SwampTiger
Banned
The Republicans are the Liberal Party ITTL. If it can incorporate a large minority of immigrants and working class voters, it will slide somewhat more Progressive earlier.
Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
It's a movement that IOTL gets going only in the 1930s, and even the early papal encyclical that begins to formulate a stance on industrial capitalism and the organised labour movement, Rerum Novarum, which formed the bedrock for the Catholic Workers Movement, was only published in 1891, but again, there's any number of soldiers or civilians who could be motivated by the devastation of this civil war into giving it an early start. Not to mention the effects of proslavery Christians being forced to confront the evil and the wrongness of white supremacy. Many will, like IOTL, retreat into revisionist history and conspiracy theories to protect their Antebellum worldview, and many more will spend the rest of their lives quietly while being unable to truly process that what they did was wrong, but at least a few, particularly the young, would be forced to go through a true spiritual crisis that might see them emerge on the other end as agents for a new Christian left in the South.
However, my knowledge on the movement itself is scant. I would recommend a start with the movement's Wikipedia page, the See Also section is certainly a rabbithole to fall down into.
I agree. I decided to make a quick and messy mockup of a version with Union Blue and Confederate Grey instead. @Red_Galiray what do you think?
I will say that the GOP is going to have some barriers to overcome if they want to gain a significant part of the Catholic vote. Its important to remember that former Know Nothings were a significant part of the GOP coalition (Grant's VP, I believe was originally a Know Nothing) and even more mainstream Republicans could evidence a strong anti-Catholic bias. Even Grant himself in a speech to veterans was known to take some cracks on what he felt was the power of the Catholic Church and how it needed to be curbed. And Catholics naturally recognized this, and equated Republicans with wild-eyed anti-clerical radicals in Europe - nor had they forgotten that lead Abolitionists had often attacks the Catholic Church time and time again (up to inciting riots against Catholic neighborhoods at times).
That being said, if Ireland come overcome that, than others could as well - but it's going to take some compromise on the part of the GOP and an active effort to court Catholic American voters. If you want to look into the topic more, I'd suggest McGreevy's Catholicism and American Freedom (2003). Its a really good intellectual history that charts the strange dance that American Catholics and Reformers engaged in during the 19th and 20th century - sometimes coming together as allies and other times viewing one another with suspicion (at best).
It's a movement that IOTL gets going only in the 1930s, and even the early papal encyclical that begins to formulate a stance on industrial capitalism and the organised labour movement, Rerum Novarum, which formed the bedrock for the Catholic Workers Movement, was only published in 1891, but again, there's any number of soldiers or civilians who could be motivated by the devastation of this civil war into giving it an early start. Not to mention the effects of proslavery Christians being forced to confront the evil and the wrongness of white supremacy. Many will, like IOTL, retreat into revisionist history and conspiracy theories to protect their Antebellum worldview, and many more will spend the rest of their lives quietly while being unable to truly process that what they did was wrong, but at least a few, particularly the young, would be forced to go through a true spiritual crisis that might see them emerge on the other end as agents for a new Christian left in the South.
However, my knowledge on the movement itself is scant. I would recommend a start with the movement's Wikipedia page, the See Also section is certainly a rabbithole to fall down into.
I agree. I decided to make a quick and messy mockup of a version with Union Blue and Confederate Grey instead. @Red_Galiray what do you think?
Maybe the lettering should still be red - to symbolize the Blood of the title.
Yah look better but I think I do full blue, then the lettering not dark red but not normal red somewhere inbetween
I don't like the Confederate grey. How about stripes of red, white, and blue?
I have made other versions of the cover based on the suggerences here.
I wasn't convinced by the red either to be honest.
Thanks. And yeah, when I finish this I will release an updated version in PDF.
One important factor is that having a large contingent of African American voters is also bound to drive the party and the nation to the left, since African Americans are poor agricultural workers.
Thanks, I'll take it into account. Also, thank you for your version of the cover.
Thank you for the suggerence. I'll see if I can get that book.
I tried it and it didn't look too good tbh.
I incorporated your suggerence. Thank you.
I wasn't convinced by the red either to be honest.
Thanks. And yeah, when I finish this I will release an updated version in PDF.
One important factor is that having a large contingent of African American voters is also bound to drive the party and the nation to the left, since African Americans are poor agricultural workers.
Thanks, I'll take it into account. Also, thank you for your version of the cover.
Thank you for the suggerence. I'll see if I can get that book.
I tried it and it didn't look too good tbh.
I incorporated your suggerence. Thank you.
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I like the gradient cover the most. The text is a bit pixelly but that should be an easy fix.
Also, and this may not work/may be a bit much, but how about some sort of blood splatter on/across the picture itself? since the red text doesn't work.
Also, and this may not work/may be a bit much, but how about some sort of blood splatter on/across the picture itself? since the red text doesn't work.
I'm obviously biased towards the second design. If I had to use meaning to back my case, a gradient implies the existence of a neutral position, a compromise between the Union and the Confederacy. Of course, the whole point of the TL is that there is no compromise, one will win and the other will lost, simple as that.
As for blood splatters, I think the sacrifice of symmetry wouldn't be worth it, though a red stripe in the second design, between the Union half and the Confederate half, could symbolise the bloodshed of when these two sides face each other
As for blood splatters, I think the sacrifice of symmetry wouldn't be worth it, though a red stripe in the second design, between the Union half and the Confederate half, could symbolise the bloodshed of when these two sides face each other
You've got a point about the symbolisim of the gradient there. Blue Gradient into Red into Grey could work? It would also have the benefit of the Seal being surrounded by red, which is its own symbolism right there.
The second one is good, although if going with that one I think adding in a red stripe would be detract more than it would add.
SwampTiger
Banned
I like the blue to gray gradient.
A variation with the Stars and Bars crumpled on the bottom may be appropriate
A variation with the Stars and Bars crumpled on the bottom may be appropriate
This seems like a little bit of a stretch. Are poor agricultural workers today socialists? No they aren't because they own their own land or materials and don't want to loose it. Maybe they might rally for redistribution of souther plantations or land to the west.
It really isn't. For the first thing, "today" there have been decades of anti-socialist effort on the part of the American government and American businesses, coupled with the failure of the Soviet Union, to discredit and drive away poor agricultural workers (i.e., migrant farm workers, in today's context) from socialism. Nevertheless, they or their children are not exactly liberals in the European sense; just look at César Chávez, the sugar workers unions of Hawai'i in the 1940s and 1950s, or Hispanic support for Bernie (acknowledging that most Hispanics aren't actually farmworkers) today.
Second, historically this type of small landowner has actually been a significant supporter of socialism in many countries. The key is that they have a sufficiently stable life to be able to look around and go "hey, why am I so much worse off than that guy?" IOTL, African Americans, especially in the south, were so suppressed by racism and segregation that they couldn't afford those kinds of thoughts; they were a distraction and a threat to their survival in the face of such facets of Southern society as lynchings. ITTL, supposing that the United States government actually can offer basic protection to all of its citizens, it is almost inevitable that more African Americans will feel confident enough to have such thoughts and to voice such thoughts, at least at times.
Third, there has often been a prominent, though not necessarily "low," element of African American society that is socialist. This was prominent in the 1920s and 1930s IOTL, and against later in the 1960s and 1970s (with the Black Panthers, for instance). This ties back into point number 2, which is that the elements that tended to be socialist were those that were secure enough that they could look around and imagine changing the system for the better instead of for the worse, and who had less immediate concerns than "stop lynching" or "get the vote". Again, supposing that the post-war leads to African Americans being more secure in their persons and not being afraid that any convulsion means someone gets hung from the nearest tree, there are almost automatically going to be more of these people who notice that the system sucks for them and who can imagine that changing it might actually make things better.
Fourth, even if African Americans aren't outright socialists, all @Red_Galiray actually said was that they would drive the party to the left. But the Republican Party was always quite liberal (in the European sense) IOTL, so moving towards the left doesn't even necessarily mean that they're all that far left, much less socialist. It just means that now there's an important voting bloc for them that has different voting priorities than propping up big business no matter the cost.
Wow things are getting even more interesting, the Union and Rebels are rapidly slipping into true war mode.
No rules and cloaks of civilised society are coming off. I guess it time to unleash the beast of humanity and let it have its fill of blood.
No rules and cloaks of civilised society are coming off. I guess it time to unleash the beast of humanity and let it have its fill of blood.
Clausewitz is groaning in his grave: "I warned them about this..."
As for the cover, the gradient and blue versions are superior.
Awesome TL, as before!
As for the cover, the gradient and blue versions are superior.
Awesome TL, as before!
I think blue to red gradient might be best, to convey the bloodshed, and decay from the pre-war peace (blue) to the gruesome bloodshed (the civil war)
