Did I understand the status of Rome correctly - while the rest of the Papal States became part of Italy, Rome is technically a separate country? As you mentioned the parallel of San Marino - IOTL, its representation in foreign policy is handled by Italy. Is it the same with Rome? Is there the same separation between Holy See (the Pope as sovereign) and territorial state (Vatican City resp. Rome) ITTL?

The answer to all these questions is yes.

What happened to all those Italian princes, especially those that weren't Habsburgs?

The heads of Parma, Modena, Lucca et cetera have fled to Spain, Sicily or Austria. A lot of the minor nobility, however, joined the rebellion and have landed on their feet. (The Cavours, for example, are doing fine.)


According to the scraps of information I've managed to find online, there was no question about Hungerford producing heirs; he was gay:

Congratulations, you've made the 500th post!:D Any idea what Hungerford died of?

(Even if the U.S. doesn't get the money, there's hope. J.Q. Adams was a great promoter of education and science IOTL. For example, his first message to Congress, he lamented that there were more than 130 observatories in Europe and not one in America. He called them "lighthouses of the skies," which everybody in Congress thought was hilarious. ITTL, he may find a way to set a little money aside for the pursuit of knowledge.)

I consider myself a fairly good writer; I'd be happy to help craft "excerpts" from Italy Reborn. :)

Since Italy Reborn is supposed to be a collaborative work, I might even take you up on that.
 
The answer to all these questions is yes.
Additional question - so the Holy See has its own foreign policy, while Rome is represented by Italy? What if there are differences between the Pope and Italy, e.g., Italy wants to start or join a war and the Pope doesn't? San Marino is small enough to ignore whether it joins a war or not, but Rome is a bit bigger. ;)
Also, are there any participatory elements in Rome (a parliament, elected officials)? In OTL's Vatican city that is not necessary, as most of its citizens are Church dignitaries or employees, but that's not true for Rome.
 

Stolengood

Banned
Congratulations, you've made the 500th post!:D Any idea what Hungerford died of?
Alas, no; I can't find any information on that. I'm assuming, however, that since it was not noted as being sudden, it must've been some sort of consumptive disease (as was the case for most natural Italian deaths, I believe)... and, since this is not OTL, he may well die of TB in Skunk-world. :D

Now, this is interesting:

In 1835 when Henry James Hungerford died without an heir, his mother, Mary Ann de la Batut, claimed her right to the Smithson estate, due to her previous marriage to Colonel Henry Louis Dickinson, half-brother of James Smithson and father of Henry James Hungerford. The British Courts allotted her an annual allowance until her death in 1861. Marie de la Batut's children from her second marriage had no blood or legal relationship to James Smithson; however, they joined with their spouses and children and persisted over the next few decades to claim various rights to the Smithson estate. George Henry, Emma Kirby, Marie, Charles, and Maurice all contacted the Smithsonian Institution with stories, genealogies, and bargains attempting to convince the Smithsonian administration of their need for and right to the money.

Deemed invalid, and, looking through Richard Rush's orignal letters as available in Google Books, it appears they tried to gum up the legal works in the British Chancery Courts without success. Might be as interesting to delve into here as the battles between Prinny and Caroline, even if we do know how it turns out... ;)

(Even if the U.S. doesn't get the money, there's hope. J.Q. Adams was a great promoter of education and science IOTL. For example, his first message to Congress, he lamented that there were more than 130 observatories in Europe and not one in America. He called them "lighthouses of the skies," which everybody in Congress thought was hilarious. ITTL, he may find a way to set a little money aside for the pursuit of knowledge.)
He actively encouraged it in OTL; depends on whether John Q. wants to go into Congress after his presidency ITTL, I think:
John Quincy Adams liked the idea of a Smithsonian Institution, however, and gathered congressional support for it during the spring of 1836. ... Debates ensued and the U. S. Treasury invested the money in Arkansas State Bonds. This investment disturbed John Quincy Adams. Despite their low interest rate, he realized the bonds were untouchable until 1860. Adams spent the last nine months of 1841 trying to access the money. Upon hearing Adams' complaint President John Tyler took action and forced the Treasury to provide the original amount of the bequest plus the appropriate interest on the bonds. In 1846 a final bill passed for the establishment of the Smithsonian Institution.

Since Italy Reborn is supposed to be a collaborative work, I might even take you up on that.
Well, PM me what you want "excerpted", and I'll do the best I can. :D
 
Additional question - so the Holy See has its own foreign policy, while Rome is represented by Italy? What if there are differences between the Pope and Italy, e.g., Italy wants to start or join a war and the Pope doesn't?

Then the job of Italian foreign minister (currently being held by this guy) becomes a lot more complicated.:)

Also, are there any participatory elements in Rome (a parliament, elected officials)? In OTL's Vatican city that is not necessary, as most of its citizens are Church dignitaries or employees, but that's not true for Rome.

A mayor and city council, which is elected by the people but can be dismissed by the pope. Suffrage isn't universal, but property requirements for voting are fairly low.
 
So, Ugo Foscolo doesn't go to Britain ITTL? Interesting... ;)

He stayed in Switzerland through the worst part of the war, then returned in late 1817.

You still haven't replied to my offer, though! :p

Well, I'm not sure yet if I'll even need the poetry. I have a general plan for how this goes, but a lot of details are still up in the air. By the way, the next update will be a continuation of the Prinny/Caroline/Brougham/Charlotte story arc.
 
Clever Men (1)
June 4, 1819
11:20 a.m.
Issy-les-Moulineux, just outside Paris

The streets were busy, full of noise and distractions. The wheels of the coach and the hooves of the horses rattled on the cobblestones. In short, unless Princess Caroline’s man Gaetan had better hearing than the average dog, he could not possibly have eavesdropped on a conversation held inside the coach while sitting in the driver’s seat.

All the same, Henry Brougham made a point of speaking circumspectly with his brother. Although the Prince Regent and the Cabinet had indeed been resolute in keeping Caroline away from British shores, no one had proposed the slightest impediment to the Broughams going on honeymoon in Paris. For the next two weeks, Henry and Margaret would be guests of the Princess at Château D’Issy. It wouldn’t do to be overheard gossiping about her.

“I received your letter of last March,” said Henry. “Tell me, can you prove what you wrote?” (What he had written was that in his opinion, Caroline and her majordomo were quite obviously lovers. Since he had been living in Paris and keeping an eye on the princess, Henry took his opinion seriously.) When his brother hesitated to speak, Henry added, “You can speak freely in front of Margaret — she is in on this secret.”

“This secret?” said Margaret playfully, leaning against Henry. “What secrets am I not in on?”

“Can I prove it?” said James, more seriously. “What manner of proof would you have?”

“For our purposes, it does not suffice to say ‘everyone knows’ or ‘nothing could be more obvious’,” said Henry. “Could you prove it in a court of law?”

“No,” said James, “only in the court of common sense.”

“Then let us be grateful that that court has no jurisdiction. And if you can’t prove it, I doubt any spy of the Prince Regent’s can prove it either.”

“Then why did she not call the Prime Minister’s bluff?” said James.

“She would have,” said Henry, “but I convinced her the time was not right — as indeed, I believe it is not.”

“Then why invite her at all?”

“And here we go,” said Margaret. James had just given his brother permission to expound upon his own cleverness.

“Because the point was never to get Caroline back into the country,” said Henry. “The point was to force the Prime Minister and his Cabinet to say in public what Sidmouth communicated to me in private. The point was to make them all stake out a position against her in the sight of the world… which they have now done. They’ve as good as told the whole nation that they’re terrified of this woman — or perhaps they’re nothing but Prinny’s personal manservants. Either way, these men who value the appearance of strength above all else now look weak in the sight of friend and foe alike.”

“And Caroline doesn’t?” said James.

“What if she does? That was also part of my plan. When the people see weakness in a man, they despise him for it. When they see weakness in a woman, they wish to defend her. Prinny and his pet Tories made a grave mistake the day they declared war on her.

“And the best part? They think they’ve won this round. Liverpool, Castlereagh, Sidmouth, Eldon — they all think Caroline is afraid, or else has a guilty conscience. I can’t wait to see what they do next.”

Margaret turned to her brother-in-law. “James,” she said, “tell the truth and shame the devil. This man I’ve gone and married — does he really plan all these things in advance? Or does he just sit and wait for his enemies to trip over their own feet, then leap up and shout ‘Exactly as planned!’”

“I’ve seen him do both,” said James, “but if you’re wondering which one he’s doing now, I can’t help you there. He’s always been too clever by half.”

“By half?” said Henry. “You wound me, brother. I aim to be too clever by at least 120%.”

“Well, are you clever enough to see that she’s using you?” said James. “Corn Laws, slavery, suffrage, rotten boroughs, habeas corpus, the truck system… do you really think any of these things keep her up at night? She only wants her throne.”

“That may or may not be true,” said Henry, “but any road, she will need our help to get it. And… like it or not, we are radicals. Having more than one member of the royal family on our side will reassure the timid that we are not Jacobins. It is therefore in our interest to see that she stays in the royal family.”

“Not to mention that Charlotte would never forgive you if you abandoned her mother,” said Margaret. Just at that moment, the coach stopped outside the chateau.

“You might very well think that, my dear,” said Henry, “but” — he said just as Gaetan opened the door — “I couldn’t possibly comment.”
 
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Stolengood

Banned
What? Where do you get that? I thought I made it clear he isn't.
Oh... well, the bit at the end, where it's mentioned that Charlotte would never forgive him for abandoning her mother, and he has to switch to "no comment" in the middle of the sentence (because Gaetan comes to open the door)... made me think he did. :(
 
Serves me right for dropping in a pop culture reference that hardly anybody is going to recognize.:eek:

I should add that if you've gotten the impression that Henry Brougham sees Caroline mainly as a club to hit the Tory establishment over the head with, you're absolutely right.
 
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Ireland, Germany, Poland… what happened in Italy has been noticed in a lot of places. I'll get to the effects in a later update.
 
Clever Men (2)
October 5, 1819
7:15 a.m.
Trafalgar, British Florida

It was nearly dawn. William Davidson had already breakfasted with his family (cornmeal, rice and yams) and was off to work. There was never a shortage of work in this town.

Well, hardly ever. Yesterday, thanks to some delays in the arrival of timber and brick, there had been barely nine hours’ worth of work to do building the port. That had given him more time to fix up the cabin. (Turning the place into a house fit for a family of seven was an ongoing project.)

Even at this early hour, the streets of Trafalgar were busy. And no wonder — most of the houses were in no better shape than Davidson’s. The streets were laid out in a sensible grid (except around the edges of town, so as not to provide a channel for hurricane winds) but were still mostly dirt, with only a few stretches of brick pavement to indicate the ambitions of Raffles and Lafon. Here and there, a big old live oak or hickory had been left standing for the sake of its shade — which was good, as this town did get dreadfully hot during the summer. Jamaica, where Davidson had been born, had been worse, but not much.

Looking across the street, Davidson saw that the city’s first Anglican church was nearly complete. Meanwhile, Trafalgar already had two Hindu temples, a mosque and something that was supposed to be a Catholic church — but from what he’d heard, a very strange one. (Skeptical about religion in general, Davidson had always thought of Catholics as more than usually superstitious, but he was fair-minded enough to acknowledge that he’d never heard of chickens or goats being sacrificed at St. Mary’s in Hampstead.)

But that was Trafalgar. In this town, the Seminole Indians from up north were already outnumbered by the Indian Indians from India. Then there were freedmen and escaped slaves from the North, Cubans, Haitians, Balinese and Jews… and even a few regular Britons.

And in another generation, not even those categories would fit everybody. Davidson knew of Provençal women, royalists from Marseilles, who had fled the restoration of Napoleon but hadn’t been able to get into Louisiana — the little republic had put limits on how many immigrants it could take in in any one year — and had ended up marrying Bengali or Keralan men. For that matter, he himself was a mulatto who had married a white widow with four children and had two children of his own by her. This was one of the very few places on this earth where a family like his wouldn’t be looked askance at… very often.

Davidson crossed the central boulevard, where the virgin forest between the two lanes had been left untouched (if you wanted a tree-lined avenue, that was about the easiest way in the world to get it) and found himself in a market where little trees were being sold. Tenant farmers, still trying to earn their way out of debt, were preparing orchards to grow oranges and lemons and limes and something called “lychees” — orchards that would stat bearing fruit some time in the next decade. This was a hopeful place.

The piers were always crowded, with everything from little boats from Angola[1], Bombay and Nyepore[2], to Royal Navy gunboats getting ready to hunt for slave ships. And, of course, the freighters bringing in the supplies the colony needed and taking out the bags of rice that were all it had to offer by way of export… at the moment.

Finally, he arrived at the unfinished East Pier Four. Only a few of his crew had made it here before him. The piles had been coated with tar and driven into place, and half the crosspieces were in place as well. The rest of the lumber had arrived last night. Now it was just a matter of carpentry. Lots and lots of carpentry.

* * *

1:30 p.m.
When the job was simple enough that everyone knew what needed doing, there was no excuse for the foreman not to get in there and swing a hammer with the rest. Davidson was so busy driving the last nail into place that he didn’t realize it was the last nail until he heard the cheering of his men behind him.

It was too early in the day for rum, so he treated his crew to a round of choo[3] at a Bengali tavern. On the way home to give his wife the rest of his pay, he stopped at the market and picked up a celebratory bottle of white Yadkin.

“How’d you get this wine so cheap?” said Davidson. Tariffs on American products were rather high.

“Ask me no questions, I tells you no lies,” said the wine-seller cheerfully.

Which was why Davidson was walking down the street with a bottle of contraband wine when the governor’s messenger caught up with him. Fortunately, life had taught him the art of appearing innocent.

* * *

2:30 p.m.
Davidson had never met Thomas Stamford Bingley Raffles. The governor was a clever-faced man in his late thirties. He looked over his steepled fingers, examining Davidson with no apparent sign of prejudice (although as Davidson well knew, there weren’t always apparent signs.)

“I received your application,” said Raffles. “The son of a colonial attorney general, educated in law and mathematics… your credentials are excellent. How it is you come to work as a common labourer?”

“I took the work I found, governor,” said Davidson. “This city needs workers more than it needs clerks or lawyers.” He hoped Raffles hadn’t inquired into his past too closely.

“I do have a clerical position in mind for you,” said Raffles, “but it may include more… adventurous duties as well. Mr. Davidson, how would you like to make this colony more secure, while at the same time working towards the freedom of your brothers and sisters?”[4]


[1] A community of Seminoles and escaped slaves in the Tampa Bay area (or the Hillsborough Bay area ITTL). IOTL, it was destroyed by a Coweta Creek war party in April of 1821 on the orders of Gen. Andrew Jackson. It was destroyed so thoroughly, in fact, that to this day archaeologists can’t pin down exactly where it was beyond “somewhere on the Manatee River.”
[2] OTL St. Petersburg and Riviera Bay.
[3] An alcoholic beverage brewed from rice.
[4] IOTL, William Davidson stayed in Great Britain, fell in with the wrong crowd and came to a bad end.
 

Stolengood

Banned
Hmmmm.... why are there Indians from India in 1819? OTL, they didn't start shipping them in until 1845; why so early, here? :confused:
 
Hmmmm.... why are there Indians from India in 1819? OTL, they didn't start shipping them in until 1845; why so early, here? :confused:

The peninsula of Florida was very lightly populated in the early 19th century. Heat, malaria and alligators made it less attractive to immigrants from Europe. Raffles needed a work force for his colony, and, being a former East India Company man, Indians and Southeast Asians were the first people he thought of. He goes into a little more detail about his plans here.
 

Stolengood

Banned
The peninsula of Florida was very lightly populated in the early 19th century. Heat, malaria and alligators made it less attractive to immigrants from Europe. Raffles needed a work force for his colony, and, being a former East India Company man, Indians and Southeast Asians were the first people he thought of. He goes into a little more detail about his plans here.
Ahhh... sorry; been a while since I've read that section. :eek:

Great update, by the way... but, if TTL's William Davidson manages to avoid the Cato Street plot, what happens to it ITTL? Does it succeed? :eek:
 
The circumstances that IOTL gave rise to the Cato Street Conspiracy in 1820 are a little different here. For one thing, the Peterloo Massacre hasn't happened.

See, IOTL (I apologize if you already know all this) when the Napoleonic Wars came to a sudden end, it started a recession. A lot of soldiers and sailors went back home and entered the work force while at the same time the government's need for everything from ammunition and uniforms to ships' biscuit and sailcloth went way down. The economy went into a slump that lasted for years and was pretty close to the bottom by 1819. Meanwhile, the Corn Law was keeping the price of bread high for anyone who wasn't personally growing wheat, and the landowning requirements for voting and the misallocation of seats in Parliament meant that the urban poor had no recourse within the system. So there were mass demonstrations, some of them very large and well-organized (rehearsed, even). The authorities were all like "ZOMG TEH JACOBINS ARE COMING TO CHOP OFF ALL THE HEADS" and sent in the army, and, well…

ITTL, the wars lasted longer and came to a slower end, so the economy is in a more gradual decline. But there is already dissatisfaction and the beginnings of unrest, and things will get worse before they get better.
 
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