Is it possible to see Cortes in command of a second expedition?Would be fun to see the old man at it again.
The Sons of Inti Shall Not Perish
- Thread starter King of the Uzbeks
- Start date
Woot a surviving Inca TL!
Assuming they can hold out against the reinforcements, they might just be able to modernize fast enough to make life a living hell for the Spaniards who try to take the whole of the Empire. Though the coasts are pretty much doomed, the Inca's lack of a real naval tradition or natural defenses on the coast mean they can't hold it if the Spanish try to take it.
Assuming they can hold out against the reinforcements, they might just be able to modernize fast enough to make life a living hell for the Spaniards who try to take the whole of the Empire. Though the coasts are pretty much doomed, the Inca's lack of a real naval tradition or natural defenses on the coast mean they can't hold it if the Spanish try to take it.
I don't see how they couldn't hold the coast.I think it's the other way around.If the Spanish can somehow take the coast with their small numbers,can they actually hold it despite constant attacks?
^This. The Inca are now fully aware of Spanish capabilities and will be more than ready to meet them. The Spanish hold no hope of conquering large stretches of land now.
No mention of cannons and paper? I was under the impression that it was the Spaniard's cannons that awed the Inca the most. Paper being overlooked for now makes sense though; the Inca traditionally did not immediately understand its utility when presented with a bible after all, and isn't something that's immediately useful towards their survival.
What are the chances of preemptive campaigns into more of the Colombian Andes by the Inca?
Assuming they have a flotilla parked right off the coast, then they can hold it easily using cannons to bombard any army foolish enough to come into range. Though on the other hand, gorilla warfare would render such a tactic worthless.
This is the 1500s.Artillery's still ridiculously short ranged and inaccurate.A flotilla of ships is not going to be able to defend the entire Incan coast.You are also assuming that the Incans won't get their own artillery in time.Another thing is that the Spanish will have trouble getting to the Peruvian coast.They will have to rely heavily on ships operating out of the Mexican Pacific Coast.Most Spanish ships will be concentrated in the Atlantic fending off pirates later on.Another problem is that the Spanish simpy wouldn't be able to get enough ground forces.Most of the Spanish colonial armies during this period number 2000ish at most.Most of these troops were glory seekers(a.k.a conquistadors) who are only doing what they are doing because of potential wealth in loot and land.They are not going to get much of that if they are consistently repulsed by the much larger Incan armies.In fact,the chance of getting killed is now much higher than getting money and land.This means that not a lot of people will volunteer for this kind of venture and therefore the chance of getting much Spanish troops to attack the Incans is in doubt.The most they can do is go viking on the Incan coast.
Why would they spend so much to transport, support, equip, and resupply the huge fleet required to do so for decades, when Spain is about to jump into war with England in relatively short time. With no escapees from Pizzaro's expidition, all the Spaniards would think of the inca would be primitive tribes.
...?
The Spanish don't have that kind of power projection yet, nor the resources to dedicate to such a useless endeavor. Once it becomes clear that they can't loot the Inca they'll back off and try to trade. In all likelihood, with little success.
Alright, I'm convinced that Spain wouldn't bother taking the coast for long, at best they'd hold it as a beachhead to assault the Inca, but once they realize they aren't succeeding they might give up. The reason I thought they'd keep it up is since they never really stopped in OTL until the whole of Central America and most of Southern America was under their control.
Not to keep on questioning you here, but how exactly would they hold the coast from the Inca for longer than a few months? The best they could hope for would be a Morocco-like situation where they hold a few key coastal forts but are unable to push into the hinterland, except this hinterland is even more hostile to the Spanish in terms of terrain, plus a supply line many, many times larger than the one from Cadiz or Almeira to Melilla. Plus the big question of, how would they even construct these fortresses? They won't have access to the materials needed to construct such structures.
Not to mention, the Spanish aren't conquering the New World via a top-down approach, it's private individuals. These individuals won't see strategic interests of a Spanish state, especially as of the current TL year where Spanish Mexico is still a relatively new phenomenom. All they'll see is an absurdly difficult nut to crack, and this'll become more and more true over the years. The window for Spanish conquest is over and done with now in all likelihood.
The Smallpox issue is a problem.
Europe doesn't have it yet, do it might be awhile.
Cusco is weakened. But powerful.
He was a clever man.
The reinforcements are OTL.
Woot. Woot.
The Inca were not afraid of the water. Traders went far into the Pacific. But wood is an issue.
They are indeed far outnumbered.
^This. The Inca are now fully aware of Spanish capabilities and will be more than ready to meet them. The Spanish hold no hope of conquering large stretches of land now.
The Conquest of America was a low cost, high benefit endeavor for Spain. What they would do if they had to put a lot of funding into it……
Cannons are in the same boat as guns and paper has yet to impress them.
Gorilla =/= South America.
Yep.
Conquistadors were not unknown to disappearances.
Spain does have a lot on their plate.
Certainly the other areas of America have become appealing.
True.
Deleted member 93645
It's possible that the smallpox epidemics, like the Plague in Europe, would lead to a lot of vacant land, which the Emperor could grant to various individuals in the empire. So if the Sapa Inca has a clear successor, preventing civil war, then central power could be preserved through the period of intermittent chaos.
In New Spain, the population continued to decline until the 1600s. So the Incas may have to ally with non-Spanish colonists--possibly Caribbean pirates--against the Spanish to retain their territory.
Once they have built up some basic "industry" and can build large ships, the Incas could also recruit Chichimeca from New Spain as mercenaries.
Emperor RyRy
Banned
I cannot express my excitement. I've always wanted to do a surviving Tawantinsuyu TL, but never had the time.
Oh my god.
Oh my god.
lordapocalipsis
Banned
That could be interesting, having more local allies, could slower the spanish advance, until finally get in contact with the other european powers
Chapter 1.5: Further Occurences
Chapter 5: Further Occurences
A Stylized Representation of Alamagro's Arrival
As the new year dawned Rumiñavi grew impatient waiting for Diego de Almagro the leader of the reinforcements that Hernando Pizarro had promised. The tension was excruciating. He readied himself by attacking Tumbez with his army, aiming to dislodge the Spanish left there. The Spanish, with the defenses of the town and superior numbers, and knowledge, of their weaponry, were able to inflict heavy casualties on Rumiñavi's forces before they were swamped by sheer numbers of Tawantinsuyu soldiers who grew less afraid of the Spaniards every day. The Second Battle of Tumbez was largely a waste of time and men for Rumiñavi as it only provided the Empire meager gains from the relatively poorly equipped garrison. It did however deny Almagro a friendly city to rest his forces in when they came.
Almagro had followed Pizarro's example and wandered around the north a bit before turning south towards Tumbez. Their march south was blocked on April 7 1533 when the forefront of Rumiñavi's army blocked the road to Tumbez. They, having no knowledge of what had transpired at Saña or the Chancay Road, demanded passage to meet "Francisco". Rumiñavi in turn invited them to meet with him at his camp. Having no word from Pizarro Almargo was cautious and uneager to march into the Tawantinsuyu army. But he saw no other way. He expected his weapons to awe the natives into submission.
Instead of a reception fit for a king he got attacked. As soon as his men entered into the camp and dismounted they were set upon in tight quarters by Tawantinsuyu bearing swords, shocking the Spaniards. The seizure had a massive stroke of good luck when Almagro was seized first, decapitating the Spanish leadership. After their capture the Tawantinsuyu marched on the Spanish encampment to complete the ambush. Rumiñavi himself, carefully balanced on a docile horse, rode with his force, with a steel helmet on his head. Such a sight, a native with Spanish things, caused fright in the ranks. Such terror was only increased when a select few Tawantinsuyu warriors drew swords on the Spanish. The Spanish at the Third Battle of Tumbez[1] were able to kill a few Tawantinsuyu but were overwhelmed quickly all the same.
Rumiñavi Triumphant
This left all of the Spanish in the Tawantinsuyu Empire in captivity. Atahualpa could now focus on internal affairs, at least for now.
Word was sent far and wide to inform all Tawantinsuyu soldiers that the Spanish were enemies of the Empire and to be destroyed. The highly centralized state quickened the diffusion of crossbows into the army, as well as other skills. Campaigns into the jungle brought back knowledge of longbow crafting techniques, long ignored by the Empire, and brought them into the lime light.
However smallpox and other new and deadly European diseases continued the wipe huge swaths of the empire clean of people no one was safe. From the peasants who supplied the food to highest levels of nobility deaths occurred at a frightening pace. While the Tawantinsuyu's well managed communal storehouse system would prevent full on famine across the Empire certain areas would face shortages of food which heightened discontent I'm certain area. With instability from the unexpected succession and the plagues rising many local rulers jockeyed for power. Some tried to find favor in the Inka and gain stature while others, mainly supporters of Huascar before his death, grumbled and plotted for their own power. Some of these favored the Spanish and earned the nickname "los canallas", the scoundrels. But they remained divided and the Spanish imprisoned.
Further interrogation of the Spanish revealed bit by bit more information about the new technology to the Inka and his inner circle. It became apparent the mountains lacked certain resources needed to make them in large quantities. The jungle, long avoided by the Tawantinsuyu held resources that would be useful. A swing to the south in terms of focus would strengthen Atahualpa's ties with Cusco. Such a move would not be favored by the Quitian's who made up the Inka's power base but they would remain loyal to their leader.
Atahualpa tried to appeal to the Cusco Nobles
Atahualpa proved able enough at appealing to the traditional elites, maintaining the royal family's godhood and and appealing to other nobles by rewarding the most loyal with lavish rewards. The decimation of the ruling class by plagues forced the more rapid assimilation of conquered leaders into the empire's leadership. But, in fear of a revolt, he kept the Cusco elites higher up on the ladder. This created, for a brief period of time, a quasi-feudal structure in the Tawantinsuyu Empire with the royal family at the top, followed by the Cusco nobles and the Quitian elites brought in by Atahualpa before dropping down to the local leaders. But the social changes were still in great flux.
The Technological advances by the military bore fruits for the first time in the months following Almagro's capture. Tawantinsuyu troops under Rumiñavi decisively defeated several northern tribes using crossbows and a few guns. With this show of force Atahualpa attempted, and for the most part succeeded, to make peace in the north. His focus could be sent east for the jungle and its resources for crossbows and guns, while the search for iron ore and gunpowder ingredients became a military endeavor. Rumiñavi was placed in charge of fortifying the coast against further incursions by the Spanish. Chalcuchima began campaigns into the eastern jungles aiming to subjugate the tribes there, the general would later die of disease there[2]. The northernmost frontier against fellow natives was given to Ucumari, a loyal follower of Atahualpa. This left Quisquis in charge of Cusco along with Atahualpa himself.
The presence of a large army in Cusco was justified as defense, and that was almost certainly the case. But the largely foreign make up of Atahualpa's army caused resentment, both from local rulers and the common populace. They despised the foreign occupation force and wanted a return of the Sapa Inka's power to Cusco after years of campaigning by the Inka in the north. Atahualpa, a northerner through and through, was an anti-thesis to them. His rule, despite having defeated the Spanish, seemed weak after a questionable succession and an epidemic. His enemies spread rumors about how the Spanish were pitiful fighters and his defeating a few hundred was hardly an accomplishment. They held that the Spanish were a distraction from the true foreign conquest, that of the Quitians.
What exactly Atahualpa's enemies wanted to do with the Spanish is unclear and likely varied. Some might have wanted to abandon the foreign technology they brought and use traditional weapons while others might have considered giving them the North to spare them the trouble of fighting there.
Similarly their intentions after a hypothetical power shift were fractured. Some might have wanted a new Inka while others might have balked at removing a "living god" from power. Those opponents likely wanted to turn Atahualpa into a figure head.
These forces would have been scattered had they not been united by a powerful backer, one of the only three notable sons of Huayna Capac who had survived the plagues. He brought them together, organized them as best he could and used his position as a royal to smuggle new weapons to the potential rebels around the Cusco area.
In mid-October 1533 the rebellion began, centered around the royal retreat at Machu Picchu
+++
1: At this point the Tawantinsuyu are very confused about the Spanish obsession with Tumbez.
2: Oddly enough it appears not to have been a European disease.
A Stylized Representation of Alamagro's Arrival
As the new year dawned Rumiñavi grew impatient waiting for Diego de Almagro the leader of the reinforcements that Hernando Pizarro had promised. The tension was excruciating. He readied himself by attacking Tumbez with his army, aiming to dislodge the Spanish left there. The Spanish, with the defenses of the town and superior numbers, and knowledge, of their weaponry, were able to inflict heavy casualties on Rumiñavi's forces before they were swamped by sheer numbers of Tawantinsuyu soldiers who grew less afraid of the Spaniards every day. The Second Battle of Tumbez was largely a waste of time and men for Rumiñavi as it only provided the Empire meager gains from the relatively poorly equipped garrison. It did however deny Almagro a friendly city to rest his forces in when they came.
Almagro had followed Pizarro's example and wandered around the north a bit before turning south towards Tumbez. Their march south was blocked on April 7 1533 when the forefront of Rumiñavi's army blocked the road to Tumbez. They, having no knowledge of what had transpired at Saña or the Chancay Road, demanded passage to meet "Francisco". Rumiñavi in turn invited them to meet with him at his camp. Having no word from Pizarro Almargo was cautious and uneager to march into the Tawantinsuyu army. But he saw no other way. He expected his weapons to awe the natives into submission.
Instead of a reception fit for a king he got attacked. As soon as his men entered into the camp and dismounted they were set upon in tight quarters by Tawantinsuyu bearing swords, shocking the Spaniards. The seizure had a massive stroke of good luck when Almagro was seized first, decapitating the Spanish leadership. After their capture the Tawantinsuyu marched on the Spanish encampment to complete the ambush. Rumiñavi himself, carefully balanced on a docile horse, rode with his force, with a steel helmet on his head. Such a sight, a native with Spanish things, caused fright in the ranks. Such terror was only increased when a select few Tawantinsuyu warriors drew swords on the Spanish. The Spanish at the Third Battle of Tumbez[1] were able to kill a few Tawantinsuyu but were overwhelmed quickly all the same.
Rumiñavi Triumphant
This left all of the Spanish in the Tawantinsuyu Empire in captivity. Atahualpa could now focus on internal affairs, at least for now.
Word was sent far and wide to inform all Tawantinsuyu soldiers that the Spanish were enemies of the Empire and to be destroyed. The highly centralized state quickened the diffusion of crossbows into the army, as well as other skills. Campaigns into the jungle brought back knowledge of longbow crafting techniques, long ignored by the Empire, and brought them into the lime light.
However smallpox and other new and deadly European diseases continued the wipe huge swaths of the empire clean of people no one was safe. From the peasants who supplied the food to highest levels of nobility deaths occurred at a frightening pace. While the Tawantinsuyu's well managed communal storehouse system would prevent full on famine across the Empire certain areas would face shortages of food which heightened discontent I'm certain area. With instability from the unexpected succession and the plagues rising many local rulers jockeyed for power. Some tried to find favor in the Inka and gain stature while others, mainly supporters of Huascar before his death, grumbled and plotted for their own power. Some of these favored the Spanish and earned the nickname "los canallas", the scoundrels. But they remained divided and the Spanish imprisoned.
Further interrogation of the Spanish revealed bit by bit more information about the new technology to the Inka and his inner circle. It became apparent the mountains lacked certain resources needed to make them in large quantities. The jungle, long avoided by the Tawantinsuyu held resources that would be useful. A swing to the south in terms of focus would strengthen Atahualpa's ties with Cusco. Such a move would not be favored by the Quitian's who made up the Inka's power base but they would remain loyal to their leader.
Atahualpa tried to appeal to the Cusco Nobles
Atahualpa proved able enough at appealing to the traditional elites, maintaining the royal family's godhood and and appealing to other nobles by rewarding the most loyal with lavish rewards. The decimation of the ruling class by plagues forced the more rapid assimilation of conquered leaders into the empire's leadership. But, in fear of a revolt, he kept the Cusco elites higher up on the ladder. This created, for a brief period of time, a quasi-feudal structure in the Tawantinsuyu Empire with the royal family at the top, followed by the Cusco nobles and the Quitian elites brought in by Atahualpa before dropping down to the local leaders. But the social changes were still in great flux.
The Technological advances by the military bore fruits for the first time in the months following Almagro's capture. Tawantinsuyu troops under Rumiñavi decisively defeated several northern tribes using crossbows and a few guns. With this show of force Atahualpa attempted, and for the most part succeeded, to make peace in the north. His focus could be sent east for the jungle and its resources for crossbows and guns, while the search for iron ore and gunpowder ingredients became a military endeavor. Rumiñavi was placed in charge of fortifying the coast against further incursions by the Spanish. Chalcuchima began campaigns into the eastern jungles aiming to subjugate the tribes there, the general would later die of disease there[2]. The northernmost frontier against fellow natives was given to Ucumari, a loyal follower of Atahualpa. This left Quisquis in charge of Cusco along with Atahualpa himself.
The presence of a large army in Cusco was justified as defense, and that was almost certainly the case. But the largely foreign make up of Atahualpa's army caused resentment, both from local rulers and the common populace. They despised the foreign occupation force and wanted a return of the Sapa Inka's power to Cusco after years of campaigning by the Inka in the north. Atahualpa, a northerner through and through, was an anti-thesis to them. His rule, despite having defeated the Spanish, seemed weak after a questionable succession and an epidemic. His enemies spread rumors about how the Spanish were pitiful fighters and his defeating a few hundred was hardly an accomplishment. They held that the Spanish were a distraction from the true foreign conquest, that of the Quitians.
What exactly Atahualpa's enemies wanted to do with the Spanish is unclear and likely varied. Some might have wanted to abandon the foreign technology they brought and use traditional weapons while others might have considered giving them the North to spare them the trouble of fighting there.
Similarly their intentions after a hypothetical power shift were fractured. Some might have wanted a new Inka while others might have balked at removing a "living god" from power. Those opponents likely wanted to turn Atahualpa into a figure head.
These forces would have been scattered had they not been united by a powerful backer, one of the only three notable sons of Huayna Capac who had survived the plagues. He brought them together, organized them as best he could and used his position as a royal to smuggle new weapons to the potential rebels around the Cusco area.
In mid-October 1533 the rebellion began, centered around the royal retreat at Machu Picchu
+++
1: At this point the Tawantinsuyu are very confused about the Spanish obsession with Tumbez.
2: Oddly enough it appears not to have been a European disease.
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