Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

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Triune Kingdom

I am very happy that one of my threads inspired somebody to such a degree that they are willing to devote the time and effort needed to actually write a TL!!!

Great work so far, I very much enjoyed what has been written so far, and I am eagerly waiting for more! Thread most definitely watched!

While Matilda II was not a bad tank, especially by 40/41 period, its complicated manufacturing process and high price were not ideal. Valentine on the other hand, especially with it having the potential to be futher upgraded is a much better choice, and would certainly be present in much greater numbers then Matilda II ever was once war starts.

So, it is likely that Valentine ITTL arrives in a somewhat similar form to its Mk.II variant, a three man turret from the start, a more powerful engine, and a variety of little kinks and problems ironed out earlier then IOTL. It does not solve numerous underlying problems British face in regards to tank use and tactics, but it still does help.

Once again, great work, keep it up!
 

allanpcameron

Donor
Triune Kingdom said:
I am very happy that one of my threads inspired somebody to such a degree that they are willing to devote the time and effort needed to actually write a TL!!!

Great work so far, I very much enjoyed what has been written so far, and I am eagerly waiting for more! Thread most definitely watched!

While Matilda II was not a bad tank, especially by 40/41 period, its complicated manufacturing process and high price were not ideal. Valentine on the other hand, especially with it having the potential to be futher upgraded is a much better choice, and would certainly be present in much greater numbers then Matilda II ever was once war starts.

So, it is likely that Valentine ITTL arrives in a somewhat similar form to its Mk.II variant, a three man turret from the start, a more powerful engine, and a variety of little kinks and problems ironed out earlier then IOTL. It does not solve numerous underlying problems British face in regards to tank use and tactics, but it still does help.

Once again, great work, keep it up!
Click to expand...
Cheers.
One of my regrets in Ship Shape is the way I dealt with British tanks, it is particularly overly optimistic.
It is a real temptation here to mess about more than the POD allows, so I'm trying to be fairly realistic, Carden can really only influence Vickers tanks.
What strikes me is that a better designed Valentine could be the British equivalent of at least the Panzer III, if not the Pz IV, i.e. a tank that could develop as the war goes on.
But that needs a good engine, and at some point the ability to go beyond the size limits of the British railway system.

One of the problems to keep in mind is that it won't be called the Valentine in this time line.
Allan
 

ArtosStark

allanpcameron said:
Cheers.
One of my regrets in Ship Shape is the way I dealt with British tanks, it is particularly overly optimistic.
It is a real temptation here to mess about more than the POD allows, so I'm trying to be fairly realistic, Carden can really only influence Vickers tanks.
What strikes me is that a better designed Valentine could be the British equivalent of at least the Panzer III, if not the Pz IV, i.e. a tank that could develop as the war goes on.
But that needs a good engine, and at some point the ability to go beyond the size limits of the British railway system.

One of the problems to keep in mind is that it won't be called the Valentine in this time line.
Allan
Click to expand...

Valiant maybe?
 

naraic

Keeping an eye on the export trade can be a great way to get some scale production in peacetime and to earn money.

The vickers 6 ton tanks (153 built by Vickers 12,000 built on license by other powers) and the Carden Lloyd Tankette (450 built, 325 for domestic use 125 for export copied by 5 countries (6400 built) some with license and some changed enough not to need a license).

The British tank industry seemed to forget the word export in the mid 1930s.
 

naraic

Peg Leg Pom said:
Not quite, the Valentine design was started as an export tank.
Click to expand...
Fair. I suppose it would be more accurate to say they seemed to have forgotten that they could design for the export market after 1928 as designs from 1927/1928 were exported up until 1935 or so.
 

Marquis

As good as better tanks would be, what would be FAR more useful would be streamlined mass production with widespread butterflies.
 

MattII

Spencersj345.346 said:
I wonder if we could see an earlier Centurion in this timeline.
Click to expand...
Something like it perhaps, but probably not exactly so. One issue with the Centurion was its range. It could hold 121 gallons internally, good for only 65 miles on road, or 34 miles cross country.
 
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10 July 1936. 16:00hrs. MEE, Farnborough. England.
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    • allanpcameron

    Donor
    10 July 1936. 16:00hrs. MEE, Farnborough. England.

    The prototype A9E1 had been put through its paces. The whole affair had been a bit embarrassing. The Rolls-Royce engine had proven itself completely underpowered. Because of the look of the thing, quite modern compared to the tanks they were used to, and with the expectation of the 25mph speed, it had been decided to have a race between what started life as the Medium Mark 4, against what it was due to replace: the Medium Mark II and Medium Mark III. The Mark III won the quarter mile race, and the A9E1 struggled to beat the 11-year-old Mark II. It did not bode well, but worse was to come. When the tank was put through its paces on rough ground and in fast turns, the ‘lubricated tracks’, which should have been taut, had a terrible tendency to ‘slew’ and fall off the runners. The suspension was found to be poorly guided and supported by the chassis, giving a particularly bouncy ride. Altogether it was a very poor showing.

    The saving grace was that Sir John Carden had had a couple of months of tinkering with the prototype at the factory. There he had been able to see what the problems were, and much more importantly work out how he was going to resolve them. Regarding the suspension he identified the fundamental problem being the way the bogies were positioned. If he had had more time, he would have liked to reposition them before the trials here. As it was, he had been able to show his workings to the team assessing the tank. They agreed with his diagnosis and the plan to fix the problem. As well as repositioning the bogies, hydraulic shock absorbers would be fitted to correct the pitching. Altogether this would resolve the running problems. It was also patently obvious that a car engine, even for a Rolls-Royce, wasn’t capable of moving a tank, especially one 3 tons over the expected weight.

    If, after all was said and done, a second prototype was ordered, the A9E2, it would have a more powerful engine, a re-jigged suspension, and he was particularly happy that he had managed to sow the idea of deleting the dust-bin machine gun turrets. He’s been able to show a drawing of a simplified front, with the driver and one machine gunner, who could also act as radio-operator. If the tank was to act in a cavalry type role, for reconnaissance and exploitation, the commander would be better off with one less thing to think about. By freeing up the space lost to a turret, the radio could be repositioned. Carden had also noted that a more powerful engine would allow some kind of applique armour to be fitted, giving slightly more protection. He was also able to say, truthfully, that he could have the second prototype ready in about six months, allowing for an alternative engine to be sourced and tested.

    The letter authorising the A9E2 prototype, as discussed, arrived at Vickers-Armstrong two weeks later.

    You might find watching this instructive.
     
    Last edited:
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    • MattII

    allanpcameron said:
    If you mean a tank with Horstmann suspension, a meteor engine, well sloped armour and a big gun, maybe so...
    Click to expand...
    Hopefully one that doesn't need to stop every other hour to be refuelled though.

    As for the post, no threadmark and using the wrong typeface.
     
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    Bougnas

    allanpcameron said:
    10 July 1936. 16:00hrs. MEE, Farnborough. England.

    The prototype A9E1 had been put through its paces. The whole affair had been a bit embarrassing. The Rolls-Royce engine had proven itself completely underpowered. Because of the look of the thing, quite modern compared to the tanks they were used to, and with the expectation of the 25mph speed, it had been decided to have a race between what started life as the Medium Mark 4, against what it was due to replace: the Medium Mark II and Medium Mark III. The Mark III won the quarter mile race, and the A9E1 struggled to beat the 11-year-old Mark II. It did not bode well, but worse was to come. When the tank was put through its paces on rough ground and in fast turns, the ‘lubricated tracks’, which should have been taut, had a terrible tendency to ‘slew’ and fall off the runners. The suspension was found to be poorly guided and supported by the chassis, giving a particularly bouncy ride. Altogether it was a very poor showing.

    The saving grace was that Sir John Carden had had a couple of months of tinkering with the prototype at the factory. There he had been able to see what the problems were, and much more importantly work out how he was going to resolve them. Regarding the suspension he identified the fundamental problem being the way the bogies were positioned. If he had had more time, he would have liked to reposition them before the trials here. As it was, he had been able to show his workings to the team assessing the tank. They agreed with his diagnosis and the plan to fix the problem. As well as repositioning the bogies, hydraulic shock absorbers would be fitted to correct the pitching. Altogether this would resolve the running problems. It was also patently obvious that a car engine, even for a Rolls-Royce, wasn’t capable of moving a tank, especially one 3 tons over the expected weight.

    If, after all was said and done, a second prototype was ordered, the A9E2, it would have a more powerful engine, a re-jigged suspension, and he was particularly happy that he had managed to sow the idea of deleting the dust-bin machine gun turrets. He’s been able to show a drawing of a simplified front, with the driver and one machine gunner, who could also act as radio-operator. If the tank was to act in a cavalry type role, for reconnaissance and exploitation, the commander would be better off with one less thing to think about. By freeing up the space lost to a turret, the radio could be repositioned. Carden had also noted that a more powerful engine would allow some kind of applique armour to be fitted, giving slightly more protection. He was also able to say, truthfully, that he could have the second prototype ready in about six months, allowing for an alternative engine to be sourced and tested.

    The letter authorising the A9E2 prototype, as discussed, arrived at Vickers-Armstrong two weeks later.

    You might find watching this instructive.
    Click to expand...
    So for now, A9E2 is the A9 with a redesigned suspension with shock absorbers, but with the A10-style hull front with a single gunner, and supposed to carry a new engine? Seems plausible given how the A10 itself evolved. Regarding the engine, IIRC Carden's successor Little preferred a diesel engine and this is exactly what later Valentines used (AEC diesel). Carden could push for this given the greater reliability and better performance of this engine.
     
    15 September 1936. 19:00hrs. Moscow. CCCP
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    • allanpcameron

    Donor
    15 September 1936. 19:00hrs. Moscow. CCCP

    Sitting at his desk, Lt Col Giffard le Q. Martel, Assistant Director of Mechanization, tried to marshal his thoughts. Having spent the last week or so at Red Army manoeuvres he had been shocked, stunned and quite angry. The people in Britain, especially his fellow army officers, thought of the Red Army as if it were still the mob they’d pitched up to fight in 1919 with the Whites. The fact that mob had since undergone something of a renaissance had passed unnoticed in the West. While the loss to the Poles in the 1920’s had reinforced the Western notion of the Soviets as Communist losers, it had led to a transformation of the Red Army into something really quite frightening.

    Martel had seen plenty of exercises on Salisbury Plain in his time, and with a keen eye for the role of the tank in modern warfare, the Medium Mark IIs and IIIs along with the tankettes and light tanks the Royal Tank Corps fielded might have looked pretty impressive to some. Then he had watched the Red Army tanks going through their paces in the Byelorussian CCP. If it was sheer numbers, that would be one thing. In one exercise he had seen something like ten times the total amount of serviceable armoured vehicles the entire British Army fielded. Yes, there were plenty of light tanks and tankettes that wouldn’t have looked out of place on Salisbury Plain. In fact, he could see among the Soviet vehicles some that had clear Carden-Loyd antecedents; others such as the T-26 that had developed from the Vickers 6 tonner. But then there were two other types that had really caught his attention.

    Though the good graces of General Wavell, whom he was accompanying, he’d even managed to have a close up look at the T-28 and the BT-2. The T-28 was obviously something developed from the idea of the Vickers A1E1 Independent. It was obviously an infantry tank. It was heavy, over 25 tons; it had a 500hp engine, developed from a German BMW aero-engine, which pushed it along at a reasonable 20mph; it was well armoured, 20-30mm; and had a 76.2mm howitzer. Compared with the A7E3 that Woolwich was working on, this tank was night and day; worse still, the Soviet tank was in production and equipping an army. There were elements of the T-28 he hadn’t been impressed by: it had twin machine gun turrets in addition to the main gun turret, which made it look formidable but probably caused more problems than it solved. The Soviet tank wasn’t perfect, he picked up from some idle chat that it had a tendency to break down and an uncomfortable ride. But it outclassed everything the British Army had, and at a guess, the French and the Germans too.

    If the T-28 could trace its genesis back to good old British design, the BT-2 was as alien as anything he could imagine. He had watched it going along roads at something like 30mph, though it could have been faster, and over rough country just a few miles an hour less. On the testing ground there was a prepared bank with a five feet vertical drop on the far side. With his own eyes he had seen the tank leap through the air and clear a 30-foot gap, without apparent damage to the suspension or the crew!

    It was lightly armoured, only 6-10mm, and had a 37mm gun, with a co-axial machine gun, it was obvious from the exercises that it was designed to replace the horse cavalry role of reconnaissance and exploitation. Martel had discovered that, once again, it was using an aero-engine (again BMW originally), producing some 300hp, so it could drive the 10 ton tank at almost 40mph, probably more on the road off its tracks. There-in was the revelation. The BT-2 had four large road wheels which adjusted independently to the ground over which they travelled. What also had shocked Martel was the information that the wheels were rubber coated, so they could travel along roads without the tracks altogether. It seemed that since the Soviets could rely less on the rail network to carry tanks from one place to another, they had invested in a system where the tank could propel itself to the required destination, at a good speed and with a very good chance of actually arriving there without breaking down!

    On further investigation Martel had discovered that the suspension system was not of Russian origin, but American: it was the invention of J Walter Christie of New Jersey. The Soviets has somehow managed to acquire the right to produce, sell and use his M1928 design for a period of 10 years, despite the American government’s ban on exporting military equipment. In his report to General Elles, the Master General of the Ordnance, Martel almost begged that a working example of the Christie design be acquired and examined to see if the British could join what was obviously the future for fast tanks.
     
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