When you Wish Upon a Frog (Book II of the Jim Henson at Disney saga)

[Denliner]

I hadn't planned on getting into detail on all the DTs (just no time) unless @Denliner or someone wanted to go for it.

Well we don't need a deep dive on all of the Disneytowns, since Denver, Seattle, Chicago, and others didn't get the same treatment as Philadelphia did and we know that Disney often uses recycled or reimagined versions of rides and lands in the Disneytowns.

As said before, Disneytown London is basically an extension of Chessington with a Jungle Book inspired Adventureland to complement the theme park. Ontario is a bit of a mystery, but I suggested that it could be Fantasyland inspired, which is ironic considering it's hidden within a metallic shell akin to the Imagination Pavilion (but maybe it's fitting because of that).

Sydney will get a post on its expansions (and why it will be different from other Disneytowns), such as the White Bay Power Station and so forth.

The Brave Little Toaster - sounds like a risk, and I can see how the traditional animators might feel threatened by it.

One thing that really sucks about that post is that it heralded the domination of CG animation just like OTL. It's pretty depressing considering how beautiful Disney 2D animation is during the Renaissance, but I can see why it would be so popular. Hopefully Disney does not fully abandon 2D animation like it did in our timeline.

As to the Enchanted Tiki Room, well, there are worse things in the park at this time (*cough* Jungle Cruise *cough*).

I can't imagine Disney even thinking about removing the Enchanted Tiki Room. That's completely unacceptable.

As for the Jungle Cruise, it is infinitely more problematic, but not necessarily because of the Tiki Culture (I don't even think it plays into the same aesthetic). Note that Disney has made some good strides in improving the story of the Jungle Cruise in recent times (which is made easier by the inclusion of the Society of Explorers and Adventurers). I can see Disney doing the same exact thing, but even earlier due to the butterflies that are to come.

When Disneytowns start showing their success will cities start lobbying Disney to put one in their area?

Perhaps. Disney has already shown that Disneytowns are a relatively cheap investment and caters to a much wider/available demographic that their standard parks (to the point where it threatens the existence of future mainline theme parks that are much more high-risk, high-reward).

That being said, Recreation can't simply pop them out for every single city in the U.S. or Europe, and I doubt every city is clamoring for a Disney invasion, no matter how small. For example, I don't think France is going to ask for a Disneytown, whereas Italy, the Sovereign Union, or even Germany is more receptive to the idea. Tourists in Paris aren't going to flock towards the Disneytown in huge numbers because Valencia exists (and they are there for French attractions anyways), so that leaves the locals, especially the lower classes, and I have high doubts they want Disney anyways.

 

[Migrant_Coconut]

Perhaps a combination of a successful Dark Crystal release and Willow series might motivate him earlier? Granted homeschooling is definitely gonna limit his avenues to improve his own writing. Maybe he visited Epcot and did the make your movie in the Entertainment Pavillion, and was given some script writing tips from a cast member?

It'd definitely help if he's got more influences to draw from than just Star Wars and LOTR... though I'm pretty sure it'll take more than one cast member to get through all the godawful Purple Prose.

 

[Geekhis Khan]

Water World (1993)
From “Eight Mockbusters of the last 25 years Actually Worth Seeing,” CulturePolice.co.uk Netsite, June 26th, 2012

Not Quite This

What it cashes in on: Mad Max series

Notable actors: Scott Valentine, Vanessa Angel, Kimberly J. Brown, Brian Bonsall, Bruce Fucking Campbell

Whom to blame: Roger Corman, Peter Rader, and Brad Krevoy[1]

Why it’s worth your bloody time:

It’s a zero-budget, “family-friendly” Mad Max…on water! Released by Roger Corman’s New World Pictures, needless to say, Water World is a post-apocalyptic world where melting icecaps have submerged all dry land on Earth and the handful of remaining (and deeply inbred, and almost entirely white) humans cling to little artificial islands or live as boat nomads. And yes, science nerds, there’s not enough bloody ice on all of Earth to flood all dry land, but the laws of physics, much like the rules on color composition, cinematic lighting, creative screenwriting, and natural acting, do not apply to this film. The film started off as some campy film for kids, but via rewrites got turned into an ostensibly serious adventure story, but not far enough, hence how you get Disney-like slapstick of our kid lead evading some bumbling pirates Home Alone style followed by his mom nigh-poledancing while shooting raiders.

Clearly filmed in a studio pool or just off of the beach and using a handful of awkwardly refurbished jet skis, surfboards, and bass boats – and the clearly-a-model Exxon tanker – the story manages to occasionally, one would expect accidentally, evoke a feeling of endless waters. The villainous “Smokers”, led by The Deacon of the Deep (the great Bruce Campbell at his hammy best), are this floundering crap-fest's saving grace. One-part outlaw motorcycle gang, one-part Vikings, one-part Aquaman villains, and rest-part Pirate-themed BDSM club, they're all something to behold. Campbell, who clearly understands the film that he’s in, gives us over-the-top villainy that would make Brian Blessed, Gary Busey, or even Denis Hopper blush.

By comparison, our “heroes”, young Theseus (Brian Bonsall) and The Mariner (Scott Valentine) are respectively at best merely competent and at worst dull as dishwater. Mariner's supposed to be a dashing-but-shady swashbuckler of the Han Solo type and father figure, but instead comes off as a total self-serving prick, especially when he casually abuses a little girl and only starts acting decent at the climax, with little set-up along the way for a change of heart. The pinnacle of his screentime is when he drinks his own filtered piss. Theseus merely exists for his adult self to narrate the film, make a few one-liners and helps pull a Deus Ex Machina out for the Mariner. The film's love interest, Theseus' mom Helen (Vanessa Angel), has less good chemistry with the Mariner than you’d see in a 3rd grade science fair project, is way too young-looking to be the maternal/MILF figure she’s supposed to be, and seems to exist to give a soaking bonus to both parents and teens. Nine-year-old sibling Enola, who has a map to the last dry land on Earth tattooed on her back (which occasionally “smears” in the water like all real tattoos do), is a living MacGuffin and is treated like it by the “hero” and the writers alike (though at least Bonsall and Vanessa try to act like she's family).

But OMG, The Deacon of the Deep! Ham and Cheese on Wry! Campbell shows why he is the Lawrence Olivier of B Movies as he devours every set and drinks up the whole damned ocean. The Smokers are supposed to represent pollution and devouring industry in this ham-fisted environmental metaphor, but in the end, you root for them! Campbell even gets a rocking diegetic villain song, “Drown ‘Em”, where among other things he smacks insubordinates with barracudas akimbo and rides a shark like a Bull, like something out of a Disney movie[2]! Even The Deacon’s smarmy (and creepy, and wholly unnecessary and gratuitous) interest in Enola and Theseus at least manages to treat them as more than a prop, even as you can almost literally see Campbell look at the director as if to say “really? I have to say that to nine-year-olds?”

From its ludicrous concept to its cheesy title to its mishmash tone to its asinine dialog to its dislikable hero to its burning strawman of a villain, Water World's everything that a bad movie should be[3].

---

[1] Who created it specifically as a low-budget “Mad Max on the Water”. Here they get their wish. Hat tip to @Plateosaurus for the assist on this one.

[2] Eventually a song cover is made of it by They Might be Giants that sells gold. Bruce however, doesn't like his song, saying in All You Need is a Chin “If you're having trouble picturing me singing... well that's because I can't.”

[3] Film will break at box office, making $12 million in US against $5 million budget, and does way better...overseas, {insert rimshot} making $28 million, resulting in a nice $40 million gross. A good chunk of this comes from Japan, and even influences a couple manga/anime and games for Nintendo. Corman was pleased with that.

 

[Ogrebear]

Water World- OMG somehow you made it worse and better! Kudos @Geekhis Khan kudos!

"Campbell, who clearly understands the film that he’s in, gives us over-the-top villainy that would make Brian Blessed, Gary Busey, or even Denis Hopper blush." - sounds awesome!

$40 mill over$5 budget? Solid performer then.

Amazing work.

 

[Plateosaurus]

Water World (1993)
From “Eight Mockbusters of the last 25 years Actually Worth Seeing,” CulturePolice.co.uk Netsite, June 26th, 2012

Not Quite This

What it cashes in on: Mad Max series

Notable actors: Scott Valentine, Vanessa Angel, Kimberly J. Brown, Brian Bonsall, Bruce Fucking Campbell

Whom to blame: Roger Corman, Peter Rader, and Brad Krevoy[1]

Why it’s worth your bloody time:

It’s a zero-budget, “family-friendly” Mad Max…on water! Released by Roger Corman’s New World Pictures, needless to say, Water World is a post-apocalyptic world where melting icecaps have submerged all dry land on Earth and the handful of remaining (and deeply inbred, and almost entirely white) humans cling to little artificial islands or live as boat nomads. And yes, science nerds, there’s not enough bloody ice on all of Earth to flood all dry land, but the laws of physics, much like the rules on color composition, cinematic lighting, creative screenwriting, and natural acting, do not apply to this film. The film started off as some campy film for kids, but via rewrites got turned into an ostensibly serious adventure story, but not far enough, hence how you get Disney-like slapstick of our kid lead evading some bumbling pirates Home Alone style followed by his mom nigh-poledancing while shooting raiders.

Clearly filmed in a studio pool or just off of the beach and using a handful of awkwardly refurbished jet skis, surfboards, and bass boats – and the clearly-a-model Exxon tanker – the story manages to occasionally, one would expect accidentally, evoke a feeling of endless waters. The villainous “Smokers”, led by The Deacon of the Deep (the great Bruce Campbell at his hammy best), are this floundering crap-fest's saving grace. One-part outlaw motorcycle gang, one-part Vikings, one-part Aquaman villains, and rest-part Pirate-themed BDSM club, they're all something to behold. Campbell, who clearly understands the film that he’s in, gives us over-the-top villainy that would make Brian Blessed, Gary Busey, or even Denis Hopper blush.

By comparison, our “heroes”, young Theseus (Brian Bonsall) and The Mariner (Scott Valentine) are respectively at best merely competent and at worst dull as dishwater. Mariner's supposed to be a dashing-but-shady swashbuckler of the Han Solo type and father figure, but instead comes off as a total self-serving prick, especially when he casually abuses a little girl and only starts acting decent at the climax, with little set-up along the way for a change of heart. The pinnacle of his screentime is when he drinks his own filtered piss. Theseus merely exists for his adult self to narrate the film, make a few one-liners and helps pull a Deus Ex Machina out for the Mariner. The film's love interest, Theseus' mom Helen (Vanessa Angel), has less good chemistry with the Mariner than you’d see in a 3rd grade science fair project, is way too young-looking to be the maternal/MILF figure she’s supposed to be, and seems to exist to give a soaking bonus to both parents and teens. Nine-year-old sibling Enola, who has a map to the last dry land on Earth tattooed on her back (which occasionally “smears” in the water like all real tattoos do), is a living MacGuffin and is treated like it by the “hero” and the writers alike (though at least Bonsall and Vanessa try to act like she's family).

But OMG, The Deacon of the Deep! Ham and Cheese on Wry! Campbell shows why he is the Lawrence Olivier of B Movies as he devours every set and drinks up the whole damned ocean. The Smokers are supposed to represent pollution and devouring industry in this ham-fisted environmental metaphor, but in the end, you root for them! Campbell even gets a rocking diegetic villain song, “Drown ‘Em”, where among other things he smacks insubordinates with barracudas akimbo and rides a shark like a Bull, like something out of a Disney movie[2]! Even The Deacon’s smarmy (and creepy, and wholly unnecessary and gratuitous) interest in Enola and Theseus at least manages to treat them as more than a prop, even as you can almost literally see Campbell look at the director as if to say “really? I have to say that to nine-year-olds?”

From its ludicrous concept to its cheesy title to its mishmash tone to its asinine dialog to its dislikable hero to its burning strawman of a villain, Water World's everything that a bad movie should be[3].

---

[1] Who created it specifically as a low-budget “Mad Max on the Water”. Here they get their wish. Hat tip to @Plateosaurus for the assist on this one.

[2] Eventually a song cover is made of it by They Might be Giants that sells gold. Bruce however, doesn't like his song, saying in All You Need is a Chin “If you're having trouble picturing me singing... well that's because I can't.”

[3] Film will break at box office, making $12 million in US against $5 million budget, and does way better...overseas, {insert rimshot} making $28 million, resulting in a nice $40 million gross. A good chunk of this comes from Japan, and even influences a couple manga/anime and games for Nintendo. Corman was pleased with that.

Glad it got here, Geekhis. Didn't expect it soon.

Spoiler: Behind the scenes

(Although I do feel there are a few things that could still be changed or I didn't anticipate. For one I intended the song Drown 'Em to be by a rapper or hip hop, not TMBG of all people. Should've made that clear.)

You can expect said anime/manga and games to be mentioned at least once in the future for not only Nintendo, but whatever console Sony makes, assuming it even gets into the business. Hooray for Germans Love David Hasseholf!

 

[Nathanoraptor]

Re: ASOIAF, I agree totally with @Shiny_Agumon here. And here's why:

And while we#re at it, who needs LoTR? Have Peter Jackson adapt A Song of Ice and Fire.

I think a live-action LOTR film is an eventuality no matter what happens ITTL - there had been discussions in Hollywood about one since, I think, 1957. There was one with the Beatles (yes, really), that would have been directed by Stanley Kubrick, and I think John Boorman almost did one... which composited all three books into a single film. Perhaps more importantly, the epic fantasy genre doesn't really get much of a booster without an LOTR that works.

I haven't read of the ASoIaF books but considering that the average run time for Peter Jackson's six Middle-Earth is 172 minutes with The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies being the shortest at 144 minutes. Do you believe that nearly three hours isn't enough time for a film?

For ASOIAF? No. A thousand times no.

The books are way too long and complicated for a film - you could make about three individual books out of all the POVs from the second book onwardst. Really.

It's what they did with Harry Potter and either way, there are always director's cuts to consider. I believe it could work, provided they remember that this isn't a high fantasy adventure they're working with.

So... who, in your opinion, should be cut out? Which characters/plotlines get removed in a hypothetical film series (which is going to be pretty restrictive, since you have to cram a whole story in, what, two, three hours)?

Remember, the second half of Game of Thrones OTL already cut out a lot of characters and plotlines (e,g, Young Griff/F!Aegon, Lady Stonehart, Sansa's Vale arc, the whole Dorne plotline with Arianne Martell), which are probably going to be important in the last two books. So who, in the more restrictive environment of a film, should go on the chopping block?

(This isn't a confrontation, @Igeo654 - just a question).

 

[TheFaultsofAlts]

This timeline's version of Water World makes me eager to see what projects were inspired by it. Especially if Nintendo got in on the hype eventually.

With that said, is there any way we can see the MST3K staff get contracted by Warner Bros. to make a Muppets clone out of the Looney Tunes cast? We even have our host and drummer in the forms of Bugs Bunny and Taz!

 

[Shiny_Agumon]

So Waterworld is a successful mockbuster instead of a failed blockbuster?
Ironic

But what about the post apocalyptic story that Costner brought to Turner? Is it actually Postman?

Anyways, great chapter @Geekhis Khan

 

[Denliner]

Waterworld sounds like a film that is "so bad that it's good" given its cheesiness and the hammy performances, but hey, at least it was received well enough for the general audience, allowing it to make a decent profit.

As always, great post Geekhis.

But what about the post apocalyptic story that Costner brought to Turner? Is it actually Postman?

I'm hoping that it would be the case. I can see The Postman be very similar to Waterworld in terms of reception and box office.

For ASOIAF? No. A thousand times no. The books are way too long and complicated for a film.

Yup, ASOIAF is simply too long (7 books instead of a trilogy) and involves multiple POV perspectives, something that is a better fit for a TV series ITTL. I don't really understand why GRRM would even agree to a film deal by the late 90s when he hasn't even begun to do his 3rd book, assuming we're going by OTL release.

LOTR or Harry Potter is just much better suited for a movie series. Heck, even The Wheel of Time or His Dark Materials would work.

 

[Igeo654]

Just out of interest, has anyone done anything with Discworld ITTL? I forget. If not, a Jackson adapted version of that would work better than Ice and Fire.

 

[GrahamB]

Just out of interest, has anyone done anything with Discworld ITTL? I forget. If not, a Jackson adapted version of that would work better than Ice and Fire.

Mort has a well-received animated adaptation via Disney, it's likely that relationship will continue with select Discworld novels.
It's only now (early to mid 90s) that Pratchett is really hitting his stride so if there's going to be more Discworld it'll be in future updates.

 

[TheFaultsofAlts]

Just out of interest, has anyone done anything with Discworld ITTL? I forget. If not, a Jackson adapted version of that would work better than Ice and Fire.

Disney used the book Mort as a feature film. To say that people were initially shocked was an understatement.

EDIT: I got Naruto'd!

 

[Igeo654]

Well, since Tolkein is going to get adapted regardless, All I can say is that I'd love to see John Williams score those movies while Howard Shore composes for Merlin. Meanwhile, who wants to see Wild Cards on the Big Screen?

 

[Daibhid C]

You know he also writes children's novels, right?
Mind you, I think the greatest barrier to children reading the 'adult' Discworld books is that they wouldn't be old enough to get some of the references.

When Terry contributed a story to a fantasy collection aimed at young adults (Hidden Turnings, ed. Diane Wynne-Jones), he, like all the contributers, was asked to list some other works he'd written aimed at that age group. He recommended the Discworld series because "I genuinely wrote them with no age group in mind, so if you're old enough to understand the jokes, you're old enough to read them. My mum isn't."

Gotta say though, I'm reading The Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents and I think it would make an excellent film adaptation, animated or live with creatureworks.

This is actually happening OTL:

First Look character images from The Amazing Maurice

Sky today reveals First Look character images and teaser poster for The Amazing Maurice, a Sky Original to mark the 20th Anniversary of the book by Sir Terry Pratchett.

www.narrativia.com

I'm a bit unsure about the Maurice design, but still very excited about it.

 

[GrahamB]

I'm a bit unsure about the Maurice design, but still very excited about it.

Agreed, Maurice specifically is called out for being a very beat-up alley cat. I'm sure the movie will be fine, I've zero issues with the casting, the character designs just look rather clean for Terry's usual 'everything's grubby and smells bad, that's the joke' fare. I'd have to see the scenery art to really tell.

 

[Denliner]

Mort has a well-received animated adaptation via Disney, it's likely that relationship will continue with select Discworld novels.
It's only now (early to mid 90s) that Pratchett is really hitting his stride so if there's going to be more Discworld it'll be in future updates.

I don't see why Disney would not make a show similar to the OTL Discworld TV series with Terry Pratchett. I can see it become extraordinarily popular during the 2000s, especially if we move closer to the generation that is more internet/social media savvy (think Tumblr fan blogs or Subreddits).

 

[TheFaultsofAlts]

I don't see why Disney would not make a show similar to the OTL Discworld TV series with Terry Pratchett. I can see it become extraordinarily popular during the 2000s, especially if we move closer to the generation that is more internet/social media savvy (think Tumblr fan blogs or Subreddits).

And speaking of the tech savvy generation, if those guys can give a romantic following to Illumination's take on The Onceler, then I shudder to think how they'd flock to Discworld's version of Death.

 

[Shiny_Agumon]

And speaking of the tech savvy generation, if those guys can give a romantic following to Illumination's take on The Onceler, then I shudder to think how they'd flock to Discworld's version of Death.

I mean the Illumination Onceler looks like Zack Efron so that was to be expected.

But otherwise I agree. Discworld is going to be huge for the nerds! If Funko Pops become a thing in this Timeline I can see a bunch based on Discworld coming.

 

[nick_crenshaw82]

One thing that really sucks about that post is that it heralded the domination of CG animation just like OTL. It's pretty depressing considering how beautiful Disney 2D animation is during the Renaissance, but I can see why it would be so popular. Hopefully Disney does not fully abandon 2D animation like it did in our timeline.

They did say that traditional animation would still be used on WED Signature films.

I'm hoping that it would be the case. I can see The Postman be very similar to Waterworld in terms of reception and box office.

But I thought the whole was to give Ted Turner an IP that could be exploited at a theme park. I really can't see that with The Postman.

Yup, ASOIAF is simply too long (7 books instead of a trilogy)

If he writes the series at the same rate as OTL then there are only five books currently.

I don't really understand why GRRM would even agree to a film deal by the late 90s when he hasn't even begun to do his 3rd book, assuming we're going by OTL release.

Honestly he may become so busy that he never starts the second book unless he concurrently writes it along side the first.

LOTR or Harry Potter is just much better suited for a movie series. Heck, even The Wheel of Time or His Dark Materials would work.

How about the Shannara series or the Amber series?

who wants to see Wild Cards on the Big Screen?

While I haven't read the series I do get the feeling that it would work better on the small screen on a premium cable channel like HBO or Showtime.

 

[Denliner]

They did say that traditional animation would still be used on WED Signature films.

But I'd like to see them do traditional animation for the mainline Walt Disney Studios films as well (like Tiana) since that fell flat OTL. We'll just have to see whether they will continue to do so or not.

But I thought the whole was to give Ted Turner an IP that could be exploited at a theme park. I really can't see that with The Postman.

I think Turner would be desperate enough to do a Waterworld attraction since Peach Grove lacks the appeal of the other three companies in terms of attractions. But I agree that the film probably wouldn't translate well into a theme park format, but it's something.

Honestly he may become so busy that he never starts the second book unless he concurrently writes it along side the first.

Yeah, that's another reason why I don't want something related to ASOIAF until the 2010s like OTL, to give GRRM a better chance of actually finishing the source material.

How about the Shannara series or the Amber series?

Those are probably fine for a movie series. Same with Narnia (I'm surprised Narnia wasn't even part of the equation).