Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

[marathag]

I read somewhere that it had all to do with the profit margin of Nuffield, he didn't had to pay a royalty for it, If he used a better engine from an different company, his profit went down.

Got a warehouse full of leftover WWI Libertys, still in crates, for scrap weight price, and all the drawings and licenses to continued production.
Those engines were the MkI, modified for Tank use, with later Marks improved slightly, no major improvements, however

 

[MarcH]

Yeah, but the cumulative effects of having the Valiant, in North Africa is likely to change the course of events on the front away from OTL. Having Valiants means that, even if Rommel is sent over (given he bore the brunt of the Battle of Arras, his popularity might well be tainted, seeing him passed over), the Battle of Breda is likely to be much heavier, slowing the Germans down significantly in the drive eastward. Following that, Operation Brevity might well actually succeed, overing the way for a much earlier retreat by Rommel.

In addition, with LMS producing Valiants rather than Covenanters, Britain will have more tanks available to send overseas, so they might have enough to hold onto Crete (mainland Greece will be lost one way or another), plus, might well be able to send some (probably the Matildas) to Singapore, which, if available in numbers, is going to upset the Japanese something fierce.

So yeah, better tanks won't change the Battle of the Atlantic, but better tanks, in greater numbers is likely to have significant effects regardless.

Potential for far larger butterflies than that.

 

[MattII]

Potential for far larger butterflies than that.

Probably, but those were the immediate ones I could think of.

 

[Rickshaw]

With any other poweplant than the Liberty would have taken care of most of it. Besides poor filters, had the cooling fan issues, leaking of both coolant and oil, and fair number of other issues
Note that the Centaur was still poo for reliability, with the best version of Lord Nuffield's Liberty in it

And yet, the British managed to overcome all those problems and made them work quite well as gun tractors in 1944-45. The Argentines felt they had a good enough hand on them to convert them into SP Guns. All powered by, guess what? The much maligned Liberty engine. It seems they fixed it's cooling problems. Funny that, hey?

 

[MattII]

And yet, the British managed to overcome all those problems and made them work quite well as gun tractors in 1944-45. The Argentines felt they had a good enough hand on them to convert them into SP Guns. All powered by, guess what? The much maligned Liberty engine. It seems they fixed it's cooling problems. Funny that, hey?

More like they stuck them in roles where they wouldn't need to drive their engines too hard.

 

[Rickshaw]

More like they stuck them in roles where they wouldn't need to drive their engines too hard.

Immaterial. Their engines worked even harder perhaps. Gun tractors don't have an easy time of it. Whether a tractor driver or a tank driver, the vehicle is invariably driven equally as hard.

 

[MattII]

Immaterial. Their engines worked even harder perhaps. Gun tractors don't have an easy time of it. Whether a tractor driver or a tank driver, the vehicle is invariably driven equally as hard.

Check again. Some of the Crusaders got converted to gun tractors, but I can't find any evidence a single Centaur ever did.

 

[Rickshaw]

Check again. Some of the Crusaders got converted to gun tractors, but I can't find any evidence a single Centaur ever did.

Centaurs became dozers. Dozers worked harder than tanks generally. I never implied that the Centaur was converted to a gun tractor. You mentioned problems with the Crusader because of their Liberty engines.

 

[MattII]

Centaurs became dozers. Dozers worked harder than tanks generally. I never implied that the Centaur was converted to a gun tractor. You mentioned problems with the Crusader because of their Liberty engines.

You quoted a post (#3648) where the only tank mentioned was the Centaur. Also, the artillery tractor version of the Crusader got new, taller bodies which meant more room for water pumps and such. Oh, and I wasn't the one complaining about the Crusader, I simply pointed out that by the time the A27 specification came along that the Liberty was a lame duck engine.

 

[Rickshaw]

You quoted a post (#3648) where the only tank mentioned was the Centaur. Also, the artillery tractor version of the Crusader got new, taller bodies which meant more room for water pumps and such. Oh, and I wasn't the one complaining about the Crusader, I simply pointed out that by the time the A27 specification came along that the Liberty was a lame duck engine.

You were quoting Peg Leg Pom's post which was dealing exclusively with Crusader's problems. Your comment about Centaurs was just at the end of your post.

 

[MattII]

You were quoting Peg Leg Pom's post which was dealing exclusively with Crusader's problems. Your comment about Centaurs was just at the end of your post.

That was marathag's post, not mine. Also the artillery tractor had a taller body, and so more room for the cooling system. It's not the same as when they fitted it in the tank.

 

[sbroders27]

Would not the greater butterflies be potentially (I emphasise) in the following:-

1) The extra time in France means more Allied (especially French soldiers) end up in Britain.
2) At best, no Battle of Britain, at worst heavier Luftwaffe casualties due to a stronger RAF and weaker Luftwaffe (some great discussions about that earlier).
3) Given the greater French presence on Britain, Somerville is given more freedom of action / time at Mers El Kebir.
4) Enough modifued A12s and Valiants around to make Compass the curbstop that reaches Tripoli.
5) Enough armour in theatre to hold Crete.
6) Liberation of French North Africa and return of France to the fight in 1941 (especially if as previous posters theorised, there might be no Rommel)?

 

[dmg86]

Most of the French soldiers returned to France OTL.

 

[Llewwyy]

There are still a lot of ways things can go. The North Africa campaign could still be a long one because when Rommel attacked the British they were at the end of a long supply line, lost half their stuff for Crete and were in dire need of equipment refits. The other side of that arguement is that if the Germans get enough of a pasting in France, they may not have enough stuff for the Africa Korps. Not enough trucks, tanks, artillery or supplies.

 

[Rickshaw]

That was marathag's post, not mine. Also the artillery tractor had a taller body, and so more room for the cooling system. It's not the same as when they fitted it in the tank.

Actually, the engine deck remained exactly the same between the tank and the gun tractor. The difference was in the PTO to the cooling fans and the change in the airfilters. The taller body was to accomodate the crew and the ammunition for the gun they were towing.

 

[MattII]

Would not the greater butterflies be potentially (I emphasise) in the following:-

1) The extra time in France means more Allied (especially French soldiers) end up in Britain.
2) At best, no Battle of Britain, at worst heavier Luftwaffe casualties due to a stronger RAF and weaker Luftwaffe (some great discussions about that earlier).
3) Given the greater French presence on Britain, Somerville is given more freedom of action / time at Mers El Kebir.
4) Enough modifued A12s and Valiants around to make Compass the curbstop that reaches Tripoli.
5) Enough armour in theatre to hold Crete.
6) Liberation of French North Africa and return of France to the fight in 1941 (especially if as previous posters theorised, there might be no Rommel)?

1) Not very many more I shouldn't think.
2) As was explained to me, the Battle of Britain was more than just the attempt to suppress the RAF, so it still goes ahead.
3) Possibly, though I'm not sure it would have a significant effect on the outcome.
4) Definitely not. They might get as far as Sirte, but I doubt they'd have the logistics to get any further.
5) Likely.
6) Doubtful IMO.

Assuming Rommel still leads Operation Sonnenblume, the first potential change comes at El Agheila and/or Mersa Brega. If the British can hold the Germans off there, they effectively blunt Rommel's eastward drive, which will completely change how things go compared to OTL.

There are still a lot of ways things can go. The North Africa campaign could still be a long one because when Rommel attacked the British they were at the end of a long supply line, lost half their stuff for Crete and were in dire need of equipment refits. The other side of that arguement is that if the Germans get enough of a pasting in France, they may not have enough stuff for the Africa Korps. Not enough trucks, tanks, artillery or supplies.

Well here things are different for several reasons:
1) The Valiant replaced the Valentine, and, mixing Infantry Tank armour with Cruiser Tank speed, is a much better tank for it.
2) The Valiant has started production several months earlier than the OTL Valentine did, so probably a few hundred more at least are available.
3) LMS will be producing Valiants, not Covenanters, so production will be even higher, especially if they start a few months earlier, since the Valiant is a proven working design.

I think that will give the British the resources they need to both hold Crete, and also force Rommel back. That will significantly improve the British position, maybe even enough to allow them to shift forces (including tanks) East to blunt the Japanese offensive in Malaya.

Actually, the engine deck remained exactly the same between the tank and the gun tractor. The difference was in the PTO to the cooling fans and the change in the airfilters. The taller body was to accomodate the crew and the ammunition for the gun they were towing.

So they changed the air filters and fans, which kind of makes my point that it's not built the same as the tank, so it's not fair to compare it.

 

[yulzari]

Let us not overdo the effect of Valiants in NA. They will perform better than the OTL tanks certainly, but, as Montgomery deduced, any advance across such distances with limited infrastructure requires them to be limited to the distance and size that the logistics can support. Valiants will still need a better tail.

 

[MattII]

Let us not overdo the effect of Valiants in NA. They will perform better than the OTL tanks certainly, but, as Montgomery deduced, any advance across such distances with limited infrastructure requires them to be limited to the distance and size that the logistics can support. Valiants will still need a better tail.

Agreed. However, you could make the case of, would you rather have 12 Crusaders at Mersa Brega when the Germans come, or 6 Valiants. Personally, I'd rather go for the Valiants, since they can shrug off any calibre less than a long 50mm.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Would not the greater butterflies be potentially (I emphasise) in the following:-

1) The extra time in France means more Allied (especially French soldiers) end up in Britain.
2) At best, no Battle of Britain, at worst heavier Luftwaffe casualties due to a stronger RAF and weaker Luftwaffe (some great discussions about that earlier).
3) Given the greater French presence on Britain, Somerville is given more freedom of action / time at Mers El Kebir.
4) Enough modifued A12s and Valiants around to make Compass the curbstop that reaches Tripoli.
5) Enough armour in theatre to hold Crete.
6) Liberation of French North Africa and return of France to the fight in 1941 (especially if as previous posters theorised, there might be no Rommel)?

My take on these:

1. Very marginal - even if they do, most will likely to returned to France to fight with BEF 2 as per OTL. The dnager is that any greater success at Dunkirk will just mean more troops fed into the Battle for France in June to be captured in Normandy
2. Can't see an impact on BoB at all (unless France does not fall - which it will).
3. As per 1, the greater presence is marginal. Mers el Kebir might be impacted by a slightly better showing of the BEF but most likely goes as per oTL. TBH there are plenty of potential butterflies around Mers el Kebir that could occur that are independent of a slightly better show in France.
4. A12s and Valiants still get worn out just as A9, A10 and A13 do - which was the main reason for the halt to Compass along with the need to support the intervention in Greece.
5. Most of the armor sent to Greece was lost so to provide Crete with more tanks you need to somehow increase the number of tanks (which Alan hasn't done to date) or prevent as many from being sent. But if they weren't sent to Greece then they had a role to play in the desert. Better tanks doesn't hold Crete unless the british decide not to support mainland Greece which Churchill believed was a moral imperative.
6. Only if Italian North Africa is lost in 1941 which would require no Greece and more tanks to the Western Desert Force.

 

[MattII]

Most of the armor sent to Greece was lost so to provide Crete with more tanks you need to somehow increase the number of tanks (which Alan hasn't done to date) or prevent as many from being sent. But if they weren't sent to Greece then they had a role to play in the desert. Better tanks doesn't hold Crete unless the british decide not to support mainland Greece which Churchill believed was a moral imperative.

Actually, more tanks will be in play, as the Valiant started production in February 1940, rather than the middle of the year, plus LMS is producing Valiants, rather than struggling with Covenanters (which, according to this site, didn't start serious production until 1941), so that's another company that's going to be months ahead on production over OTL.

Only if Italian North Africa is lost in 1941 which would require no Greece and more tanks to the Western Desert Force.

Depends who (if anyone) the Germans send over (someone other than Rommel might not attack). And even if they do attack, having Valentines at El Agheila and Brega might stop the German advance.