That and Britain is a bit busy elsewhere. Also not being able to handhold should make the (many) American problems, far more glaringly obvious and unlike OTL their isn't an Ally to take the blame. Should ensure a strong pressure to get things sorted out ASAP before any attack on Europe.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
There will probably be RAF, Army and RN, as well as various Commonwealth observers and other such groups looking in on whatever the US ends up doing as their overall operation. Whatever happens will probably illuminate the Imperial General Staff as well as the various Commonwealth General to read them.
Speaking as a Brit the Second World War US Army was a learning institution par excellence, certainly better than the British Army in that respect. From a tiny, backward army in 1939 by 1945 it was man for man probably the best Army on the planet so there's no cause for concern about getting things sorted. If anything I think the heavy British involvement in Torch in OTL inhibited the US learning lessons, though it saved US lives in the short term.
TBF because of Rosservelts New Deal CCC it gave the USA a wide breath of organisational experience in basically setting up and running training camps for the Army since a lot of officers and NCOs were involved as well it gave them a solid base in setting a reserve corps. Though in terms of learning from experience we will have to see how Allan handles the US armies trial by fire in landing in North Africa or where ever else, it won’t be like landing against a motivated force like the Germans in France or under heavy opposition but will still be a major learning experince.
Very minor nitpick, but Oran is in Algeria. French Morocco has no Mediterranean coast, the options are Algeria or risk the Atlantic swells.
OTL, I believe Marshall was even more negative on Torch than King.
So they're planning to do only the central section of Torch, about two months ahead of OTL. I suspect the British in Libya & elsewhere won't be too upset about plans to do nothing for four months except rest, refit and maybe send reinforcements to Malaya/Burma/Thailand or the East Indies.
The big question now is how the Americans handle the political side. OTL they made contact with several Vichy officers in North Africa, as well as trying to set up General Giraud as leader of the French Liberation Movement, but most of the intrigue seems to have taken place in October, just before the landing. Are they going to move up the timetable, or stake everything on Weygand switching sides once the landings start? I can't imagine Weygand being very happy if he finds out that the Americans have a plan to replace him, or that they've been talking to his subordinates behind his back. And of course de Gaulle and the Free French are the official French government-in-exile, at least as far as they and the British think. A situation where the British are recognising one Allied French government and the Americans appear to be setting up another could get decidedly interesting for all concerned.
OTL, the Oran landing faced the most determined opposition with the least local support (there were attempted pro-Allied coups in both Casablanca and Algiers, but Oran seems to have been solidly Vichyite). Also OTL all the American political plays ultimately failed and they ended up having to make a hurried deal with Darlan to end the fighting. Weygand is no Darlan, which could prove either a good or a bad thing.
The US would not land at Oran alone as they feared being cut off with visions of german forces coming into Spain and seizing Gibraltar. It would have to be both Casablanca and Oran
Your Mother sounds like an incredible person and truly one of the "Few". My respect and admiration are given to such incredible people.
Allan's "Slightly earlier Torch Lite" makes a lot of sense and fits not only with his "nudges" to OTL but also with the character of Roosevelt and the stronger position of the British ITTL.. Pointless militarily as the Free French may have been in modern hindsight , the diplomatic status of France as a conquered nation/ oldest ally of US etc.. is going to weigh more heavily on an East Coast Rich Kid Lawyer born in the 1880s than seen from today's perspective. And the US had few practical other options in Mid'42. (Ok maybe ITTL - buy Valiants blueprints, make 20,000 in Detroit pronto, give them to Patton and tell him to drive to Berlin but I digress).
Can't see Midway ITTL. IJN just hasn't got it's western "flank" secured. Army, not IJN, still has political control in Tokyo. For now, although it's star is not shining as brightly, its strength comes from the corruption and money coming in from Manchuria and that is untouched.
Don't leave me this way... oh wrong Somerville
Yes Pearl was as OTL but the wheels have come off since. OTL the all conquering - please , please come out and fight us, IJN 1st Air Group 第一航空艦隊 (aka Kido Butai) controlled all of the South China sea and had roamed with near impunity around the Indian Ocean in March/ April looking for a fight with the RN (with some success .. although if you really want an Alternate History then Somerville's Force A finds them at night ,which he came ....oh so close to.. with Radar equipped Albacores.. whilst 6 on 2 Carriers sounds like even more impossible odds than Midway , Force A had tough as nails armoured carriers and IJN carriers .. a glass jaw isn't even fair to glass .. they were more like floating molotov cocktails - HMS Illustrious took and , just, survived the poundage of hits that the USN sank FOUR IJN Carriers with.. and that wasn't a fluke - Amagi and Unryu , supposedly a more advanced design, took only 1 and 2 torpedos to sink and Shinano .. managed to sink herself with no help from anyone such was the complete lack of any Japanese damage control, compounded by a design philosphy that , like the Zero, sacrificed everything to get more aircraft on it. Hanger decks BELOW the waterline.... hell I've had curry induced bowel movements that could probably sink a Japanese carrier nevermind a single stringbag launched torpedo in the dead of night! In addition they were a lot longer from re-supply, if Somerville had anything left over the next day ,and make no mistake it would have been a very difficult next day even if he'd bagged 2 to 3 carriers,but he had two HMS Rocky Balboa* Class carriers with him, he'd be able to smash them at night whenever he chose as IJN limped home...but well that's ......alternate history).
From Beatlemania to K-Pop
ITTL IJN are surely blaming the Army for failures but also are much more boxed in by increasing Allied air power and the RN's most advanced and best / well supplied global military base in the South China sea (ITTL - Now with All new for '42 , the housewive's delight...... centametric Radar! Buy her one today and she'll love you for it). Singapore is still a "fully operational battle station". The incredibly expensive building of Singapore Naval base (sorry tank fans but for a quarter of it's 1930s cost you could have had 1000 Vicker's mediums , 500 Birch guns and 200 Mathilda IIs at Arras) was THE single reason for the change of IJN and political position of "Oh we love you RN, look at our shiny badges that look just like yours, we want to be you when we grow up" , to "F*^& your racist white Imperial Victorian A$% holes, we are the IJN and we will destroy you ". All joking aside, simply committing to building the base at Sinagpore in 1923, nevermind the actual sheer size of it, utterly , and rightly, pissed off the IJN and swung them much further into the nationalist Bushido camp, it was, in the eyes of the more liberal (hey relative to Japanese Army) IJN a betrayal of the alliance with British of the First World War and considered a grave insult as it could only serve a purpose to fight the British supposed Allies... Japan. IJN and RN were super buddy buddy for a long time. Singapore base construction killed that. My Great Uncle (Royal Marines) was based in Yokohama in 1920s. He was very welcome and the RN worked earned a lot of respect helping in the aftermath of the Kanto earthquake. Singapore base killed that.
Sinagpore was a very impressive ,1930s Modern, fully equipped base, meant to both shield the pride of the Empire( India) AND project power as far east as the Monroe doctrine would allow it. My father was on HMS Eagle in 70/71 in the final "lets close ye olde shoppe and cower east of Suez RN" tour based at Singapore when the British closed it. Even 40 years after it was build he said it was incredibly impressive , the best and most impressive RN base he had served from *, put Portsmouth and Faslane to shame , it was impregnable from the Sea, sensibly laid out , massive dry docks, fuel and repair facilities - bascially equipped to support a full naval war singlehandedly. Still have a lot of crappy teak furniture he bought though....
Go West
Anyway, IJN doctrine would love a free hand for a decisive battle with US, and whilst Yamamoto was no fool, he did want to show the superiority of his Carriers. But with Singapore still "the Dagger at Japan's heart" as the IJN viewed it.. they don't have a free hand for Pacific adventures. Every day they delay though their immense carrier force becomes less dominant. It's still the most powerful fleet afloat in May '42...no one else can put that number of modern naval aircraft "punch" together in one spot anywhere, but it's hemmed in and will become increasingly as useful as the IJN Giant Battleships.. too big to risk deploying while in range of Allied land based aircraft. It will be wittled away, a sub hit there, aircraft lost to RAF/ USAAF here, until eventually a much more one sided Midway (and OTL Midway was , floating molotov cocktail hidden weakness aside, very much in IJN favour yet they still got creamed). IJN are doomed ITTL. Utterly doomed. I pity the Fools.
*Nagumo: I'm gonna bust you up.
Somerville: Go for it.
** Scapa Flow by far, far the worst. Permanently staffed base ended in the late 50s just before his time in the 60s, but occasionally a Frigate or Diesel Sub (he served on both) would come by and take shelter in the bay, do sonar training on the wrecks, check on things etc. Desolate, freezing, wind and rainswept, rusting with depressing remants of the rotting wooden barracks that once housed tens of thousands. Whilst fascinating to my dad from a historical perspective, he really wasn't sure if mentally he'd rather be in the hell of the WW1 Trenches than face 4 years stuck there.
Can't see Midway ITTL. IJN just hasn't got it's western "flank" secured. Army, not IJN, still has political control in Tokyo. For now, although it's star is not shining as brightly, its strength comes from the corruption and money coming in from Manchuria and that is untouched.
Don't leave me this way... oh wrong Somerville
Yes Pearl was as OTL but the wheels have come off since. OTL the all conquering - please , please come out and fight us, IJN 1st Air Group 第一航空艦隊 (aka Kido Butai) controlled all of the South China sea and had roamed with near impunity around the Indian Ocean in March/ April looking for a fight with the RN (with some success .. although if you really want an Alternate History then Somerville's Force A finds them at night ,which he came ....oh so close to.. with Radar equipped Albacores.. whilst 6 on 2 Carriers sounds like even more impossible odds than Midway , Force A had tough as nails armoured carriers and IJN carriers .. a glass jaw isn't even fair to glass .. they were more like floating molotov cocktails - HMS Illustrious took and , just, survived the poundage of hits that the USN sank FOUR IJN Carriers with.. and that wasn't a fluke - Amagi and Unryu , supposedly a more advanced design, took only 1 and 2 torpedos to sink and Shinano .. managed to sink herself with no help from anyone such was the complete lack of any Japanese damage control, compounded by a design philosphy that , like the Zero, sacrificed everything to get more aircraft on it. Hanger decks BELOW the waterline.... hell I've had curry induced bowel movements that could probably sink a Japanese carrier nevermind a single stringbag launched torpedo in the dead of night! In addition they were a lot longer from re-supply, if Somerville had anything left over the next day ,and make no mistake it would have been a very difficult next day even if he'd bagged 2 to 3 carriers,but he had two HMS Rocky Balboa* Class carriers with him, he'd be able to smash them at night whenever he chose as IJN limped home...but well that's ......alternate history).
From Beatlemania to K-Pop
ITTL IJN are surely blaming the Army for failures but also are much more boxed in by increasing Allied air power and the RN's most advanced and best / well supplied global military base in the South China sea (ITTL - Now with All new for '42 , the housewive's delight...... centametric Radar! Buy her one today and she'll love you for it). Singapore is still a "fully operational battle station". The incredibly expensive building of Singapore Naval base (sorry tank fans but for a quarter of it's 1930s cost you could have had 1000 Vicker's mediums , 500 Birch guns and 200 Mathilda IIs at Arras) was THE single reason for the change of IJN and political position of "Oh we love you RN, look at our shiny badges that look just like yours, we want to be you when we grow up" , to "F*^& your racist white Imperial Victorian A$% holes, we are the IJN and we will destroy you ". All joking aside, simply committing to building the base at Sinagpore in 1923, nevermind the actual sheer size of it, utterly , and rightly, pissed off the IJN and swung them much further into the nationalist Bushido camp, it was, in the eyes of the more liberal (hey relative to Japanese Army) IJN a betrayal of the alliance with British of the First World War and considered a grave insult as it could only serve a purpose to fight the British supposed Allies... Japan. IJN and RN were super buddy buddy for a long time. Singapore base construction killed that. My Great Uncle (Royal Marines) was based in Yokohama in 1920s. He was very welcome and the RN worked earned a lot of respect helping in the aftermath of the Kanto earthquake. Singapore base killed that.
Sinagpore was a very impressive ,1930s Modern, fully equipped base, meant to both shield the pride of the Empire( India) AND project power as far east as the Monroe doctrine would allow it. My father was on HMS Eagle in 70/71 in the final "lets close ye olde shoppe and cower east of Suez RN" tour based at Singapore when the British closed it. Even 40 years after it was build he said it was incredibly impressive , the best and most impressive RN base he had served from *, put Portsmouth and Faslane to shame , it was impregnable from the Sea, sensibly laid out , massive dry docks, fuel and repair facilities - bascially equipped to support a full naval war singlehandedly. Still have a lot of crappy teak furniture he bought though....
Go West
Anyway, IJN doctrine would love a free hand for a decisive battle with US, and whilst Yamamoto was no fool, he did want to show the superiority of his Carriers. But with Singapore still "the Dagger at Japan's heart" as the IJN viewed it.. they don't have a free hand for Pacific adventures. Every day they delay though their immense carrier force becomes less dominant. It's still the most powerful fleet afloat in May '42...no one else can put that number of modern naval aircraft "punch" together in one spot anywhere, but it's hemmed in and will become increasingly as useful as the IJN Giant Battleships.. too big to risk deploying while in range of Allied land based aircraft. It will be wittled away, a sub hit there, aircraft lost to RAF/ USAAF here, until eventually a much more one sided Midway (and OTL Midway was , floating molotov cocktail hidden weakness aside, very much in IJN favour yet they still got creamed). IJN are doomed ITTL. Utterly doomed. I pity the Fools.
*Nagumo: I'm gonna bust you up.
Somerville: Go for it.
** Scapa Flow by far, far the worst. Permanently staffed base ended in the late 50s just before his time in the 60s, but occasionally a Frigate or Diesel Sub (he served on both) would come by and take shelter in the bay, do sonar training on the wrecks, check on things etc. Desolate, freezing, wind and rainswept, rusting with depressing remants of the rotting wooden barracks that once housed tens of thousands. Whilst fascinating to my dad from a historical perspective, he really wasn't sure if mentally he'd rather be in the hell of the WW1 Trenches than face 4 years stuck there.
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Singapore is really that important huh, I wonder if there are plans for more upgrades IOTL...
Just need to make it mobile and show the world wat a REAL super-carrier can do 😁
I think I read somewhere (might have been a book or an Astrodragon thread) Scapa Flow had improved facilities during WW2 in the shape of floating amenities such as a 'cinema ship'.
Still wouldn't have done much about the climate though...
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
The basic problem with Scapa Flow was it was basically only a war time anchorage that had little to no use during peace time, as with the UK Mainland being so close by. All the additional facilities needed to support the fleet were close by and used regularly, unlike Singapore or Pearl Harbour which were fleet bases, it didn’t need dry docks, extensive maintenance facilities, etc. Ships that needed work done on them could and were sent to either one of the Admiralty Dockyards or the civilian facilities on the mainland. It didn’t even need storage facilities for oil, as this could be brought in by small tankers, and even fresh food was delivered by coasters. Spending money on facilities that weren’t going to be used in peace time given just how short money was pre WWI, and during the interwar period, was seen as a waste. Even during the war, other than the Home Fleet, the vast majority of British warships never saw Scapa, being based elsewhere. For those ships and personnel who ended up swinging at anchor or stuck ashore this meant that the lack of local facilities made it a very hard posting. But for the majority who only got to visit for a short time, it was just a bleak experience, that was soon over, as they were normally based in somewhere far more accommodating.
RR.
Indeed....
P/s: I think I accidently deleted the second part of my question which was...
before posting...
Facilities that close to the action would probably only be used for immediate repairs, patching holes and the like, to allow the ship to hopefully make it ports outside of the combat zone.
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You also have the rejection of the Racial Equality Clause at Versailles, the ending of the Anglo-Japanese Alliance at American request and Washington Naval Treaty. In addition, given Japan operated in Siberia longer than the rest primarily (though not exclusively) because of the massacre at Nikolayevsk - on - Amur but the rest of the world accused them of simple Imperialism, you do have a number of reasons for the turning of Japanese opinion.
Surely the army not taking Malaya and Singpore weakens their room for influence despite having de facto if not de jure control since the 1936 coup? As far as the army is concerned, the southerm half of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere is just a bonus. Also, the raid on Tokyo means that regardless, if Japanese, you have to deal with the Americans first becasue they are considered a direct threat to the Home Islands rather than the outer empire.
Surely the army not taking Malaya and Singpore weakens their room for influence despite having de facto if not de jure control since the 1936 coup? As far as the army is concerned, the southerm half of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere is just a bonus. Also, the raid on Tokyo means that regardless, if Japanese, you have to deal with the Americans first becasue they are considered a direct threat to the Home Islands rather than the outer empire.
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Uhh...depends, considering some of the factors,like the aforementioned lack of oil from Sumatra, the possibility of a complete collapse at the Siamese front, the fact that Burma Road still open ITTL, by the time the Doolittle Raid would be considered (which, there really isn't any indication that this raid would be approved and we are already in the month of May), an assessment of which threat could spewing out different potential results (such as whether the lack of raw materials flowing from Southeast Asia could perhaps probably cause a collapse of economy and order at the Home Islands, or the Chinese now having enough supplies to push back the Japanese into an area that is near enough to facilitate an Allied bombing raid campaign at Western Japan) which would effect the Japanese strategy....
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All valid points but in the end, you directly threatened not only the home islands but the Emperor himself. That will effectively trump practically anything. It is after all one of the reasons the Pacific War begins with the majority of IJN resources hitting Pearl Harbour (although granted due to time differences they technically hit Khota Baru first).
I'm out of date with this thread so may have missed some vital information but isn't it quite possible that the War Cabinet (IIRC) will point out that the threat posed by the Doolittle raid was very minor and almost certainly a one-off, and therefore not worthy of diverting resources to counter?
They could well have done that OTL, but didn't. I don't see any particular drivers ITTL for making Imperial Japan more reasonable.