The Dead Skunk
- Thread starter Lycaon pictus
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Lycaon pictus
Donor
Thank you. British Florida is one of my favorite parts of this.
The worst of the economic troubles will be from 1820 through the end of 1822, but you'll have to wait and see about the political effects. (There will be a certain amount of drama to them, I promise.)
Stolengood
Banned
...and I can very clearly see that.
The royals will be imbroiled somehow, right...?
Clever Men (3)
Lycaon pictus
Donor
The roads and canals under construction would, when completed, allow the United States to transport a large army deep into the interior of the continent and keep it supplied. Never again would the British Empire be able to contest the Upper Mississippi as they had in the War of 1812.
But when considering the problem of the Royal Navy, even the most bellicose of the American war hawks had to face certain grim realities. Army Secretary Tompkins was working with the governors of the states to build coastal batteries, equipped with furnaces for heated shot and (in some cases) columbiads that could knock a hole in a ship’s hull below the waterline, dooming it. But even the best fort in the world could only persuade the enemy to attack somewhere else — and to fortify the entire length of the East and Gulf Coasts was impossible.
The prospect of defeating the British at sea was not much better. “We have not yet the resources to build or to crew a navy the equivalent of Britannia’s,” said President Adams. “To build a navy of the same sort as theirs, yet smaller and weaker, would be a recipe for disaster — not least because American ships overpowered and captured by the Royal Navy would soon be made part of it.”
Admiral Decatur disagreed, pointing out that just such a navy had served the nation well in years past. He cited his own part in America's triumph over the Barbary pirates as an example. He also pointed out the light, swift sailing vessels called “Baltimore clippers,” built by private traders, which could be enlisted in the Navy in wartime as commerce raiders.
To Naval Secretary Crowninshield, this was not enough. He believed the answer lay in maintaining and expanding the conventional fleet, but also in creating new squadrons of ships built specifically for defense.
He began by looking at Fulton’s war machine, the steam-powered Demologos, currently guarding New York Harbor. (A second such ship was under construction there, and similar vessels were being built in Washington, Boston, Norfolk and Philadelphia.) When its engines were working, it had the advantage over a sailing vessel in calm weather, in the unlikely event that the British attempted to attack in such weather. Unfortunately, it was not seaworthy, and was only suitable for harbor defense — closer to a floating battery than a true warship. (A floating battery, as Decatur sardonically but accurately said, combined “the indestructibility of a warship with the swiftness of a fort.”)
But the greatest weakness of the demologoi[1] was fire. Although they were capable of launching enough heated shot to destroy many ships-of-the-line, their 1.5-meter-thick wooden sides made them extremely vulnerable to a response in kind. According to U.S. intelligence, the British knew this and were planning accordingly, with smaller vessels built especially to handle heated shot. The problem Crowninshield faced was not unlike the one that confronted the Navy a century later, with the building of the first aerie ships[2] — that of how to defend a ship that could protect other vessels more easily than it could protect itself. The only answer was to replace some of the timber on the vessels’ sides with an equivalent weight of iron plate. This added considerably to the time and expense of construction — so much, in fact, that Crowninshield decided that after the five demologoi currently under construction were finished, no more would be built. And it still did not answer the question of what to do if the British invaded fifty kilometers down the coast from where a demologos was positioned…
Joseph Welcome, A History of the U.S. Navy
[1] The name for this class of vessel.
[2] Aircraft carriers
But when considering the problem of the Royal Navy, even the most bellicose of the American war hawks had to face certain grim realities. Army Secretary Tompkins was working with the governors of the states to build coastal batteries, equipped with furnaces for heated shot and (in some cases) columbiads that could knock a hole in a ship’s hull below the waterline, dooming it. But even the best fort in the world could only persuade the enemy to attack somewhere else — and to fortify the entire length of the East and Gulf Coasts was impossible.
The prospect of defeating the British at sea was not much better. “We have not yet the resources to build or to crew a navy the equivalent of Britannia’s,” said President Adams. “To build a navy of the same sort as theirs, yet smaller and weaker, would be a recipe for disaster — not least because American ships overpowered and captured by the Royal Navy would soon be made part of it.”
Admiral Decatur disagreed, pointing out that just such a navy had served the nation well in years past. He cited his own part in America's triumph over the Barbary pirates as an example. He also pointed out the light, swift sailing vessels called “Baltimore clippers,” built by private traders, which could be enlisted in the Navy in wartime as commerce raiders.
To Naval Secretary Crowninshield, this was not enough. He believed the answer lay in maintaining and expanding the conventional fleet, but also in creating new squadrons of ships built specifically for defense.
He began by looking at Fulton’s war machine, the steam-powered Demologos, currently guarding New York Harbor. (A second such ship was under construction there, and similar vessels were being built in Washington, Boston, Norfolk and Philadelphia.) When its engines were working, it had the advantage over a sailing vessel in calm weather, in the unlikely event that the British attempted to attack in such weather. Unfortunately, it was not seaworthy, and was only suitable for harbor defense — closer to a floating battery than a true warship. (A floating battery, as Decatur sardonically but accurately said, combined “the indestructibility of a warship with the swiftness of a fort.”)
But the greatest weakness of the demologoi[1] was fire. Although they were capable of launching enough heated shot to destroy many ships-of-the-line, their 1.5-meter-thick wooden sides made them extremely vulnerable to a response in kind. According to U.S. intelligence, the British knew this and were planning accordingly, with smaller vessels built especially to handle heated shot. The problem Crowninshield faced was not unlike the one that confronted the Navy a century later, with the building of the first aerie ships[2] — that of how to defend a ship that could protect other vessels more easily than it could protect itself. The only answer was to replace some of the timber on the vessels’ sides with an equivalent weight of iron plate. This added considerably to the time and expense of construction — so much, in fact, that Crowninshield decided that after the five demologoi currently under construction were finished, no more would be built. And it still did not answer the question of what to do if the British invaded fifty kilometers down the coast from where a demologos was positioned…
Joseph Welcome, A History of the U.S. Navy
[1] The name for this class of vessel.
[2] Aircraft carriers
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Hmm, the US navy is certainly going to get relevant a lot quicker then OTL.
say, what's the relationship between the Dead Roses and the French?
Actually, what's the public opinion in Louisiana towards the French?
say, what's the relationship between the Dead Roses and the French?
Actually, what's the public opinion in Louisiana towards the French?
Stolengood
Banned
So... what happens to Decatur and Oliver Hazard Perry in TTL's 1819 and '20? Better than OTL, I hope?
Free Lancer
Banned
Good update but two things.
I would like to know what the state of US and French relations are, and what is the status of the US army.
I would like to know what the state of US and French relations are, and what is the status of the US army.
Well, I can tell that, from everything I've read in historical accounts and dug up in my own genealogy, the better-off parts of society were fascinated, well-informed, and highly-opinionated about French politics and culture. OTL, the animosity between those who fell in the legitimist, orleanist or napoleonic camps was legendary and sometimes erupted in violence, both individual in the form of duels as well as brawls and small-scale street riots.
This doesn't mean, though, that people were standing on the levee waiting for the lastest mailboat to arrive from Paris. A large majority of the Creoles in Louisiana by 1820 were already quite a few generations separated from the Metropole. My oldest ancestor arrived here in 1771 and lived long enough to meet the girl his grandson would eventually marry by the time he died in 1817. The Acadians' roots in North America tend to go back even further, often to the first half of the 1600s, and another significant protion of the Creole population are the descendants of people who first settled in Saint-Domingue.
To extrapolate from OTL to TTL, the legitimists and orleanists will generally favor team GB over France while the napoleonics celebrate the strenghtened position of France since Nappy returned from Elba. I can't image that foreign policy vis-à-vis Great Britain would be greatly effected by this internal discussion, though, since everyone knows which side their bread's buttered on. The vast majority of the movers and shakers in Louisiana society were prepared to side with Britain against the US in '15 (even OTL), and no matter how much they may hate the Limeys in their hearts, they hate the Caintucks who come down the river each fall even more.
Thanks for giving me a reason to turn off the Isaac coverage for a few minutes
Lycaon pictus
Donor
The U.S. and France are still allies. Now that Europe is at peace and the French army has started downsizing, some veteran French officers have moved to America and gotten jobs teaching at Fort LeBoeuf and Ferry Farm. (When it comes to building a military academy, the bricks and mortar are the easy part. The hard part is finding the right teachers.)
The Dead Roses are paying close attention to the Liberal Party in France, and the way it stays on top of the Conservatives and Jacobins. (Although, as mentioned before, the French system is a lot more incumbent-friendly than the American system, as long as the incumbents aren't completely asleep.)
Complicated. It's the mother country, the wellspring of French culture… but it's also on the wrong side. Once again, I find myself indebted to bm79's expert opinion. (And stay safe, please.)
So... what happens to Decatur and Oliver Hazard Perry in TTL's 1819 and '20? Better than OTL, I hope?
Stephen Decatur is back in Sinepuxent, supervising the construction and staffing of the U.S. Naval Academy. James Barron serves on the Board of Navy Commissioners, so they are well out of each others' way. Oliver Hazard Perry fought at the Battle of the Brewster Islands and currently commands the Boston squadron of the U.S. Navy.
The Army has reached its goal of 30,000 men, although its officer corps is still building up to where Adams and Tompkins want it to be. It isn't idle even in peacetime — its biggest jobs right now are building and manning the coastal defenses, preparing topographic maps for the canal companies and protecting settlers on the far side of the Mississippi. (Given a bigger army and better transportation infrastructure, I'm afraid the Indian wars are going to be even more one-sided than IOTL.)
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Lycaon pictus
Donor
...my goodness, I just remember; does Frankenstein get written in this TL?
It came from a meeting in Geneva — near the French border, but not a serious front line of the fighting. (Most of the fighting in 1816 was in the Low Countries and Italy.) The Shelleys could have gotten there and back again safely by way of the Germanies. So I'll say yeah. (If the Shelleys had stuck around in Switzerland much longer, they could have met some Italian refugees who would have told them real horror stories.)
Stolengood
Banned
Well, if I recall correctly, it was Byron who proposed the "let's write ghost stories" idea, on account of the miserable weather that year.
As for Oliver Hazard Perry, there is his feud with Jesse Elliott to take into account, considering OTL:
His death was entirely a result of trying to squelch the feud.
Lycaon pictus
Donor
For such a small navy, the U.S. Navy at this point sure had a lot of top commanders who didn't play well with others.
ITTL, Perry's service against the British outside Boston Harbor should give him a little more influence than he got fighting the Barbary pirates. Probably Elliott will be the one who gets sent on important assignments far, far away.
ITTL, Perry's service against the British outside Boston Harbor should give him a little more influence than he got fighting the Barbary pirates. Probably Elliott will be the one who gets sent on important assignments far, far away.
Clever Men (4)
Lycaon pictus
Donor
Now, meet the Class of 1819:
Infante Carlos Francisco, son of the Infante Carlos of Spain and Maria Francisca of Portugal, born Jan. 2 in Lima, capital of the Viceroyalty of South America (or, as his father insists we call it, the Most Holy Viceroyalty of South America). His birth will put a little more pressure on Ferdinand VII to produce a son. Sadly, the queen had a miscarriage this year.
Frederick James Kempt, born Jan. 30 in Palermo, illegitimate son of General Sir James Kempt.[1] To his dying day Kempt does not reveal the name of the Sicilian woman who died giving birth to his son, but he does acknowledge the child and make provision for his upbringing shortly before his transfer to Halifax.
William Meriwether Shannon, born May 12 in Lexington, Ky., son of George and Ruth Shannon. His father will try to persuade him to take an interest in the study of law, but William will prefer the outdoors.
Prince Victor Alexander of Hanover, born June 30 in Hanover, son of Prince William Duke of Clarence and viceroy of Hanover, and Victoria of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld. He will learn to read and write in both English and German at the age of three.
Michael Todd, born July 3 in Frankfort, Ky., son of Charles Stewart and Letitia Todd. Although the son of the Kentucky Secretary of State, Michael’s primary interest will be the raising of horses. He and Will Shannon will meet at school, and, finding themselves similarly matched in age and interests, will become best frenemies and compete with each other at every opportunity.
Xien Delun, born September 22 in Beijing, son of a prominent merchant banker. He will prove an excellent student, and in 1835 he will accompany more senior scholars on a journey to Canton to assist a delegation of European scholars in translating the great works of Chinese history.
Jeanne-Louise Bertin, born December 1 in Paris, second of the four daughters of Édouard and Sarah Bertin. The Bertin marriage is the culmination of one of the most remarkable romances in French history — a woman kidnapped from Africa and exhibited in Paris as a scientific curiosity on account of the size of her rump, and the art student who was assigned the task of drawing her accurately and astounded the world by falling in love with her. All the Bertin girls will grow up surrounded by the community of artists and scientists and will try their hands at various cultural pursuits, but Jeanne-Louise will distinguish herself as a singer.
[1] According to one source I’ve found, this guy had a “passion for road-making and pretty women.” In Sicily, they didn’t put him in charge of a road crew, so…
Infante Carlos Francisco, son of the Infante Carlos of Spain and Maria Francisca of Portugal, born Jan. 2 in Lima, capital of the Viceroyalty of South America (or, as his father insists we call it, the Most Holy Viceroyalty of South America). His birth will put a little more pressure on Ferdinand VII to produce a son. Sadly, the queen had a miscarriage this year.
Frederick James Kempt, born Jan. 30 in Palermo, illegitimate son of General Sir James Kempt.[1] To his dying day Kempt does not reveal the name of the Sicilian woman who died giving birth to his son, but he does acknowledge the child and make provision for his upbringing shortly before his transfer to Halifax.
William Meriwether Shannon, born May 12 in Lexington, Ky., son of George and Ruth Shannon. His father will try to persuade him to take an interest in the study of law, but William will prefer the outdoors.
Prince Victor Alexander of Hanover, born June 30 in Hanover, son of Prince William Duke of Clarence and viceroy of Hanover, and Victoria of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld. He will learn to read and write in both English and German at the age of three.
Michael Todd, born July 3 in Frankfort, Ky., son of Charles Stewart and Letitia Todd. Although the son of the Kentucky Secretary of State, Michael’s primary interest will be the raising of horses. He and Will Shannon will meet at school, and, finding themselves similarly matched in age and interests, will become best frenemies and compete with each other at every opportunity.
Xien Delun, born September 22 in Beijing, son of a prominent merchant banker. He will prove an excellent student, and in 1835 he will accompany more senior scholars on a journey to Canton to assist a delegation of European scholars in translating the great works of Chinese history.
Jeanne-Louise Bertin, born December 1 in Paris, second of the four daughters of Édouard and Sarah Bertin. The Bertin marriage is the culmination of one of the most remarkable romances in French history — a woman kidnapped from Africa and exhibited in Paris as a scientific curiosity on account of the size of her rump, and the art student who was assigned the task of drawing her accurately and astounded the world by falling in love with her. All the Bertin girls will grow up surrounded by the community of artists and scientists and will try their hands at various cultural pursuits, but Jeanne-Louise will distinguish herself as a singer.
[1] According to one source I’ve found, this guy had a “passion for road-making and pretty women.” In Sicily, they didn’t put him in charge of a road crew, so…
It seems that the personal-union between Great Britain and Hanover will last at least one generation longer.
Lycaon pictus
Donor
My understanding of British succession law is that Charlotte Augusta is still the heir. Pushing her aside in favor of an infant younger than her own son would be (to put it mildly) controversial.
Stolengood
Banned
People in those times had rather... shall we say, inflated senses of "honor".For such a small navy, the U.S. Navy at this point sure had a lot of top commanders who didn't play well with others.
Well, only you can make it so... Number One!
Not an ancestor of this Michael Todd, is he?
Awwww... you gave Saartje Baartman a happy ending!
Even if it is a weensy bit implausible, considering race relations of that era in Europe... Also... are we finished 1819 already? You breezed through it quick!
Lycaon pictus
Donor
Awwww... you gave Saartje Baartman a happy ending!
Well, it wasn't unheard of. (William Davidson, for instance.)
Also... are we finished 1819 already? You breezed through it quick!
Well, it wasn't that eventful a year… although I do have one more post for it. It may take a little while, but it will be big.
Stolengood
Banned
Right... but that was Britain, not France, and Baartman was seen as a "brute native". I hope Msr. Bertin saw something more than that in her... and I would've liked to read your account of it.
Ooh... may I ask what it will be on?