging of the fact that previously there were no agenda’s, records of discussion, no minutes of decisions taken. He thought the way the Council had acted had been amateurish, had previously been an inconvenience to their protected normal life, and it wasn’t even capable of organising a drink in a bar!
Well, he intended to start again, with a clean broom. Consequently, there would be a new secretary …. Old starchy Archie’s face had been a wonderment of disbelief, and public humiliation, while a few of the others had looked very sheepish. Caldecott had presented to them a new constitution, which he then read out, listing who had right to attend what, with dates and venues, roles and responsibilities, requirements and expectations. It was detailed, hard hitting, no nonsense. Caldecott paused from talking, and slowly looked around the room, at each face, almost daring anyone to object. Silence, while they waited for him, OK he said, I move the motion, is there a seconder, yes said Gort, any opposition, another silence, good then, that’s carried.
Now he went on to explain how he had taken the liberty of expecting the changes and had written individual letters to each of them, asking for them to make themselves aware of their roles and responsibilities, and to be prepared for questions at the following meeting, next Monday. He then turned and asked Grimwood, who had been sitting behind him, to step forward, and he introduced him as the new secretary, telling them Grimwood’s contact details were in their letters, and they should correspond through him. And with that he closed the meeting.
Yes, Francis Grimwood thought, a lot of changes, and clearly a lot more to come. The request to take up the role of secretary had come as a complete surprise, worry even, it had been suggested he was going to command the Strait Settlements Volunteer Force, which, at 49, was clearly an ending to his career. He’d not said anything to anyone, that wasn’t his way, but he had written that in his diary, resigned to the fates of life. But now, after this morning, it looked like fate had chosen a different path for him, a very busy one, with a ringside seat on history in the making.
The War Council
Made up of the Executive Committee and General Council
Executive War Council
Chair – Sir Andrew Caldecott
CinC Far East – Lord Gort
CinC China Station – Vice Adm Geoffrey Layton, later Sir Tom Phillips
GOC Malaya Command – Lt Gen Arthur Percival
AOC Far East Air Force – Air Vice Mar Keith Park
Secretary of War Council – Col Francis Grimwood
General War Council
Propaganda and Press Control – Sir George Sansom
Australian Government – Vivian Bowden
Australian Army – Maj Gen Gordon Bennett, later Maj Gen Sydney Rowell
Colonial Secretary – Stanley Jones, (later Hugh Fraser)
Chief Justice - Sir Harry Herbert Trusted
Chief Inspector General of Police – Arthur Dickinson
FMSR General manager - Leslie M Smart
Harbours – GM Singapore Harbour Board, Henry Knight Rodgers
Food Controller - Norman Rowlstone Jarrett
Public Works Department, Director – Reginald Lewis Nunn
Director General of Posts & Telegraphs, Malaya – Archibald Wilson
Colonel Francis Reginald Grimwood sat at the table, his note book in front of him and reflected on all that had happened in the council meeting. He’d been called in to see Lord Gort on Friday, sworn to secrecy, and was told was to attend the meeting of Malaya’s War Council on Monday, where it would be proposed that he take over the role of Secretary, replacing Charles Archibald Vlieland.
The new chair, Governor Caldecott, had begun the meeting, expressing his concerns over how the War Council was configured and operated. He began quietly explaining the problems of the makeup of the Council. He proposed (pretty much ordered) changes to its constitution, suggesting an Executive War Council, made of himself as chair, Lord Gort, Admiral Layton, Lt General Percival and Air Vice Marshal Park and below that, a General War Council, with the above but with many others attending, covering a variety of roles.
He said he needed to reorganise some services, an example was that all the Straits Settlements, FMS and UMS Civilian Police would report to a newly created Chief Inspector General of Police, which would be the former Singapore Inspector General, Arthur Dickinson. Another was the creation of a Director General of Posts and Telegraphs, currently all telephone and telegraph systems were owned by the various states, he needed someone to at first co-ordinate, but hopefully control the different networks, ensuring commonality, and cooperation between the different depts. He’d given that job to Archibald Wilson, an administrator he knew from his previous time here in Singapore, and a man he trusted.
The Council was to meet every Monday, here at Government House, the Executive Council at 9am, and the General War Council from 10am to 12.30pm. From that there were to be sub committees formed as required, reporting back to the Executive and Council.
He then moved onto the role of the Secretary of War Council, and turned, pointedly looking directly at Charles Vlieland. He was disparaging of the fact that previously there were no agenda’s, records of discussion, no minutes of decisions taken. He thought the way the Council had acted had been amateurish, had previously been an inconvenience to their protected normal life, and it wasn’t even capable of organising a drink in a bar!
Well, he intended to start again, with a clean broom. Consequently, there would be a new secretary …. Old starchy Archie’s face had been a wonderment of disbelief, and public humiliation, while a few of the others had looked very sheepish. Caldecott had presented to them a new constitution, which he then read out, listing who had right to attend what, with dates and venues, roles and responsibilities, requirements and expectations. It was detailed, hard hitting, no nonsense. Caldecott paused from talking, and slowly looked around the room, at each face, almost daring anyone to object. Silence, while they waited for him, OK he said, I move the motion, is there a seconder, yes said Gort, any opposition, another silence, good then, that’s carried.
Now he went on to explain how he had taken the liberty of expecting the changes and had written individual letters to each of them, asking for them to make themselves aware of their roles and responsibilities, and to be prepared for questions at the following meeting, next Monday. He then turned and asked Grimwood, who had been sitting behind him, to step forward, and he introduced him as the new secretary, telling them Grimwood’s contact details were in their letters, and they should correspond through him. And with that he closed the meeting.
Yes, Francis Grimwood thought, a lot of changes, and clearly a lot more to come. The request to take up the role of secretary had come as a complete surprise, worry even, it had been suggested he was going to command the Strait Settlements Volunteer Force, which, at 49, was clearly an ending to his career. He’d not said anything to anyone, that wasn’t his way, but he had written that in his diary, resigned to the fates of life. But now, after this morning, it looked like fate had chosen a different path for him, a very busy one, with a ringside seat on history in the making.
The War Council
Made up of the Executive Committee and General Council
Executive War Council
Chair – Sir Andrew Caldecott
CinC Far East – Lord Gort
CinC China Station – Vice Adm Geoffrey Layton, later Sir Tom Phillips
GOC Malaya Command – Lt Gen Arthur Percival
AOC Far East Air Force – Air Vice Mar Keith Park
Secretary of War Council – Col Francis Grimwood
General War Council
Propaganda and Press Control – Sir George Sansom
Australian Government – Vivian Bowden
Australian Army – Maj Gen Gordon Bennett, later Maj Gen Sydney Rowell
Colonial Secretary – Stanley Jones, (later Hugh Fraser)
Chief Justice - Sir Harry Herbert Trusted
Chief Inspector General of Police – Arthur Dickinson
FMSR General manager - Leslie M Smart
Harbours – GM Singapore Harbour Board, Henry Knight Rodgers
Food Controller - Norman Rowlstone Jarrett
Public Works Department, Director – Reginald Lewis Nunn
Director General of Posts & Telegraphs, Malaya – Archibald Wilson
I wonder in TTL how many days after the Japanese attack will it take for Lord Gort to realise that Percival is out of his depth and take personal command of the Army in Malaya? Or is it more likely that as larger forces are deployed pre invasion Gort manages to get a higher quality GOC Malaya in place before December 1941? Either way I feel that Percival’s days are numbered.
I'm not sure about that. I've seen a few assessments about him being a very good organiser/staff officer type and decent enough in command when there are clear orders to follow, just utterly incapable of taking the next step up and setting direction and making the big decisions.
If Gort is in place providing all that then Percival's weaknesses won't get exposed. He may never be a great general, but he could well be good enough.
Was Percival not the guy who opposed the buidling of defensive positions, reasoning that, building defensive field works would be bad for morale and would give the wrong impression to the civilansor so?
No, that was the Colonial Secretary. Percival was in favour of building defensive works.