The Footprint of Mussolini - TL

[thekingsguard]

I mean, for all the talk of Redbaiting and the Red Scare, lest we forget: they were to some extent, correct. The Soviets had countless spies and sympathizers in the USA, even in places like Congress or the Manhattan project.

God help how TTL will react to the Rosenbergs.

 

[Bookmark1995]

I mean, for all the talk of Redbaiting and the Red Scare, lest we forget: they were to some extent, correct. The Soviets had countless spies and sympathizers in the USA, even in places like Congress or the Manhattan project.

God help how TTL will react to the Rosenbergs.

Let's not forget Soviet Russia was full of mass graves, ethnic cleansing...

Congratulations Wallace, you've enabled a mass murderer. Granted Mussolini isn't a saint, but he hasn't brutally purged or starved millions of Italians.

 

[Herr Frage]

With Europe on it's own Britain and France will be MORE willing to have Germany rearm than OTL. And I deliberatly wrote "have" rather than "let".
It's going to be simply a matter of wanting Germany to start providing manpower and defense spending to hold the line against the Soviet Empire.

It won't happen quickly I expect. I'd say two years at the earliest before any German military revival starts, not counting Austria. Time for the war mentality to die down some and Germany to rebuild its economy. And time for Stalin's jumping down the the slippery slope to start painting the east red and the splatters to start hitting in the West.

And even when it starts it will probably be pitched initially as purely defensive force to ease the allied powers burden.

Before military matters there will be questions on Germany's new government too. It seems Churchill at least fancies the notion ITTL of restoring a monarchy in West Germany.

 

[Thomas Wilkins]

It won't happen quickly I expect. I'd say two years at the earliest before any German military revival starts, not counting Austria. Time for the war mentality to die down some and Germany to rebuild its economy. And time for Stalin's jumping down the the slippery slope to start painting the east red and the splatters to start hitting in the West.

And even when it starts it will probably be pitched initially as purely defensive force to ease the allied powers burden.

Before military matters there will be questions on Germany's new government too. It seems Churchill at least fancies the notion ITTL of restoring a monarchy in West Germany.

I hope it's a Hohenzollern they put on the throne.

 

[Herr Frage]

I hope it's a Hohenzollern they put on the throne.

Good news, look likes this is the fellow they have their eyes on:

It was the house of the late Crown Prince Wilhelm, who had been killed by Himmler during the latter days of the war for fear of a Hohenzollern claim on the throne due to the uprising of the Conservative elements of German society against the Nazis. His son, Louis Ferdinand, was there to commemorate his father and wished that the Allied powers achieved a lasting, just peace for Germany. Ferdinand had narrowly escaped capture and fled to the Italians just before being captured by the Gestapo. His refinement and anti-Nazi credentials impressed both Mussolini and Churchill – perhaps an idea was already running through their minds.

I don't think DeGaulle would be much in favor of a restoration, but I don't think he would rock the boat much so long as he gets some concessions for assent by silence.

 

[RyuDrago]

Good news, look likes this is the fellow they have their eyes on:



I don't think DeGaulle would be much in favor of a restoration, but I don't think he would rock the boat much so long as he gets some concessions for assent by silence.

The point is: there may be a new Reich or instead a Konigreich ? Because, just the sound "Reich" could give a bad vibe across Europe. Whereas, a monarchic "demotion" could be seen as an ulterior yet moderate punishment for Germany so more adeguate.

 

[lukedalton]

I mean, for all the talk of Redbaiting and the Red Scare, lest we forget: they were to some extent, correct. The Soviets had countless spies and sympathizers in the USA, even in places like Congress or the Manhattan project.

But not intentionally, for them it was just luck; McCarty and co., IRC were not informed of the VENONA files; they basically smell a political opportunity and create a modern day 'Salem witch hunt' for their gain...that's they were correct by pure chance and without they know it, it's another matter.

Still ITTL between Wallace being a Stalin fanboy and basically fighting a war in Asia for the URSS benefit, things will be up to eleven in term of paranoia...and i doubt that the american democracy will survive this in pristine condition

 

[traveller76]

The Western Democracies and Fascists are going to be looking for allies and markets for goods. The Fascists may have representatives continue to tour heavily Catholic countries to encourage trade and travel to Europe and sell goods and fight 'godless Communists'. The French, British, Dutch may start either a process of de-colonization or reforming the colonies with some gaining autonomy with more investment and immigration.

The Germany Armed Forces may be restricted on size and type of weapons they can have. No heavy armor, heavy artillery, bombers, naval ships larger than a destroyer for example. However, that does not mean that the German military could not train or use them in other countries as part of their defense commitments or that there are stockpiles and arsenals near the German border.

 

[thekingsguard]

But not intentionally, for them it was just luck; McCarty and co., IRC were not informed of the VENONA files; they basically smell a political opportunity and create a modern day 'Salem witch hunt' for their gain...that's they were correct by pure chance and without they know it, it's another matter.

Still ITTL between Wallace being a Stalin fanboy and basically fighting a war in Asia for the URSS benefit, things will be up to eleven in term of paranoia...and i doubt that the american democracy will survive this in pristine condition

I've ways hated comparing the Red Scare to the Salem witch hunts. For one, there actually WERE communists, one pair of which literally giftwrapped the atom bomb for the USSR.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

The Germany Armed Forces may be restricted on size and type of weapons they can have. No heavy armor, heavy artillery, bombers, naval ships larger than a destroyer for example. However, that does not mean that the German military could not train or use them in other countries as part of their defense commitments or that there are stockpiles and arsenals near the German border.

I’d say it’ll shake down to a similar size and capability to the OTL Cold War-era Bundeswehr: around half a million in the Heer; conscription; some seriously good tanks and artillery; and joint fighter projects with Britain and Italy for the Luftwaffe. But on the flip-side: no big bomber aircraft; no long-range rocketry; small Navy; no nukes; and with the force optimised for defence and not attack.

 

[Icedaemon]

Especially with the Luftwaffles being more comprised of die-hard nazis than the Heer, I'd think that the allies would rather Germany had no air force to speak of, but instead play host to Anglo-French and perhaps also Italian and/or American airbases.

 

[akoslows]

I've ways hated comparing the Red Scare to the Salem witch hunts. For one, there actually WERE communists, one pair of which literally giftwrapped the atom bomb for the USSR.

That’s true, but weren’t there still a bunch of innocent people who were falsely accused of being communists and had there lives and careers completely destroyed as a result?

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Especially with the Luftwaffles being more comprised of die-hard nazis than the Heer, I'd think that the allies would rather Germany had no air force to speak of, but instead play host to Anglo-French and perhaps also Italian and/or American airbases.

Eh, if anything I’d say the Bundeswehr Luftwaffe will be larger than OTL. Germany rebuilt its airforce OTL when it fought to the bitter end, and ITTL there was an active civil war when Wehrmacht elements rose up against the Nazis, plus a stronger USSR and less reliable US... I’d say it'll at least have the same capabilities as OTL’s West German air forces. No bombers, for sure, but probably a load of interceptors.

 

[lukedalton]

I've ways hated comparing the Red Scare to the Salem witch hunts. For one, there actually WERE communists, one pair of which literally giftwrapped the atom bomb for the USSR.

Still in term of panic building and innerworking, general persecution of the accused (death and torture aside) is more or less a very pertinent comparisation, sure in this specific case communist existed (and helped a lot)...but for McCarty, Cohen and the rest it was more or less irrilevant as the principal objective was not rooting out spies but simply increase their influence, control and power.

 

[Unknown]

This is gonna make Russiagate OTL look like a tempest in a teapot, IMO...

 

[Evil Crusader]

Mussolini was perhaps the most brazen about it, as was to be expected. In September, he began the ‘Million Letter Campaign’, which encouraged all Italians who had family in America to write there and encourage them to support ‘Pro-Italy, Pro-Europe’ positions at the ballot box. New York and New Jersey were soon beset by countless numbers of letters urging Italian-American cooperation.

Yeah, not gonna work. It would remind people of Madison Square Garden and the German-American Bund. (It does seem in line with Mussolini's bombastic actions though.) Asking for anti-Communist vote would be okay though.

Catholic traditionalists, Monarchists and Classical Liberals were allowed some levels of expression that did not exist before. Among the notable dissidents who were given newfound freedom was Alcide De Gasperi, a right-wing politician who had been persecuted since the rise of Fascism. He was finally allowed the freedom to travel Italy after his exile in the Vatican.

De Gasperi was not really a right-wing politician, especially not in a world where Fascism is a legitimate right--wing ideology.

But alas, those are nitpicks. Good writing as usual.

 

[Icedaemon]

The British, however, had their own ideas. The files have only recently been released, but the work was astonishing nonetheless. It seems that shortly after the Potsdam Conference, a top-secret intelligence program was launched called Operation Lazarus. It was an astonishingly vast operation designed to support the Anti-Communist elements of American society and injure Pro-Soviet ones. Perhaps even more incredibly, they had a number of high level contacts within multiple sectors of American military intelligence, whether it was the OSS (soon to be CIA), the FBI, even the police forces in the major cities. Agents did everything from seducing socialites into funding Anti-Communist drives, blackmailing other socialites to stop them funding Pro-Communist drives and often finding themselves trying to uproot and uncover Soviet spies working right next door to them. Given that Ian Fleming was a member of this Operation (though his precise role is unknown) it seems likely that many of the James Bond novels he wrote were inspired by his time in America.

Hopefully, the British will take the revelations from Operation Lazarus to look to their own shores and clean house of their soviet spies, at least somewhat.

Jesus Christ. These are real people that actually existed.

There are few things comparable in scale to human stupidity, but human greed does come close.

 

[QueenErisJane32]

Hopefully, the British will take the revelations from Operation Lazarus to look to their own shores and clean house of their soviet spies, at least somewhat.

I do so want this to be true, we might rid ourselves of the Cambridge Five and that traitor, Comrade Cripps.

 

[lukedalton]

I do so want this to be true, we might rid ourselves of the Cambridge Five and that traitor, Comrade Cripps.

Maybe if some agent with information about them defect, otherwise i found it very difficult; the Cambridge Five were part of the 'Old Boy Club', with the right family and the right background and so at the time capable of go on with their career and have a certain degree of protection.
If caught now, the scandal will be immense, much much worse than OTL and an huge embarasment for the Churchill govement

 

[Arlos]

I don't think DeGaulle would be much in favor of a restoration, but I don't think he would rock the boat much so long as he gets some concessions for assent by silence.

De Gaulle was a Monarchist. Surprise.

The point is: there may be a new Reich or instead a Konigreich ? Because, just the sound "Reich" could give a bad vibe across Europe. Whereas, a monarchic "demotion" could be seen as an ulterior yet moderate punishment for Germany so more adeguate.

Reich isn’t a negative word by itself, it does not even mean empire, not really, Granted it did get a bad name because of Hitler and his Cronies, just calling it Kaiserreich should be fine.