Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

I'm sorry, but I'm really not sure what you're trying to say. That the US was less bad? In any case, this is not the place for such a discussion.
I think what I was trying to ask was what was life like under Soviet-backed regimes, as well as express my extreme disdain for Kissinger and his role (or at least my perception of it) in encouraging the U.S. to tolerate some of the worst leaders ever because "they're bastards, but they're our bastards". To be clear, no, the U.S. was not less bad*, and while I'm emotionally detached/disassociated from the shit U.S. imperialism has caused, I'm still ashamed of it.



*Meaningfully. Another person who made the analogy that U.S. imperialism being "better" is like saying that one parent only physically abused you, while the other physically and emotionally abused you. Which is technically better, but it's still fucking child abuse that's going to leave you emotionally and perhaps literally scarred for the rest of your life.

(Literally the only reason I have any patience for the numerous times people have discussed U.S. imperialism and its nature in this timeline is because the scale of human suffering associated means that a U.S. doing imperialism but also, like, building a couple hospitals or whatever does mean the negligible, drop-in-the-bucket difference means hundreds or thousands of people who now have an appreciable improvement. I think.)
 
I’m not sure if Red_Galiray has any plans for a women’s suffrage movement, but I’m honestly of the impression that women’s right to vote is much easier than one would think.

If you can get TTL’s drafters of the 14th and 15th amendments to use more ambiguous language, and get the Supreme Court stacked in the right way by the right people, the OTL Minor v. Happersett could go quite differently.

While there may be concerns of women’s suffrage being “too early” for the public to approve, such a turn of events wouldn’t be too dissimilar to Loving v. Virginia giving interracial couples the right to marry roughly 30 years before the majority approved of it.

As long as the opposition fails to secure a constitutional amendment nullifying the ruling (harder than one would expect) within around a decade, it could be accepted as reality until the next generation grows up not knowing a world in which it was forbidden.
 
I’m not sure if Red_Galiray has any plans for a women’s suffrage movement, but I’m honestly of the impression that women’s right to vote is much easier than one would think.

If you can get TTL’s drafters of the 14th and 15th amendments to use more ambiguous language, and get the Supreme Court stacked in the right way by the right people, the OTL Minor v. Happersett could go quite differently.

While there may be concerns of women’s suffrage being “too early” for the public to approve, such a turn of events wouldn’t be too dissimilar to Loving v. Virginia giving interracial couples the right to marry roughly 30 years before the majority approved of it.

As long as the opposition fails to secure a constitutional amendment nullifying the ruling (harder than one would expect) within around a decade, it could be accepted as reality until the next generation grows up not knowing a world in which it was forbidden.
As I’ve mentioned previously, southern whites have a very large incentive to push women’s suffrage as the civil war disproportionately killed southern white men compared to African American men and southern women. If women are allowed to vote, only around 2 states are majority black by eligible voters. If women aren’t allowed, I would imagine it is more like 5.
 
Huh, now that you say it, ITTL the example of "country destroying itself in a war" may be the Confederacy under the Junta instead of Lopez's Paraguay.
On that note, one could make an argument that the Confederacy would be viewed by "neutral" historians through the perspective of a country which personified the sunk cost fallacy, particulalry with the Junta's response to Breck deciding enough was enough was to coup and execute him.
Yeah, a more detailed jurisprudence and international treaties on civil wars would be an interesting development.
And having the Union treat Commerce Raider crews as pirates could lead to a situation in which TTL’s Hague Conventions view attacking merchant ships as a war crime (not that it matters much, but still).
 
On that note, one could make an argument that the Confederacy would be viewed by "neutral" historians through the perspective of a country which personified the sunk cost fallacy, particulalry with the Junta's response to Breck deciding enough was enough was to coup and execute him.

And having the Union treat Commerce Raider crews as pirates could lead to a situation in which TTL’s Hague Conventions view attacking merchant ships as a war crime (not that it matters much, but still).
Don't think they'd go that far, I mean trying to blockade and stop an enemy's naval commerce has literally been a part of naval warfare since the first sailor existed.
 
Don't think they'd go that far, I mean trying to blockade and stop an enemy's naval commerce has literally been a part of naval warfare since the first sailor existed.
Still, prosecutions of raider crews as pirates at the very least provide precedent for considering unprovoked attacks on merchant shipping (as opposed to "cruiser rules") as war crimes.
 
Still, prosecutions of raider crews as pirates at the very least provide precedent for considering unprovoked attacks on merchant shipping (as opposed to "cruiser rules") as war crimes.
I don't think they'd go that far still, especially since the Confederacy wasn't recognized as a legit nation by the US and was considered a rebellion. So the US trials of the raiders would be trying them as pirates because the US never considered them anything but as a US citizen. I don't think you'll be able to get banning of unprovoked attacks by merchants as a war crime from that.
 
Still, prosecutions of raider crews as pirates at the very least provide precedent for considering unprovoked attacks on merchant shipping (as opposed to "cruiser rules") as war crimes.
War crimes worked to somewhat lessen horrors of war because people deliberately largely went after only things that gave no, or very little, advantage as they knew full well that otherwise everyone would just ignore any relevant one the first moment it actually mattered. So it is hard to see this one even getting much discussion.
 
I just wonder if George could be the figure that unites all those opposed to the Republicans from a progressive angle into a new national coalition? The idea is very intriguing.
Well he's definately capabale of getting a national following, his main fault seems to be he didn't have an easy time playing nice with established politicians. Now the Democrats being basically out of the picture helps with this but he definately needs someone on his team who can do party building, a good Mark Hanna basically. He'd probably also need to get the Silverites/ bimetalism crowd on board. Also if the French do have an easier time establishing a Republic, they were pretty big on bimetalism and a more stable Third Republic could pull close to ITTL United States to be the major powers backing a bimetal standard.
 
@Red_Galiray What do you think ended up happening to David Rice Atchison ITTL?

From his Wikipedia page, in case you want to know what kind of man he was like:
It appeared as if the Kansas Territorial legislature to be elected in March 1855 would be controlled by free-soilers and ban slavery. This was viewed as a breach of faith by Atchison and his supporters. An angry Atchison called on pro-slavery Missourians to uphold slavery by force and "to kill every God-damned abolitionist in the district" if necessary.[18] He recruited an immense mob of heavily armed Missourians, the infamous "Border Ruffians". On the election day, March 30, 1855, Atchison led 5,000 Border Ruffians into Kansas. They seized control of all polling places at gunpoint, cast tens of thousands of fraudulent votes for pro-slavery candidates, and elected a pro-slavery legislature.[17]
 
On a less meme-y note, while I think that your stance is extremely reasonable, and I will profess I'm generally only passingly familiar with the """shenanigans""" the USA/CIA got up to in Latin America during the Cold War...weren't the communist regimes (e.g. Cuba) generally not exactly paragons of respecting human rights themselves? And otherwise basically just Soviet influence/imperialism?
What? I will reply to this after a few days when I refresh my memory (in another thread of course).
 
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I was wondering if the anti-anti-miscegenation laws of the New England states, such as Massachusetts, would have stayed in place with a more radical progressive national mood, or if they would have been repealed when white supremacy reasserted its hold over America in the proceeding decade of the nadir of race relation like in otl?
 
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I was wondering if the anti-anti-miscegenation laws of the New England states, such as Massachusetts, would have stayed in place with a more radical progressive national mood, or if they would have been repealed when white supremacy reasserted its hold over America in the proceeding decade of the nadir of race relation?
Why would white supremacy reassert its hold over America?
 
Why would white supremacy reassert its hold over America?
Oh, I'm sorry. I was just trying to draw a comparison between the US in this timeline and in the original timeline (OTL), where the US also experienced a period of transformation after a destructive war. However, over time, the nation returned to a more conservative and white supremacist direction. In this timeline, the Republican Reconstruction is much more radical and lasting, but this is still the US, not a Marxist state. So I think the pendulum theory will eventually apply and there will be some form of a conservative backlash, like in the 1970s. What I am wondering is whether anti-miscegenation laws would be part of that backlash. Capisce?
 
I was wondering if the anti-anti-miscegenation laws of the New England states, such as Massachusetts, would have stayed in place with a more radical progressive national mood, or if they would have been repealed when white supremacy reasserted its hold over America in the proceeding decade of the nadir of race relation like in otl?
Why would white supremacy reassert its hold over America?
Oh, I'm sorry. I was just trying to draw a comparison between the US in this timeline and in the original timeline (OTL), where the US also experienced a period of transformation after a destructive war. However, over time, the nation returned to a more conservative and white supremacist direction. In this timeline, the Republican Reconstruction is much more radical and lasting, but this is still the US, not a Marxist state. So I think the pendulum theory will eventually apply and there will be some form of a conservative backlash, like in the 1970s. What I am wondering is whether anti-miscegenation laws would be part of that backlash. Capisce?
I don’t think things will be easy for white supremacists in America ITTL, even after Reconstruction comes to an end…
 
It's named after the town of Atchison, Kansas, so at one remove from the man. Hope that helps.
I appreciate that attempt, but I already knew that it was one removed from him. I'd just never heard of him before, and really don't like him, and at least for the next few months I won't help but be reminded he exists whenever I think of the AT&SF (which, as a giant railroad nerd, is quite likely). It's only very minorly tained for me, thankfully, because I'm supremely confident it wasn't some "hidden statement" of whatever—for God's sake, one of the Class I railroads was literally "Southern Railway" and it's motto/catchphrase was "Southern serves the South," like if the AT&SF wanted to be more racist than usual, as far as railroads go (e.g. abide, however reluctantly, to Jim Crow laws and have segregated passenger seating (which I think goes to show that money almost always trumps prejudice, because even railroads based more in the (upper, at the very least) South, such as Norfolk & Western, while undoubtedly discriminatory, did not like having segregated passenger cars, because it was inefficient and wasted money—why have two half-full Pullman cars, one Black only and one White only, when you could have one full Pullman car?), and essentially only hire Black people as Pullman Porters, Pullman maids, Firemen, and the like—they could get respectable and well-paying jobs, but they couldn't get into positions of authority, such as being an engine Engineer, or management.

Admittedly, I'm pretty sure you could get a good job at the Pennsylvania Railroad Altoona works, where the PRR made its locomotives and rolling stock, as well as having highly respected laboratories as a highly skilled, middle-class worker as an African-American, but, outside of starting a business to cater to those workers, that was about as high as you could climb with the railroad. Not that I expect the reconstruction timeline to unduly focus on railroads, other than their importance and their extremely shitty behavior during this time period, but it would be really cool to see how this more radical Civil War and much more successful reconstruction changes that sort of thing, i.e. making it acceptable to not just have a few skilled Black workers, but having Black (design, not engine) engineers, managers, even company presidents and the like.), then they could've, and I think would've, been way more explicit about it.

[Edit:] Also, apparently, Topeka gets its name from the "Kansa-Osage" people's language, which means "The place we dig potatoes," and was founded (well, "laid out," which I take to mean as when a meaningful number of non-native people settled there) as one of the anti-slavery towns, so that does make me feel better and help balance it out.



Actually, I do wonder how this timeline will affect Pullmans—IIRC Pullman's first or second car was chosen to carry Lincoln's body on the funeral train (because it was, like, the nicest railroad car in North America), which played no small roll in him getting his big break, and for people to both want to be able to ride in a Pullman passenger car, and for railroads wanting to buy those cars to offer to passengers. Assuming that he still manages to get people to want to ride them and railroads to buy them, I also wonder how Pullman Porters will be affected. For us, they were synonymous with "African-American," and were, like a teaching job for African-American women, a highly valued job that was respected, respectable, paid well, and (I think) a job that suffered fewer indignities and insults than usual. Is that still the case here? After all, my understanding is that the main reason it was almost (if not actually entirely, not 100% sure there) entirely Black was because it was acceptable for Black people to have a job where they were subservient, even if they were dressed nicely and paid well and also got tips. This is just speculation on my part, but I also imagine that it would've rankcled a lot of white people to have a white Pullman Porter subservient to a Black passenger, either as another passenger, or as that white Pullman Porter.

Regardless, even if, for whatever reason, it's still a job extremely strongly associated with African Americans (The Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters is and always shall be the undisputed union GOAT), at least we won't ever have that practice of Pullman Porters being called "George." (Before sometime in the 20th century—somewhere between 1900 and 1920 or 25, I'm not really sure—Pullman Porters did not have name tags, and instead of, I dunno, fucking asking them for their name, the common practice was to refer to the Porter as "George," regardless of their name, short for "George Pullman's boy," which is a practice that can be easily and directly tied back to slavery. ANYWAY. Enough of me rambling about railroads, Pullman Porters,—although I'm hoping you're taking notes, Red_Galiray!—and the various other railroad-related things.
 
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Oh, I'm sorry. I was just trying to draw a comparison between the US in this timeline and in the original timeline (OTL), where the US also experienced a period of transformation after a destructive war. However, over time, the nation returned to a more conservative and white supremacist direction. In this timeline, the Republican Reconstruction is much more radical and lasting, but this is still the US, not a Marxist state. So I think the pendulum theory will eventually apply and there will be some form of a conservative backlash, like in the 1970s. What I am wondering is whether anti-miscegenation laws would be part of that backlash. Capisce?

Ehh...

I am a little bit more pessimistic. While I try to look for optimism and hope in America's dark periods, a LOT of American history shows that the government seemed to go out of its way to make Black Americans miserable.

From slavery, to sharecropping, to Jim Crow, to sundown towns, to racist housing and urban planning, to the drug war, to judicial inequities, the ghost of racism still lingers in America in a lot of ways.

I imagine ITTL there could be progress, but it could be very fragile.
 
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