Oh yeah! I know about that book! Yeah it’s a bit of a weird book judging by the synopsis. I would like to read a more realistic take on a John Brown wins scenario though, good or bad.
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Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
Yeah, me too! I tried writing a "more successful John Brown" timeline myself, but I got bogged down trying to decide how I wanted the election of 1860 to go.
Imagine a John Brown presidency…You mean who John Brown beats to be president?
Well, not completely reverse since some Latin American countries would have seen coups and dictatorships too, but I did want a weaker US for the benefit of Latam.
I hate it when people act as if Lee had been a secret abolitionist.
The great irony with John Brown is that him succeeding probably irredeemably harms the abolitionist cause, since a successful slave revolt that sees White victims would probably only unite White Americans against the rebellious Black slaves, solidify racism, destroy sympathy for their plight, and convince even more people that slavery is necessary. His failure instead increased sympathy for the enslaved, distrust of the South, and hatred of the Slave Power. He was worth more as a martyr and a symbol, and this he himself recognized.
Yeah I can see that, with John Brown, as admittedly IMO as based as he was, was still crazy and a terrorist, so maybe it’s the best that he didn’t (unintentionally) make Northerners team up with the Southerners on the issue of slavery. Besides, it’s better if the bad guy attacks the good guy first instead of the other way around.
The Colonel Sanders Presidency TL (Kentucky Fried POlotics) and a couple others have elections modded in the New Campaign Trail Game, someone should do the 1864 Election from this TL there. It would make trying to get Landon to win in '36 seem easy.
Before I reply to any of these quotes I just want to tell Red, Bravo. Thank you for this work of art.
I truly cannot say that I have read many stories that have been this excellent and true to purpose.
Because the ideological range of all the candidates, ranging from consummate Radicals to embarrassed racial opportunists, in any other context would make for a fractious mess of a congress. But because Abe is still around, Seward, there remains direction and influence from the heights of the party to wrangle the junior congressman into a productive body.
Under another president, or even if some tragedy were to render Lincoln incapable of executing the office (while remaining alive) those knives are going to come out.
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the effective legitimization of political violence would have consequences down the line for labor struggles. But I think it would also be wise to remember, especially after a fratricidal Civil War, that the line between allies and enemies within the same party can be thin as well. I could see certain anti-corruption measures getting zealous in order to take advantage of ongoing scandals, rival cliques within the party.
And given the nature of the post-war political environment, the fault lines are going to shift. As much of a smear the obvious quasi-secesh/reconciliationist talking points were during the war, the people and the interests they represent that espoused them won't be going anywhere. And strange times making for even stranger bedfellows. The Ohio Model might find some traffic with the same people who becried Pendelton as out of touch. Yesterday's defeatist is tomorrow's pragmatist, so long as they can hold on in the meantime for the dust to clear.
If Lincoln's plans for tackling patronage and spoils go far enough, the Lincolnite center of the Republican Part will clip off its wings. Likely after his presidency, but still.
Staring at the fire place, thinking back to that speech where he yelled "Who am I Judas to?" and asking out loud in an empty room, "Can you hear me Red, did I play my part well? Is it over now? Can I rest?"
Thinking that he could have pushed harder or assumed control of the Susquehanna earlier that maybe some of the thousands of people could have been spared. You know, be consumed by the maybes of all his decisions. Because committing to a siege condemned the South to a long roast rather than a quick burn. It exposed to the countryside to a modern chevauchee. Scores of thousand of people dead for a "sound strategy".
A lot of death and a lot of pain happened, that didn't have to happen, but had to happen.
But I will say no more.
I truly cannot say that I have read many stories that have been this excellent and true to purpose.
It's heartening to see so much of the pain and effort have some sort of vindication. Even if it's rooted more in the follies of their enemies than in the full conversion of the people. It's still impressive and it's very good that Lincoln is alive to enjoy that landslide victory and the coattails it brings.
Because the ideological range of all the candidates, ranging from consummate Radicals to embarrassed racial opportunists, in any other context would make for a fractious mess of a congress. But because Abe is still around, Seward, there remains direction and influence from the heights of the party to wrangle the junior congressman into a productive body.
Under another president, or even if some tragedy were to render Lincoln incapable of executing the office (while remaining alive) those knives are going to come out.
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the effective legitimization of political violence would have consequences down the line for labor struggles. But I think it would also be wise to remember, especially after a fratricidal Civil War, that the line between allies and enemies within the same party can be thin as well. I could see certain anti-corruption measures getting zealous in order to take advantage of ongoing scandals, rival cliques within the party.
And given the nature of the post-war political environment, the fault lines are going to shift. As much of a smear the obvious quasi-secesh/reconciliationist talking points were during the war, the people and the interests they represent that espoused them won't be going anywhere. And strange times making for even stranger bedfellows. The Ohio Model might find some traffic with the same people who becried Pendelton as out of touch. Yesterday's defeatist is tomorrow's pragmatist, so long as they can hold on in the meantime for the dust to clear.
If Lincoln's plans for tackling patronage and spoils go far enough, the Lincolnite center of the Republican Part will clip off its wings. Likely after his presidency, but still.
I can see Johnson stewing away in his country home...
Staring at the fire place, thinking back to that speech where he yelled "Who am I Judas to?" and asking out loud in an empty room, "Can you hear me Red, did I play my part well? Is it over now? Can I rest?"
Oh I'm sharing them. This was a privilege to read, and I'm sorry to have taken so long to catch back up.
I wonder how Grant feels about everything that's happened in the South, especially with Sherman and so forth. OTL, the south had famine conditions and mass death, so it's not too different. But the added year, the fact that every overture he made to lessen the death didn't work, and then to finally have it all crumbling down in front of him. I can't help but imagine that Grant feels a great weight of responsibility for not ending the war sooner.
Thinking that he could have pushed harder or assumed control of the Susquehanna earlier that maybe some of the thousands of people could have been spared. You know, be consumed by the maybes of all his decisions. Because committing to a siege condemned the South to a long roast rather than a quick burn. It exposed to the countryside to a modern chevauchee. Scores of thousand of people dead for a "sound strategy".
Someone's been talking to their penpal.
I don't know if the phrasing was on purpose, but I do think it's interesting that he didn't say Federal Authority, Union Authority, but US authority. The conception of a unitary state is starting early.
Dear god.
I think there's more poetry in the simple words, it's more honest to what happened. God is necessary to soothe the conscience of White America, that what they undertook was right and worth it, but I think the sober, grounded, clear-sightedness of the Freedmen is a good contrast.
A lot of death and a lot of pain happened, that didn't have to happen, but had to happen.
I do think it's a bit humorous, and I don't fault the man for saying "my work is done", with an Amendment passed, and entire war over the issue, it's hardly premature. It's just that as one struggle withers away, its roots sprout anew, another fruit more bitter but all the same in shape.
I'm now reminded that you have made no promises about the reconstruction era, at least none that I can remember. So we're officially out of the foregone conclusion stage of the narrative.
I can say that I have always loved the political chapters. They're far more gripping, because the stakes are more human I think, so I'm very eager to see the new phase of the story.
Yes, and as you say later, it makes for a great twist. I do think it was a shame that Davis died the way he did, not that he didn't deserve it, but I'm surprised at how the Junta was able to keep order long enough to carry it out after executing Breckenridge where everyone could see.
But I will say no more.
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Lincolons plans to tackle Patronage and Spoils: Make it his own. The man was very much into both during his administration and I see no reason for him not to do it going forward.
Heh, that'd be great! To make it borderline playable, it should be that Johnson and Tilden both have the option to unify the Opposition behind them if they pick the right choices, but outright beating Lincoln would be very hard.
Really, really glad to have you back! I truly missed your comments! I hope you accompany us in the new thread and share your thoughts there as well
Oh, believe me, trying to wrangle the Republican majority is going to be a big plot point going forward. Especially because without the war and without a united opposition, too big factors that pushed Republicans together, getting them to agree is going to be hard. But fortunately in Lincoln we've got a very able politician.
Grant is bound to feel a degree of crushing guilt, as you note. Probably will wonder for the rest of his life whether he could have stopped the famine and the Jacquerie had he taken more decisive action before the winter set in.
It was intentional to have Thomas call it US authority! Wanted to emphasize that the US is becoming more centralized.
And yes, things are going to differ much more now. Prepare for a lot of political drama, so I'm glad you like those chapters!
Davis was actually executed just before Breckinridge. His fate was sealed - the Junta hated his guts, and as Breckinridge's closest and most loyal follower he had basically no way out.
Probably. Lincoln did make some comments about cleaning up corruption and grumbled about patronage, but he was ultimately a consummate politician who just has to know how useful patronage is for party-building.
hey @Red_Galiray decided to make some Confederate wikis (this is just the one I finished first) and thought they fit better here than in the Sequel
Once again if I got anything wrong I am happy to correct
Once again if I got anything wrong I am happy to correct
This for some reason reminded me of an ASB thread posted a while back about some tabloid website claiming the Confederates were close to making an atomic bomb and delivering it by cart to Washington, D.C. in August 1864. I wonder what a wikibox on such an event would look like. Really all that reminded me of that from your wikibox was the inclusion of the CSA and the date being close-ish in 1864.
Great stuff! I love the accuracy and detail to this Wikibox! ❤️👍
I will admit that I am surprised nobody mentioned the detail on the top after all what does the wiki says the coup was part of?
I did notice, but I didn't want to mention it because I've kind of made a mess of the names of TTL's Civil War. While I would like it to be known as the Slaveholders' Rebellion or something like that, within the text I've consistently called it the Civil War. And, given that that was the most common way to call the conflict IOTL too, from the very start, I think having the name stick would be unavoidable. My idea was that maybe the entire war is referred to as the Civil War, but the movement against Breckinridge which resulted in the coup and then the war continuing is called the Slaveholders' Rebellion. Likewise, an idea that I had was that the Stars and Bars would be associated with Breckinridge and his government, and the Battle Flag with the Junta.