The Footprint of Mussolini - TL

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Sorairo, Feb 20, 2019.

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  1. Herr Frage Jesus Christ Is In Heaven

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  2. thekingsguard Founder of Korsgaardianism

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    I mean, for all the talk of Redbaiting and the Red Scare, lest we forget: they were to some extent, correct. The Soviets had countless spies and sympathizers in the USA, even in places like Congress or the Manhattan project.

    God help how TTL will react to the Rosenbergs.
     
  3. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    Let's not forget Soviet Russia was full of mass graves, ethnic cleansing...

    Congratulations Wallace, you've enabled a mass murderer. Granted Mussolini isn't a saint, but he hasn't brutally purged or starved millions of Italians.
     
  4. Herr Frage Jesus Christ Is In Heaven

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    It won't happen quickly I expect. I'd say two years at the earliest before any German military revival starts, not counting Austria. Time for the war mentality to die down some and Germany to rebuild its economy. And time for Stalin's jumping down the the slippery slope to start painting the east red and the splatters to start hitting in the West.

    And even when it starts it will probably be pitched initially as purely defensive force to ease the allied powers burden.

    Before military matters there will be questions on Germany's new government too. It seems Churchill at least fancies the notion ITTL of restoring a monarchy in West Germany.
     
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  5. Thomas Wilkins Banned

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    I hope it's a Hohenzollern they put on the throne.
     
  6. Herr Frage Jesus Christ Is In Heaven

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    Good news, look likes this is the fellow they have their eyes on:

    I don't think DeGaulle would be much in favor of a restoration, but I don't think he would rock the boat much so long as he gets some concessions for assent by silence.
     
  7. RyuDrago Italian? Yes, but also Roman

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    The point is: there may be a new Reich or instead a Konigreich ? Because, just the sound "Reich" could give a bad vibe across Europe. Whereas, a monarchic "demotion" could be seen as an ulterior yet moderate punishment for Germany so more adeguate.
     
  8. lukedalton Well-Known Member

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    But not intentionally, for them it was just luck; McCarty and co., IRC were not informed of the VENONA files; they basically smell a political opportunity and create a modern day 'Salem witch hunt' for their gain...that's they were correct by pure chance and without they know it, it's another matter.

    Still ITTL between Wallace being a Stalin fanboy and basically fighting a war in Asia for the URSS benefit, things will be up to eleven in term of paranoia...and i doubt that the american democracy will survive this in pristine condition
     
  9. traveller76 Member

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    The Western Democracies and Fascists are going to be looking for allies and markets for goods. The Fascists may have representatives continue to tour heavily Catholic countries to encourage trade and travel to Europe and sell goods and fight 'godless Communists'. The French, British, Dutch may start either a process of de-colonization or reforming the colonies with some gaining autonomy with more investment and immigration.

    The Germany Armed Forces may be restricted on size and type of weapons they can have. No heavy armor, heavy artillery, bombers, naval ships larger than a destroyer for example. However, that does not mean that the German military could not train or use them in other countries as part of their defense commitments or that there are stockpiles and arsenals near the German border.
     
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  10. thekingsguard Founder of Korsgaardianism

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    I've ways hated comparing the Red Scare to the Salem witch hunts. For one, there actually WERE communists, one pair of which literally giftwrapped the atom bomb for the USSR.
     
  11. theg*ddam*hoi2fan Beware of the Leopard

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    I’d say it’ll shake down to a similar size and capability to the OTL Cold War-era Bundeswehr: around half a million in the Heer; conscription; some seriously good tanks and artillery; and joint fighter projects with Britain and Italy for the Luftwaffe. But on the flip-side: no big bomber aircraft; no long-range rocketry; small Navy; no nukes; and with the force optimised for defence and not attack.
     
  12. Icedaemon Well-Known Member

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    Especially with the Luftwaffles being more comprised of die-hard nazis than the Heer, I'd think that the allies would rather Germany had no air force to speak of, but instead play host to Anglo-French and perhaps also Italian and/or American airbases.
     
  13. akoslows Well-Known Member

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    That’s true, but weren’t there still a bunch of innocent people who were falsely accused of being communists and had there lives and careers completely destroyed as a result?
     
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  14. theg*ddam*hoi2fan Beware of the Leopard

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    Eh, if anything I’d say the Bundeswehr Luftwaffe will be larger than OTL. Germany rebuilt its airforce OTL when it fought to the bitter end, and ITTL there was an active civil war when Wehrmacht elements rose up against the Nazis, plus a stronger USSR and less reliable US... I’d say it'll at least have the same capabilities as OTL’s West German air forces. No bombers, for sure, but probably a load of interceptors.
     
  15. lukedalton Well-Known Member

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    Still in term of panic building and innerworking, general persecution of the accused (death and torture aside) is more or less a very pertinent comparisation, sure in this specific case communist existed (and helped a lot)...but for McCarty, Cohen and the rest it was more or less irrilevant as the principal objective was not rooting out spies but simply increase their influence, control and power.
     
  16. Unknown Member

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    This is gonna make Russiagate OTL look like a tempest in a teapot, IMO...
     
  17. Evil Crusader Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, not gonna work. It would remind people of Madison Square Garden and the German-American Bund. (It does seem in line with Mussolini's bombastic actions though.) Asking for anti-Communist vote would be okay though.

    De Gasperi was not really a right-wing politician, especially not in a world where Fascism is a legitimate right--wing ideology.

    But alas, those are nitpicks. Good writing as usual.
     
  18. Icedaemon Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully, the British will take the revelations from Operation Lazarus to look to their own shores and clean house of their soviet spies, at least somewhat.

    There are few things comparable in scale to human stupidity, but human greed does come close.
     
  19. QueenErisJane32 Champion of Stannis Baratheon

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    I do so want this to be true, we might rid ourselves of the Cambridge Five and that traitor, Comrade Cripps.
     
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  20. lukedalton Well-Known Member

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    Maybe if some agent with information about them defect, otherwise i found it very difficult; the Cambridge Five were part of the 'Old Boy Club', with the right family and the right background and so at the time capable of go on with their career and have a certain degree of protection.
    If caught now, the scandal will be immense, much much worse than OTL and an huge embarasment for the Churchill govement
     
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