Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
he said he would join Jefferson Davis's legal team in otl so I doubt he'd be up for it anyway
Yeah, something like that. It'd end up like
Civil Guard: Descendant of guerrillas and Union Leagues, they are basically a military police under Federal control. In the aftermath of the war they were used to fight terrorists and remaining guerrillas, with states forbidden from raising militias. They took over police duties for a time but as things calmed down they stepped back and became basically a form of the OTL National Guard. They are called in in case of grave internal disorder or are federalized in times of war.
National Guard: National police force, descendant of the Bureaus, and tasked with the enforcement of national laws. Under Federal control. During Reconstruction they are the main enforcers of Reconstruction laws, though they often need to call in the Civil Guard and, in extreme cases, the Army.
I was thinking of a more decentralized trial system, with most traitors judged by generals and Bureau agents on the field.Hamlin may be radical enough if they choose someone else as VP. Ben Butler was certainly a beast OTL.I don't think even the most radical is ready for Frederick Douglass being in charge of the trials, but it might be nice to see him appointed somewhere.
I know, I mentioned that in the update.
Wait, what? But well, that does sound likely. What I've hoped to impart in the TL is that Radicalism wasn't a vengeful movement, but rather an idealistic one. Their main concern was doing well to the freedmen, not punishing the traitors.
If I remember correctly Davis was basically held without trial for nearly 2 years and was at first held in isolation and was put in irons which were then riveted to him even after a doctor said that if it continued he could die. He was eventually bailed out by northers including a supporter of John Brown, Horace Greeley and Cornelius Vanderbilt.
Speaking of presidential deaths, the fact that Lincoln apparently survives to the end of his presidency ITTL means that the Curse of Tippecanoe has probably been butterflied away.
Not so - Lincoln resigns the Presidency just a week before his second term was going to end for ... reasons. The VP becomes President and is immediately gunned down five minutes later
Okay, seriously - yes, that particular legend is going to go the way of the dodo.
Thaddeus Stevens' motive for offering to join Jeff Davis' legal team was his hope that it would strengthen the theoretical basis of Radical Reconstruction. There was a battle over the legality of secession: Was secession always illegal or was it made illegal through the trial of battle? Salmon P. Chase was a proponent of the former and Stevens pushed for the latter interpretation. Stevens' reasoning was that in order to effect great changes in Reconstruction, the Federal Government needed virtually limitless power to remake laws and social institutions. Such power could be justified by the fact that the Southern states were no longer part of the Union and were now conquered states. By defending Jeff Davis, Stevens could prove the constitutionality of secession (before 1865) and that the CSA was now simply a conquered dominion. This conquest theory differed from Sumner's 'state suicide' because it presumed that secession was not illegal in 1861.
Stevens also argued that Davis should be tried under the laws of war by military commission, on the theory the United States was still at war, but that if Davis was to be tried at a civil court, it had to be done in accordance to civil law. Because the trial would have to be held where Davis had committed his crimes, Richmond, Confederate sympathizers could make their way into the jury and refuse to convict Davis. Several Republicans tried to pass laws so that they could engineer a civil jury that could guarantee the 'right' outcome for the Davis trial. Stevens was strongly against this, fearing that it could set a dangerous precedent.
This might being Britain and America closer together - the former halting slave trading on the seas, the latter attacking it on land.
You know, Downfall is one of my favorite movies. It's controversial with some because it humanizes Hitler. But I believe that's the whole point. Hitler was human, like any of us. The fact that terrible people who committed horrible acts were human, could laugh, love and feel just like us, renders their evilness all the more terrifying. Because that could be us too. Understanding what made people act a certain way is necessary to examine our own actions and prejudices, and be able to prevent us from sinking into those lows. The Confederate cause is irredeemable, it was guided by a disgusting and tragically misguided worldview. But they were human too, which makes it all the more tragic in my opinion. How could people who understood love and kindness when it came to White people deny it so cruelly when it came to Black people? We need to understand that humans are capable of such appalling beliefs that often translate into appalling actions, if we want such things to never happen again. That's why I have sought to not portray the rebels as inhuman monsters, but tragically flawed humans. In that vein, I offer you another war vignette, this time staring Breckinridge himself on a visit to wounded soldiers just outside of Richmond. I plan to soon write a similar one staring Lincoln. Let's not forget that historical figures are as flawed and as capable of evil as anyone else, as you and as me. The true test is whether we're able to rise above our very human prejudices and flaws to do the right thing, and to distinguish what's the right thing in the first place.
Such a desire to almost immediately leave the war behind was common among some Northerners, but they often confused being magnanimous with being naive, and enemies interpreted it all as weakness.
Maybe people will think that it only applied to Harrison.
Ah, that makes sense. Thank you for the explication! I doubt Jeff would have accepted his help then.
Side-story: "A Scene from Richmond"
A Scene from Richmond
President Breckinridge rode towards the house, accompanied by Secretary Davis. He was thin and haggard, but remained an erect, attractive figure on horseback. “President Breckinridge was the handsomest man I ever saw”, commented one of the ladies of the house, now serving as a nurse for the Confederate soldiers. Their house, located at the outskirts of the Confederate capital, had been turned into a makeshift hospital, and was now filled with wounded soldiers. The South had little in the way of medical supplies due to the blockade imposed by the Philadelphia Tyrant, but the soldiers were in good cheer. They had just turned away the invader again, and Lincoln’s defeat and with it their independence seemed closer now. That’s when the President himself appeared, and pain and sadness evaporated in favor of celebration and jubilee. One soldier even seemed to forget his wounded leg and jumped to his feet to holler a “hurrah for Johnny Breck!”
Breckinridge took his hat off and saluted his troops. “My brave boys!,” he said, “I’ve come to thank you for your patriotism and bravery. It is to you that the Confederacy owes the confident hope in victory that will impel us to a glorious place among the independent nations of the world.” Breckinridge waited a few moments while the resounding cheers that had started in response quieted down, and then continued. “The thanks of the Chief Executive of the Confederacy pale in comparison to the gratitude your immortal courage has entitled you to, but I hope you will find in them a bereavement for your pain. Rest, my brave boys, you have done enough.” But the soldiers would have none of it. “No, Father John!” they cried, “there’s still fight in us!” Breckinridge just smiled, and then got off his horse and went into the house to give a more personal thanks to the ailing troops.
Miss Elizabeth Hopkins, the young lady who was struck by the President’s handsome appearance, would never forget Breckinridge’s tender concern for the troops. “The President was the noblest, most generous person in the continent,” she wrote later with absolute certainty of the truth of her words. “He loved us and cared for us like a father, and we could do no less than love him fully in return,” commented a soldier for his part. No matter how tired he was, Breckinridge devoted a few minutes to every soldier, asking about their families, hearing their tales, and trying to do all he could to lighten their sorrows. A Kentucky soldier, who had rallied to a Kentucky pro-secession militia and then became part of the ”Orphan Brigade”, was flabbergasted when the President didn’t just remember him from those months trying to get Kentucky to secede, but recalled his name.
During the visit the Secretary of War, Jefferson Davis, too chatted with the soldiers. Despite his role as an officer working mostly behind the scenes, the soldiers and the people knew him as one of the cornerstones of the Breckinridge regime. In contrast to the beloved Breckinridge, Davis was never truly loved by the people of the Confederacy. “That lay largely in the nature of the man,” explains William C. Davis, “for not knowing how to inspire popularity, he never courted it, instead disdaining such pandering to the masses as beneath his dignity.” Yet, Davis’ commitment to the cause and his loyalty to Breckinridge inspired admiration in many Confederates. As the Secretary of War he was a visible leader, his patriotism and sheer determination inspiring to the troops. And so, even if the cheers for Jeff Davis weren’t as loud, they were just as sincere.
After the President retired from the house and mounted his horse, he and the Secretary rode around. A resident who observed the scene would never forget “the graceful forms and dignified countenances of the two horsemen riding side by side.” It was in those quiet moments on horseback that Davis showed his softer side, a side that could be gentlemanly and even charming. Davis was never a good bureaucrat, his temper irritable, his personality aloof, his demeanor cold. This was often contrasted negatively to Breckinridge’s easy charm and grace. But on the saddle Davis always seemed to recover his spirits, and he and Breckinridge talked freely of literature, horses, horticulture, and wildlife. Whatever the differences between the two men, they had grown to trust and respect each other. According to Varina Davis, she never saw her husband in happier moods than when he was able to forget the war and just enjoy a chat on horseback with Breckinridge.
The two men then stopped in front of a small house. Despite the sorry state of the building, the owner too had accepted wounded soldiers and was doing her best to tend to them. Other soldiers were around, eating their meager supplies of parched green corn. The soldiers let out a cheer to their two leaders, who acknowledged them with a wave of their hats. The President then descended from his horse and offered a gentlemanly greeting to the lady of the house, who, obviously exhausted, was nonetheless still sewing socks at the same time as she bounced a baby on her knee. When she saw Breckinridge, she stopped her work and held up her infant. “He is named for you”, she said. A touched Breckinridge then took a handful of coins from his pocket and offered them to the woman. “Oh, I couldn’t!”, she begged off, but the Chief Executive insisted, exclaiming that he didn’t need the money and that “seeing any of my people suffering pains me more than a stab or a shot could”. John Breckinridge Stokes would die a year later, in May 1865, during the post-war famine.
Walking to the backyard, the President saw two young boys playing marbles. Someone then suggested that they should join in the game. “At once the president and the secretary of war were on their knees,” William C. Davis tells, “marbles in hand, spending an hour at a spirited contest amid peals of laughter.” It was clear that in that moment, even if for a little while, Breckinridge and Davis had been able to forget their cares and sorrows, leaving aside their seriousness and dignity. Perhaps, as they played a game they surely enjoyed during their own boyhoods, they remembered better and easier times. After the game concluded, the President sat down, leaning against a tree. Davis and the soldiers quickly surrounded him, and Breckinridge took out his lunch, some biscuits, and shared them with the men. He then started to recount some stories. The two young boys soon crawled into his lap, and Breckinridge remained with them for a couple more hours before duty recalled him to Richmond. When Mary Breckinridge saw her husband, she thought he was the happiest he’d been in a long time, but there was an unmistakable note of sadness underneath his smile. “It’s as if Mr. Breckinridge thought that this could not last,” she mused, “as if we’re approaching the end.”
Huh, I expected the war would continue on for longer past its OTL date, given the hints of how the south would not surrender quietly. Perhaps the 'official' end of the war is with Lee surrendering similar to OTL, but unlike OTL a lot of generals do not surrender immediately and as such large scale fighting and destruction continue for a long time after the nominal onset of 'peace'?
I think that applies to many other places in history as well. The turkish soldier that participated in ethnic cleansing of Non-turks, the japanese soldier that massacred entire villages, and British soldiers who committed multiple atrocities in India were most likely decent people that gave out candy to the neighborhood back home. It's probably more darker to realize people can fall into truly dark depths and how they could do atrocities without being diagnosed sociopaths.
Great side story though of course I’m sure the enslaved population would have a different opinion on the president and the war. Though since they are not seen as human their opinions don’t count
I remember reading that, during the Nuremberg trials, the vast majority of the Nazis in the dock were found to be psychologically normal.
True enough. Then again if Stevens did join the legal defense, I doubt he would've been very happy about the defense's strategy. Charles O’Conor, perhaps the top lawyer in America at the time, served as the lead attorney on Davis' defense. O'Conor's strategy was a high-stakes game of chicken. Although Jeff Davis did flirt with martyrdom, he was actually a nervous wreck about the whole thing. Davis recognized that the happening of the trial was a lose-lose situation. If secession was constitutional, Davis wouldn't be charged with treason but it would further the Radical Republican agenda (although there are other charges he could be indicted with and other reasons for charging Davis with treason). If secession wasn't constitutional from the beginning, then Davis would get charged with treason and could be executed.
So O'Conor's strategy was to bluff the prosecution: if the trial happened and O'Conor succeeded in defending secession, it had the potential to shatter the fragile postwar settlement achieved at Appomattox. The prosecution had more to lose by letting the trial happen and O'Conor knew it, spending years putting up a brave facade. Given what a clown show the trial became, it may be best to just let Breckinridge and Davis flee and argue about the constitutionality of secession at a less stressful environment.
That was a well-written vignette. The idea of otherwise normal people doing evil onto others because of their beliefs, no matter how flimsy and unsubstantiated they are, is one that stuck with me after I interviewed a veteran of my country's war of independence for an elementary school project. The old man was a neighbor of my grandfather and was happy to help a dumb kid like me learn how to ride a bike. Imagine my shock when the old veteran was rather eager to justify how he helped round up collaborators and traitors to be made an example of because ethnicity X were somehow all genetically two-faced sons-of-bitches and ethnicity Y were mad cultists who needed to be culled. Said ethnic groups were arguably the backbone of the resistance army but the old man just pulled out centuries-old grudges, incidents and anecdotes as proof of their 'failings'. At the time, that veteran must have been 16.
Of course, I had to omit it for my school project, but it really stuck with me how cruel others can be for arbitrary beliefs.
Speaking of Downfall, I imagined that ITTL there might be a Downfall-style film for Breckinridge. Starting in 1861, with the contrast of the brutality and squalor of the plantations to the riches and splendor of Richmond and speeches by White Southerners about their 'noble' cause and the 'righteousness' of their society before flashing forward to the final days of the Confederacy, with the plantations abandoned or occupied by freedmen and Richmond starving and packed with refugees from Northern Virginia and Maryland. The humanity of Southerners is shown through the magnanimity of their leaders, the camaraderie between comrades and compassion of civilians in trying times, which makes their prolonged resistance and support for an evil and now dying cause stupid and frustrating.
Hey, there's even a substitute for the scenes of Hitler Youth child soldiers with the junior reserves, 14-18 year old conscripts. IIRC these junior reserves saw action at Griswoldville, during the March to the Sea, a decidedly one-sided massacre. Sherman's troops were horrified at the realization they had killed "old grey-haired and weakly looking men and little boys." One even noted "a boy with a broken arm and leg—just a boy 14 years old; and beside him, cold in death, lay his Father, two brothers, and an Uncle."
As for the Steiner counterattack equivalent... well, there's always a chance for Joseph Johnston to frustrate Breckinridge.
Ass. Sec. of War James Seddon: Mr President... General Johnston...
Sec. of War Jeff Davis: General Johnston said that he did not have the strength. Atlanta, Savannah and Mobile have been abandoned and he is retreating to Key West, Florida.
Breckinridge: [rant begins]
red did you have to do that?
anyways great chapter bur someone kept chopping onions while I was reading
"sniffs"
Breckenridge was quite young, comma only in his early forties. So, While I seemed to recall hints that he would not be present at the end, I doubt that he would die of natural causes. Still his administration administration is very stressful for him, as this shows, and I wonder How much of an effect It will have on him when so many start dying.
As for the baby's death, it is sad but I am comforted by Jesus' promised that the spirits of little ones always see the father's face. Of course, assuring myself that such characters are not suffering anymore and celebrating in heaven shows how much your writing means. You write great characters.
A further thought on the previous update since I am home. Meade is remembered only for the victory Gettysburg but not for much else. Reynolds will go down, I believe, in a much more positive way. He didn't finish the job but he definitely was very brave and I think many will feel that he could have brought the Union to victory eventually. However, they might see that Grant is more efficient at it. I suspect the main argument among alternate historians in this time line will be whether the war would have lasted longer with Reynolds in the East. After all, Grant was having much success in the west and the main problem was that he was slowed by the need to guard against vigilantes. Just as he consistently learned and improved after Corinth and then Vicksburg, it may be said that he would have grabbed Mobile faster aster and thus put more pressure on the Eastern front even though Reynolds might have been slower fighting Lee or whomever.
As for the baby's death, it is sad but I am comforted by Jesus' promised that the spirits of little ones always see the father's face. Of course, assuring myself that such characters are not suffering anymore and celebrating in heaven shows how much your writing means. You write great characters.
A further thought on the previous update since I am home. Meade is remembered only for the victory Gettysburg but not for much else. Reynolds will go down, I believe, in a much more positive way. He didn't finish the job but he definitely was very brave and I think many will feel that he could have brought the Union to victory eventually. However, they might see that Grant is more efficient at it. I suspect the main argument among alternate historians in this time line will be whether the war would have lasted longer with Reynolds in the East. After all, Grant was having much success in the west and the main problem was that he was slowed by the need to guard against vigilantes. Just as he consistently learned and improved after Corinth and then Vicksburg, it may be said that he would have grabbed Mobile faster aster and thus put more pressure on the Eastern front even though Reynolds might have been slower fighting Lee or whomever.
This does back to a previous post of mine - the cat is out of the bag when it comes to attempted political assassinations now. I wouldn't be entirely shocked to see Johnny Breck going down to an assassin's bullet in the closing day of the war - though whether its a dissillusioned Confederate who does it, a Union partisan or even himself, I cannot say.
Famine in the US? I assume its mostly concentrated in the Deep South. Makes me wonder if the Black Belt is larger due to the change in demographics