He lost his Prime Ministership because of the disintergration of his party in Canberra. He could no longer control the Parliament and when the Opposition called for a vote of no confidence, his Government failed the vote. The result was an election which the ALP won. Menzies problem was that he spent too long overseas in the UK, toying with standing against Churchill there...
Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
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Derek Pullem
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There have been considerably more battles at Thermopylae than two - wiki alone lists eight. Basically you'd be an idiot not to defend it if you are defending Greece.
Must be one of the bloodiest corners of Europe!
So, if I understand it correctly, the order for the 1st AB to depart for the Thermopylae Line is on April 20th?
AFAIK the 1st AB departed for Thermopylae at April 17th.
The map is from "The Swastika over the Acropolis".
In OTL Germans were spotted in Saint Dimitrios at 18,00 on April 17th. Now they are basically 3 days behind in clearing the pass. It seems to me that judging by OTL, the Germans will arrive at Kalabaka at April 22nd. The Greeks have 4 nights in total to send troops via rail south. I sincerely doubt they will send trains all the way to Athens. What seems more logical, is to send trains in the Lianokladi Station and then the trains brought forward from Peloponnese to transport the men to Athens. This way a train may transverse the Kalabaka-Lianokladi route twice a night. I am not sure of the carrying capacity of the network in Thessaly. Perhaps @Lascaris knows better. However, judging by the OTL mobilization, it seems to me that the network had a lift capacity of at least a single division per day. And during the mobilization trains were operating at night to avoid interdiction by air. It is also worth mentioning, that in the mobilization the trains were carrying all the equipment and animals of an infantry division, while now they just get the men away.
So, if I guess correctly, the trains that loaded the V "Cretan" Division, wouldn't go to Athens but they would be back the same night to take more men from Kalabaka to Lianokladi. Basically leapfrogging by train.
Yeah but we know exactly which battle everyone will compare it to.
Although strangely, only three of those battles have taken place in the last two millenia. Four actually took place within about 200 years.
Still, this one should go a little better for the Allies.
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At the time, the railway from Kalabaka to Palaiofarsalos was narrow gauge so transfer onto standard gauge would have been essential. Kalabaka was only converted to standard gauge in 2001. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaiofarsalos–Kalambaka_railway ).
You are absolutely right! So, I modify my comment on that the most productive solution would be to use the narrow gauge to move 80km to the Palaeofarsalos Station, then send the trains back and get the soldiers via the standard gauge to Lianokladi or Athens.
It might be horrible to think of, but the only data I have in train capacity of the era are the Holocaust Trains. The SS had calculated 50 people per car for a total of 2,500. Of course they overloaded the trains 200% that number. Let's make it 40 people per car, as they are evacuating men and not equipment.
With trains running mostly at night, let's say 10 trains per night. There are 20,000 men per night. An evacuation of 4 nights results at a minimum of 80,000 men. If trains are loaded with 2,500 men there would be 100,000 men saved. So, I guess the actual number may be between the two estimations. Although in a scenario such as the one we examine, I believe the men will be very eager to get packed as livestock if they are to be moved south to safety.
I really do hope the jewish regiments will be evacuated so as to be saved from their gruesome fate.
Ok to check the right source, Papagos, line capacity was 20 trains of 35 wagons each daily and during the war 2525 such trains moved 359,673,800 km-tons. 35 wagons so average 1400-1750 men per train, 28-35,000 men per day maximum...
The Greek Army bought 325 trucks in 1936-1940 and 390 in 1929-1935. After the mobilization they commandeered civilian trucks and buses as well, since the military ones were too few. I have no idea what percentage remained vailable in April 1941...
@Lascaris thank you for the info on both lorries and trains! Especially for quoting Papagos, after all you cannot give more precise information than the OTL General Staff.
Lascaris, I am also under the impression that the remnants of the XII and XX Divisions were retreating with the Commonwealth. I remember reading of some of their men being in Crete. Also the Dodecanese Battalion that formed in Egypt seem to have had men from the Greek Campaign Dodecanese Regiment. The Dodecanesians there are listed separately from the local Egyptiotes. Perhaps the XII and XX remnants in TTL are larger than in OTL. What is your take?
If that is the case, then these men are excluded from those evacuating from the Kalabaka railhead as they are retreating using their own and mostly Commonwealth motor transport.
But elements of the Epirus Field Army Section (EFAS) could theoretically march to another direction since they gained precious time: to ports. During the war, part of the 1st Army Corps (II, III, VIII) supply came from these small ports, so coastal shipping existed. The men of the VIII Division were locals from Epirus so when the everything is collapsing they will just go home- there is no real incentive to escape to southern Greece. However, the men of the II and III divisions were from southern Greece so they had incentive to brave sailing without escorts in small ships or march overland to cross to Peloponnese. A few of them may end up in Crete. After all, the men of the V division had reached Peloponnese by the 1st week of May, even though they started from a more northern point and had to stop for a couple days to surrender their weapons.
It will depend on how long Thermopylae Line lasts. If for example it can hold for 4 days and the accumulated additional days mean that Germans invade Peloponnese at May 1st or 2nd, then some veterans can be saved this way. Certainly not the equivalent of a division, but of a few battalions.
Lascaris, I am also under the impression that the remnants of the XII and XX Divisions were retreating with the Commonwealth. I remember reading of some of their men being in Crete. Also the Dodecanese Battalion that formed in Egypt seem to have had men from the Greek Campaign Dodecanese Regiment. The Dodecanesians there are listed separately from the local Egyptiotes. Perhaps the XII and XX remnants in TTL are larger than in OTL. What is your take?
If that is the case, then these men are excluded from those evacuating from the Kalabaka railhead as they are retreating using their own and mostly Commonwealth motor transport.
I doubt they could march via the Thessalian Plain. They had already marched a long way already. It will have to be leapfrogging via trains or the lorries Lascaris' mentioned.
But elements of the Epirus Field Army Section (EFAS) could theoretically march to another direction since they gained precious time: to ports. During the war, part of the 1st Army Corps (II, III, VIII) supply came from these small ports, so coastal shipping existed. The men of the VIII Division were locals from Epirus so when the everything is collapsing they will just go home- there is no real incentive to escape to southern Greece. However, the men of the II and III divisions were from southern Greece so they had incentive to brave sailing without escorts in small ships or march overland to cross to Peloponnese. A few of them may end up in Crete. After all, the men of the V division had reached Peloponnese by the 1st week of May, even though they started from a more northern point and had to stop for a couple days to surrender their weapons.
It will depend on how long Thermopylae Line lasts. If for example it can hold for 4 days and the accumulated additional days mean that Germans invade Peloponnese at May 1st or 2nd, then some veterans can be saved this way. Certainly not the equivalent of a division, but of a few battalions.
Unlikely IMO. They can delay and bloody the Germans, but not stop them for too long. Besides, unless the Allies are particularly well organized, the Germans will force a crossing at Patras soon enough, making the whole point moot.
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