Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
Caught up to the timeline, must say it's good. My question is the fate of the immigrants, from the people who already arrived (Germans and Irish mentioned, but Chinese not, probably because they are out west), and the ones that will arrive later (more of the aforementioned, Italians, Mexicans, Polish, Jews, Japanese, etc). They probably will probably face nativist backlash like otl, but will the South's historic nativism and hostility towards immigrants be curved enough to allow more people to move in there?
Not sure if South will necessarily need immigration from outside the US, as it has a large rural population (black and white) ready to move to urban areas when industrialization begins and agricultural practices advance. With more industrialization in the South and no violent suppression of Reconstruction, most of the Black population that traveled to Northern cities during the Great Migration will instead probably stay put. Maybe this results in even more European immigration to the North and an even larger Nativist backlash in that region?
IIRC, the party system is going to be one between moderate and radical republicans.
Don't forget that this is the United States. The Know-nothing's have to go somewhere.
Or something similar could happen with Hispanic and Asian immigration out west?
There might be a chance the Know-Nothing types still turn to the former planter types and klan-like organizations like otl.
That's a possibility too. Another one I've seen it's Nappy III dying earlier, his successor being supposedly more competent than him. I don't know if there would be any logical link between the TL and him dying though.
Foreign adventurers like him are exactly what I'm looking for, thank you. Even a little change could result in a very different result.
Maybe, but the lesson many Americans drew from the Commune wasn't that lack of opportunities could result in revolution, but that a proletariat would always, unless held back by force, raise in revolution. They knew the US already had a proletariat - their denial wasn't over its existence, but over what caused it to exist, whether it was economic facts or their moral defects. They chose the second one.
There are many constituencies that will never go Republican, be it Radical or Moderate, and that are basically politically inactive as a result. One example are New York's Irish, who hate the Republicans and won't work with them, no matter Seward and Weed's friendly overtures. Since Tammany Hall and the New York Democrats/Chesnuts are basically extinct, their cause discredited and their prominent leaders exiled or jailed (Tilden is basically the only one left), they have no program to vote for or party to work for. Ultimately, all these constituencies are bound to be absorbed into a new party that will reflect conservative tendencies in both North and South, but during the war and its immediate aftermath they are a non-issue.
The South, even the post-war one, wasn't as virulently nativist as might be expected. Some Southerners even actively tried to attract immigrants - though as replacements for Black labor and meaning to treat them as slaves, a proposition that, you can imagine, was not agreeable to the immigrants themselves. I ultimately think it's more a question of economy than anything, and since the South will be more developed earlier than OTL, they are bound to come.
For now, yes. I foresee that the great and definitive split will be about labor. That one will follow, up to a certain point, the radical and moderate wartime division, since many Radicals are bound to conclude that the next great battle should be one against wage slavery. But it'll be a complete realignment too. Most of that it's for the second part of the TL, however.
In my estimation, Know-nothingism was a slightly artificial ideology, that sought to change the sectional slavery question with a national immigrant question. It reflected very real nativist feelings, but it wasn't as deep a split in society as many thought it was. Particularly telling is that the Know-Nothings tried to avoid talking about slavery at all and that Northern and Southern Know-Nothings couldn't agree due to, you guessed it, slavery.
Unsure when Red can post again - I'd be much less thorough but glad to keep it going if he can't 
- but fiinding stuff on family history through photos and online research at the library netted some more cool things. So, I have some people from my great-grandma's mom's side - this is a few years before her mom was born - who can give us a nice, small story to insert. Note: OTL my great-grandmas mom's dad's mom died in August, 1863. I don't know when Red has the4 setback he planned happening, but there's wiggle room ont he dates TTL, as there is on her mom's dad's brother's first wife and the date of her death, which I don't know. I'm glad I can get this much through the library's online ancestry .com account...
"John and his wife, Susan (Susannah to her close friends) walked slowly fromt he graveside. They waited patiently with Kathrine, who was keeping the little ones occupied - their own Mary and Hester and his brother Joseph's.
"She lived a full life," Katherine said solemnly as she ganced away from the small children chasing each other around in the field next tot he cemetery.
"That she did. It's a pity she didn't live to see..." John didn't know how to describe it.
"Some say 'our nation whole again' - but that would be acknowledging they are separated right now,' Katherine said.
John nodded. He turned to see his oldest brother Samuel patted Joseph on the shoulder and walking away, back toward them. "How is he, Samuel?"
"Fine. I suppose. I just hope..." he was at a loss for words.
"I'm sure we'll recover from this. It's not as dire as it was before Union Mills. We have other great commanders," John said. "One of my farmhands volunteered himself early on and came home, injured."
Samuel nodded. "I know. It's nice he has you to help with his family. I was really thinking more about... well..." He glanced back at Joseph.
Susan seemed to know what he was thinking. "I know when I spoke to your late wife, she would always rave about how wonderful it was that her sister and Joseph were in love, too."
"Yes. A marriage which was long enough to produce children; unlike ours. I've told you I met someone; Lydia is here name," he said abruptly.
"You went off to war, I suspect, partly because of your loss," Susan suggested.
"Well, I was drafted, actually. But, I had been pondering it. I'm looking at taking a merchant's position down in Franklin County; LYdia would gow ith me," Samuel admitted. "Yet I really want to see..."
Joseph returned from the graveside. Several others asked if he'd said his goodbyes to their mother, Mary.
"I did. I know we'll see her again. I thought a little about the war while I was there. The crushing defeats, followed by huge victories. The incredible back and forth tug-of-war which is happening with this country, going toward freedom, and then back toward the evils of slavery. Yes, I thought about al of that."
Samuel looked a little disappointed, but he got a grin on his face, a look of hope, toward the end.
"I thought about how President LIncoln had vetoed what seemed like a perfectly good planto bring the rebels back in; I couldn't understand it. But, maybe it's part of that endless tug of war; maybe the Lord allowed it so that we could get something better, something that would allow us to finally defeat this attitude where some think they can just run roughshod over others like the rebels have been over the black men. And then, I thought of our own lives - and, how thigns have been sicne my Cathy died early this year."
He walked up to Katherine, lovingly tuook her hands in his, and smiled.
"My siblings tease me because your name is so similar to my Cathy's. You helped out with the little ones since you came to live with us once Cathy was pregnant with ehr second, in your middle teens. I've seen how wonderful you are with the children. Now, please don't think this is a proposal or anything yet. But, I wondered if I could really love again afterward. I've just accepted that you're there to help them and be the woman they need int heir lives, and I've sort of let things go otherwise.
"But, thinking down there at my mom's graveside, and realizing what I said about that give and take, and how God brings things into peoples' lives in this sin-stained world not just to draw us closer to HIm and to trusting HIm as Saviour, but so they can learn something, or so they can get through things they might otherwise be able to... well, I've come to realize something. I love you with all my heart."
"I love you, too," Katherine said, seemingly hoping the day would come when she heard tht from him.
John patted Joseph on the shoulder after a moment, as did Samuel, who said he had been hoping for that.
"That's right," John said. "We have some awful things going on becasue of people who put their own selfish interests ahead of their duty to others. But, we will be one nation again; I think the president is committed to making sure that country is committed todoing what's right. Who knows if the Lord put it into his heart to do that just so we'd get something better, knowing it wasn't good enough."
"I suppose so. You're right; as much trouble as we've seen, I know we can get through it. As a family, and as a country," Joseph said.
--------------
Note: I don't know if this is how it happened OTL. I do know this about John (my ancestor) and his older siblings:
1. 2 of them did marry young ladies who were sisters.
2. Samuel's wife did die early, while Joseph at least had several children with his wife. (There are a few other siblings, too, of John's.)
3. Samel had been drafted, as per the Civil War registry note I found via the library's online subscription to ancestry.com, and bck home by July 1, 1863 when a registry of all males at that time was made.
4. Samuel remarried in early 1864, while Joseph - lost his wife in 1863 - remarried in early 1865 and had several children with his 2nd wife, also.
Whether that 2nd wife was someone he knew beforehand, I don't know, but someone had to be helping take care of the kids, and this seems very plausible. Plus, it just makes a cool story with the backdrop of the war and the desire to be one nation again, just like Joseph's desire for a wife again.
- but fiinding stuff on family history through photos and online research at the library netted some more cool things. So, I have some people from my great-grandma's mom's side - this is a few years before her mom was born - who can give us a nice, small story to insert. Note: OTL my great-grandmas mom's dad's mom died in August, 1863. I don't know when Red has the4 setback he planned happening, but there's wiggle room ont he dates TTL, as there is on her mom's dad's brother's first wife and the date of her death, which I don't know. I'm glad I can get this much through the library's online ancestry .com account..."John and his wife, Susan (Susannah to her close friends) walked slowly fromt he graveside. They waited patiently with Kathrine, who was keeping the little ones occupied - their own Mary and Hester and his brother Joseph's.
"She lived a full life," Katherine said solemnly as she ganced away from the small children chasing each other around in the field next tot he cemetery.
"That she did. It's a pity she didn't live to see..." John didn't know how to describe it.
"Some say 'our nation whole again' - but that would be acknowledging they are separated right now,' Katherine said.
John nodded. He turned to see his oldest brother Samuel patted Joseph on the shoulder and walking away, back toward them. "How is he, Samuel?"
"Fine. I suppose. I just hope..." he was at a loss for words.
"I'm sure we'll recover from this. It's not as dire as it was before Union Mills. We have other great commanders," John said. "One of my farmhands volunteered himself early on and came home, injured."
Samuel nodded. "I know. It's nice he has you to help with his family. I was really thinking more about... well..." He glanced back at Joseph.
Susan seemed to know what he was thinking. "I know when I spoke to your late wife, she would always rave about how wonderful it was that her sister and Joseph were in love, too."
"Yes. A marriage which was long enough to produce children; unlike ours. I've told you I met someone; Lydia is here name," he said abruptly.
"You went off to war, I suspect, partly because of your loss," Susan suggested.
"Well, I was drafted, actually. But, I had been pondering it. I'm looking at taking a merchant's position down in Franklin County; LYdia would gow ith me," Samuel admitted. "Yet I really want to see..."
Joseph returned from the graveside. Several others asked if he'd said his goodbyes to their mother, Mary.
"I did. I know we'll see her again. I thought a little about the war while I was there. The crushing defeats, followed by huge victories. The incredible back and forth tug-of-war which is happening with this country, going toward freedom, and then back toward the evils of slavery. Yes, I thought about al of that."
Samuel looked a little disappointed, but he got a grin on his face, a look of hope, toward the end.
"I thought about how President LIncoln had vetoed what seemed like a perfectly good planto bring the rebels back in; I couldn't understand it. But, maybe it's part of that endless tug of war; maybe the Lord allowed it so that we could get something better, something that would allow us to finally defeat this attitude where some think they can just run roughshod over others like the rebels have been over the black men. And then, I thought of our own lives - and, how thigns have been sicne my Cathy died early this year."
He walked up to Katherine, lovingly tuook her hands in his, and smiled.
"My siblings tease me because your name is so similar to my Cathy's. You helped out with the little ones since you came to live with us once Cathy was pregnant with ehr second, in your middle teens. I've seen how wonderful you are with the children. Now, please don't think this is a proposal or anything yet. But, I wondered if I could really love again afterward. I've just accepted that you're there to help them and be the woman they need int heir lives, and I've sort of let things go otherwise.
"But, thinking down there at my mom's graveside, and realizing what I said about that give and take, and how God brings things into peoples' lives in this sin-stained world not just to draw us closer to HIm and to trusting HIm as Saviour, but so they can learn something, or so they can get through things they might otherwise be able to... well, I've come to realize something. I love you with all my heart."
"I love you, too," Katherine said, seemingly hoping the day would come when she heard tht from him.
John patted Joseph on the shoulder after a moment, as did Samuel, who said he had been hoping for that.
"That's right," John said. "We have some awful things going on becasue of people who put their own selfish interests ahead of their duty to others. But, we will be one nation again; I think the president is committed to making sure that country is committed todoing what's right. Who knows if the Lord put it into his heart to do that just so we'd get something better, knowing it wasn't good enough."
"I suppose so. You're right; as much trouble as we've seen, I know we can get through it. As a family, and as a country," Joseph said.
--------------
Note: I don't know if this is how it happened OTL. I do know this about John (my ancestor) and his older siblings:
1. 2 of them did marry young ladies who were sisters.
2. Samuel's wife did die early, while Joseph at least had several children with his wife. (There are a few other siblings, too, of John's.)
3. Samel had been drafted, as per the Civil War registry note I found via the library's online subscription to ancestry.com, and bck home by July 1, 1863 when a registry of all males at that time was made.
4. Samuel remarried in early 1864, while Joseph - lost his wife in 1863 - remarried in early 1865 and had several children with his 2nd wife, also.
Whether that 2nd wife was someone he knew beforehand, I don't know, but someone had to be helping take care of the kids, and this seems very plausible. Plus, it just makes a cool story with the backdrop of the war and the desire to be one nation again, just like Joseph's desire for a wife again.
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I thank you for the offer, but there's no need. I already said that it'll take a while, because my real life commitments come first (as they should), but I'm still decided to finish the TL, no matter what. It's my project, so I simply wouldn't feel right turning it to anyone else. I did enjoy what you wrote a lot though, keep it coming1Unsure when Red can post again - I'd be much less thorough but glad to keep it going if he can't
A toast to our heroes!
(I swear the TL isn't dead guys but real life has to take precedence).
If the one in the centre is McClellan? IIRC he also helped save the union. Just with army logistics and not actual battles, which he was not great at.
A toast to our heroes!
(I swear the TL isn't dead guys but real life has to take precedence).
Nah, since he fought primarily for the Confederacy during the Civil War, so he did nothing of note, either positive or negative for the Union. The same cannot be said for McClellan.
The bottom left is Robert Gould Shaw.
I mean... I kinda disagree? While McClellan does deserve credit for training and organizing the Army of the Potomac, I really hesitate to say that his talents were unique. After all, McClellan didn't train and organize the Armies of the Tennessee and the Cumberland and those western armies made the most amount of progress for the Union in the war. Furthermore, McClellan kinda crippled the Union cavalry in the Eastern Theater by parceling out the volunteer cavalry regiments as guides and couriers. Of all people, John Pope, the much derided braggart who got smashed at Second Bull Run, did a better job of using the Union cavalry force by actually creating functioning cavalry brigades. It should also be noted that the success of Hooker's reforms in enhancing the efficiency of the Army of the Potomac suggests that McClellan's organization wasn't perfect to begin with.
A toast to our heroes!
(I swear the TL isn't dead guys but real life has to take precedence).
M'Clellan is our man
M'Clellan is our man
We'll show our deeds
Where'er he leads
M'Clellan is our man!
And because I know all of y'all will want to sing it at home, in the car, spontaneously on Zoom meetings:
