The Footprint of Mussolini - TL

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Sorairo, Feb 20, 2019.

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  1. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    He scares me because he was eager to nuke China during the Korean War.
     
  2. thanix01 Well-Known Member

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    Wasn’t Churchill propose starting WW3 when soviet are not ready right after WW2?
     
  3. Adelkman Well-Known Member

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    Didn't Wallace ceded whole Korea to the Soviet Union? Then a "Korean War" like OTL cannot happen. Maybe, way further in the future (rebellion/staged coup against the communists?).

    Only as a contingence measure, which would require very favourable conditions and friendly USA. With the latter lacking and without the Lend-Lease, UK is to indebted to try something like this.
    Although, I cannot exclude that ITTL Churchill will order the draft of a common military strategy between Commonwealth, France and Roman Alliance. Mussolini would not refuse: extra help against the commies would always be welcomed. I've to see what De Gaulle is up now (I don't remember). Would he become a political leader inside the France parliament, or wait for the right moment to transform the Fourth Republic in the Fifth Republic like OTL? Still, a not-leftist french government would hardly refuse a helping hand before the military and economic recovery of France.
    Maybe, they could even draft Sweden in the plan. Now bordering the USSR, they will hardly feel secure.

    Could we try to give a name of this new plan? Something liked by bot english and italians. Like "Plan Hadrian's Wall" (Piano Vallo d'Adriano in italian and Plan Mur d'Hadrien in french). The name it's important, it could be used to bait Mussolini's ego to accept. He could not resist a foreign recognition based on an ancient roman's military marvel, while I doubt an englisman would ever renounce to throw a light jab against the Scotts. Because, just as the old "Wall" keepd at bay the barbarians (the Pitts, now Scotts), so should the new (the soviets).

    It would be nice to see something like that in this TL.
     
  4. thanix01 Well-Known Member

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    If any action is to be taken it is have to be early or really late. Early before MAD or late and wait for soviet collapse.

    Though early before MAD would be extremely bloody and without American help victory is not guarranteed. But soviet collapse might not happen either.
     
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  5. Herr Frage Jesus Christ Is In Heaven

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    When was he called President? Truman just refers to him as General Patton. What did I miss?
     
  6. AZNMAGICMAN Well-Known Member

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    In Korea there were plenty of Anti-communists who were a part of the Independence Movements like Kim Gu, Lee Beom-seok, Syngman Rhee and etc. So I could see the US (After Wallace is no longer President) or heck even Fascist Italy use these folks to incite an Anti-Communist rebellion and quite possibly a civil war in Korea.
     
  7. lukedalton Well-Known Member

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    Well, the name will probably work for Benny even if it imply something of defensive, maybe the general military cooperation plan of the big european three (UK, France and Italy) in case the URSS invade one alliance (or the neutral) and the other two will be obbliged to intervene in her defense; probably something of unofficial like Israel nuclear weapon possession (official deny of their existence but everybody know that they exist)
     
  8. Adelkman Well-Known Member

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    It's possible, but that would require additional factors. First, Stalin must be dead for something to happens. ITTL he's just the kind of madman who don't care about the price of his objective. Then all the anti-communists heads or at least most of them must have survived the inevitable purges the communists would launch in Korea. Then, you have to make their programme not to anti-communist: it's obivious that a dirty poor paesant will always choose land expropriation from landowner to himself, and Asia was full of poor farmers.

    USA, and especially CIA post-Wallace would likely waltz in supporting every anti-communist and right-wing group in communist countries, probably with little regard toward their true objective (freedom-fighter or common gangsters).
    Italy would like try to join, but we must remember: Italy is too far away. Mussolini could try to play the neutral party, too foreign to have personal interests in those regions. He only need level-headed diplomats. I remember something like this OTL, when Florence's mayor, Giorgio La Pira, brokened a bilateral deal between USA and Vietnam for a peace accord in '65. The viets didn't want to bee seen as the losing faction, but the the hawks at the Pentagon leaked the deal to the newspaper, who promptly published articles saying that North Vietnam was ready to surrender, thus sinking the deal for good. Then US of America had to swallow a way worse treaty later and they totally deserved it.

    Well, obviously it's a defensive pact. Being much wiser ITTL, Mussolini know that tackling the soviets it's a suicide. Also, it would probably not only have a military aspect, but economic and political. Likely, without espionage integration for obvious difference between countries. Still, the base idea would be to create a ground as hostile as possible to soviet penetration, both with military preparation and with fight against traditional communist footholds. A rapid economical development in both winning and loosing countries would deprive the commies with lots of potential recruits desperate to survive (that's a traditional pool for every revolutionary entity).
    I remember that in OTL, Germany was starving, while Italy's industries were dry of coal. A plan was forwarded to exchange italian food production with german coal to restart both countries' economies. The Allied (I think the french were the most vocals, but I'm not sure) torpedoed the proposal. ITTL, somebody (like, Churchill) has to put in front every european nation the fact: collaborate or die by soviets hands. This could make the recalcitrants to swallow the bitter pill.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  9. PoorBoy Laborus Tardis

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    Unless he elects to become the de facto shogun as per OTL.
     
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  10. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    Shogun?
     
  11. Thomas Wilkins Banned

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    Why not call him 'The American Caesar'?
     
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  12. PoorBoy Laborus Tardis

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    During the American Occupation, MacArthur was a military leader in charge of a Japan with a powerless Emperor Hirohito, which effectively made him shogun all but in name in the eyes of contemporary Japanese.
     
  13. jlckansas Well-Known Member

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    If you read some of the contemporary writings from Japan and the US, there were some segments of society wanted just that to happen and have him become Shogun. This was not to be a honorific but the actual title and job for him in postwar Japan. He had many different segments of society there on his side and were looking at him as a leader to get them back on track. Some even said he understood them like no other Gai Jin.
     
  14. frenchiestfries His Highness

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    Imagine... the MacArthur Shogunate.

    Terrifying.
     
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  15. Noblesse Oblige Reaper Squad Member

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    *Spits out coffee*

    WHAT?!?

    Oh sweet Jesus Christ, please tell me that isn't a true thing, right? RIGHT?!?
     
  16. Alpha-King98760 Aku's most favorite assassin, babe!

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    Wow, that’s fascinating! I never knew that.
     
  17. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    Do OTL Japanese praise MacArthur in their textbooks? And do they do it for the right reasons?
     
  18. Herr Frage Jesus Christ Is In Heaven

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    With the Western Allies at such odds it will be interesting to see how the occupation of Germany takes shape. Britain and even France want to rebuild Germany into a power that can stand with them against the Soviets. But I could see Wallace taking a very dim view to restoring German power quickly.
     
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  19. RyuDrago Italian? Yes, but also Roman

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    Well in truth he bargained at Potsdam a very light American presence in Germany - as hint would pull out from Germany soon as possible. Is probable he would stall the negotiations to retain the status quo, but is also true around 1954-1955 he won't be President anymore so maybe - depending also who would succeed to Stalin TTL - a slight better agreement could be reached about the end of the occupation.
     
  20. Adelkman Well-Known Member

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    Well, France isn't that desperate yet. The usual vengenful french. De Gaulle could be already consider the necessity of rearming Germany, but the whole of the french population would see the germans only as defeated enemies for quite some years. Just remembers: most of OTL's political decisions were made with the guts, not with the brains, because an opposition between to ideologies is hardly dictated by logic.
    Fort this view to change, we'll need first some public repressive action from the soviets, like OTL East German Uprising of 1953 and Hungarian Revolution of 1956. ITTL those two obviously won't fit right, so maybe some kind of general strike in Poland promptly repressed by the soviets. Until then, thr french left-wing would never accept any kind of german rearmament.
    Rearmament that would happens only after UK, France and Italy would acknowledge how damning is to sustain a big occupation army in Germany for years. Before that, it's probable that there would only be a german border guards, maybe heavily armed, but still not quite an army.
    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
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