Also would the US Govt and Military listen if the UK cabinet told them?
Probably not
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Probably not
I'd argue from a US homefront morale perspective, it's even more needed. Yes, we know that the Allies are doing a lot better, but the US public doesn't. What they see is McArthur dying in the Phillippines, those same Islands falling and the USN taking hits while the British and to a lesser extent the Dutch seem to be stopping or even rolling back the Japanese.
Borneo only held out as long as it did because of the Texan artillery unit.
For all that this is awesome, it's not very visible in the big Newspapers. What you need in the late 41 to mid 42 time period is something big and splashy. Such as an air-raid on Tokyo.
Good point and given optic’s by the public are probably worse when compared to OTL given the British, Commonwealth and Dutch are doing better in comparison the US will probably have to do something for the sake of public morale.
Almost??
Pushing your enemies into a stupid move is a very good reason to do something!
Especially if you can know or can find out what that move is going to be ahead of time.
It's worth stopping to remember here that for all their Bushido posturing, the Japanese leadership were not mindless idiots. It's also worth remembering that this is not the Imperial Japan of OTL 1942, high on victory and starting to believe their own propaganda about the Invincible Japanese Spirit.
In April 1942 OTL, the Southern Resource Area had been secured and the US Navy was the only opponent left on the field. Forcing a showdown at Midway therefore made strategic sense, Doolittle or no.
TTL, the IJN has no Force Z, Java Sea or Indian Ocean raid to boast about, ABDA is still very much in the fight and the Sumatra oilfields are out of their reach. On the Army side, the attack on Malaya has been a dismal failure, the Central advance into Borneo and the Celebes is still going forward but progress has been slow and expensive and the Japanese are still well short of their objectives in Java/Flores/Timor. Only in the Philippines, against the Americans, have the Japanese enjoyed major success.
If the Americans respond with a nuisance raid on Tokyo, the Japanese may just decide that nuisance is all the Americans can offer and redouble their push for the real prize - the East Indies.
In April 1942 OTL, the Southern Resource Area had been secured and the US Navy was the only opponent left on the field. Forcing a showdown at Midway therefore made strategic sense, Doolittle or no.
TTL, the IJN has no Force Z, Java Sea or Indian Ocean raid to boast about, ABDA is still very much in the fight and the Sumatra oilfields are out of their reach. On the Army side, the attack on Malaya has been a dismal failure, the Central advance into Borneo and the Celebes is still going forward but progress has been slow and expensive and the Japanese are still well short of their objectives in Java/Flores/Timor. Only in the Philippines, against the Americans, have the Japanese enjoyed major success.
If the Americans respond with a nuisance raid on Tokyo, the Japanese may just decide that nuisance is all the Americans can offer and redouble their push for the real prize - the East Indies.
The IJN will be forced to respond if the Doolittle raid is carried out. The Army would force them to put up or shut up and let them run the war from now on if they were to be attacked. They would make it look like the Navy was not attacking the American forces enough to prevent them from attacking Dai Nippon.
As Merrick pointed out, the situation they face ITTL is very different, and therefore there is a significant chance that the Japanese will react differently.
12 May 1942. Ontario, Canada.
allanpcameron
Donor
12 May 1942. Ontario, Canada.
The Canadian 11th Infantry Brigade, was now officially the 2nd Army Tank Brigade. The Grey and Simcoe Foresters were now the 26th Army Tank Battalion, and 16th/22nd Saskatchewan Horse had become the 20th Army Tank Battalion. These were now joined by The Halifax Rifles, or 23rd Army Tank Battalion as they were now known.
Transitioning from infantry to armour was no easy matter, and the men had been to just about every school imaginable. The drivers, gunners, loaders and tank commanders’ courses, were just the beginning of their conversion. The vast majority of the officers and men were still on the courses, but the first graduates had returned to Camp Borden to get to grips with their tanks, eventually being able to train the next lot when they came back from their schools.
The CAC1 (Canadian/Australian Cruiser) known as the Ram in Canada was now in production at the Montreal Locomotive Works. With 3-inchs of frontal armour and 2-inches on the side, the 28.5 ton tank was powered by the Cummings diesel engine, and ran on Hotchkiss style suspension. The tank’s gun was the slimmed down version of the 25pdr gun developed in Australia, making the tank one of the most powerfully armed in the world.
Although the men had completed their courses, there was still a long way to go putting theory into practice. The Canadian army had come a considerable way from when the only tanks they had were the old 6 ton Renault FT tanks built in America. The instructors at Camp Borden were well used to taking complete novices and turning them into tank crews. Turning those tank crews into an effective troop, squadron, Battalion and Army Tank Brigade would take much longer.
The Ram, being a new tank, was something of a challenge. The Valiant IA* tanks had become familiar to the instructors. The instructors themselves had spent time in Montreal watching how the new tanks were created, and had themselves had to become proficient in their care, maintenance and use. The instructors had come to know the tanks’ idiosyncrasies, as well as their strengths. There wasn’t much point comparing the two, the Valiant IA* had a popgun compared to the Ram, but it had the same reliable diesel engine and that made life so much easier for the mechanics and B echelon troops.
A good number of instructors were Australians, sent over to Canada to learn the skills needed for when the CAC1 (Jumbuck) entered into service with the Australian army. The connection between the Canadians and Australians had a friendly edge to it, with both sides comparing and contrasting their own homelands and culture, always negatively towards one another. One of the things the Australians had going for them that the Canadians couldn’t really match was the four Australian Divisions’ contribution to the war so far. Other than the loss of the Canadian troops in Hong Kong, the Canadian army had not yet got to grips with the enemy.
The Canadian 11th Infantry Brigade, was now officially the 2nd Army Tank Brigade. The Grey and Simcoe Foresters were now the 26th Army Tank Battalion, and 16th/22nd Saskatchewan Horse had become the 20th Army Tank Battalion. These were now joined by The Halifax Rifles, or 23rd Army Tank Battalion as they were now known.
Transitioning from infantry to armour was no easy matter, and the men had been to just about every school imaginable. The drivers, gunners, loaders and tank commanders’ courses, were just the beginning of their conversion. The vast majority of the officers and men were still on the courses, but the first graduates had returned to Camp Borden to get to grips with their tanks, eventually being able to train the next lot when they came back from their schools.
The CAC1 (Canadian/Australian Cruiser) known as the Ram in Canada was now in production at the Montreal Locomotive Works. With 3-inchs of frontal armour and 2-inches on the side, the 28.5 ton tank was powered by the Cummings diesel engine, and ran on Hotchkiss style suspension. The tank’s gun was the slimmed down version of the 25pdr gun developed in Australia, making the tank one of the most powerfully armed in the world.
Although the men had completed their courses, there was still a long way to go putting theory into practice. The Canadian army had come a considerable way from when the only tanks they had were the old 6 ton Renault FT tanks built in America. The instructors at Camp Borden were well used to taking complete novices and turning them into tank crews. Turning those tank crews into an effective troop, squadron, Battalion and Army Tank Brigade would take much longer.
The Ram, being a new tank, was something of a challenge. The Valiant IA* tanks had become familiar to the instructors. The instructors themselves had spent time in Montreal watching how the new tanks were created, and had themselves had to become proficient in their care, maintenance and use. The instructors had come to know the tanks’ idiosyncrasies, as well as their strengths. There wasn’t much point comparing the two, the Valiant IA* had a popgun compared to the Ram, but it had the same reliable diesel engine and that made life so much easier for the mechanics and B echelon troops.
A good number of instructors were Australians, sent over to Canada to learn the skills needed for when the CAC1 (Jumbuck) entered into service with the Australian army. The connection between the Canadians and Australians had a friendly edge to it, with both sides comparing and contrasting their own homelands and culture, always negatively towards one another. One of the things the Australians had going for them that the Canadians couldn’t really match was the four Australian Divisions’ contribution to the war so far. Other than the loss of the Canadian troops in Hong Kong, the Canadian army had not yet got to grips with the enemy.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Doing some googling and apparently the short 25 pdr used by the Aussies did not have a "super" charge rating so was limited to 1550 ft/s muzzle velocity for the 20 pdr shot.
25-pr data sheet
Technical characteristics, list of publications and short history
nigelef.tripod.com
It seems the Aussie instructors at Camp Borden are mentioning it... Hopefully, that doesn't mean they pester Combined Operations to do a major raid on Occupied France before the Yanks arrive. On the other hand, the lessons painfully learned in blood at Dieppe probably saved far more lives on D-Day. Let us hope the Ram doesn't mind shingle beaches.
I could see the Soviets casting their eyes on the 25lb gun in a diesel tank and demanding Rams be shipped to Vladivostok.
Not long before this the Canadian Divisions were still considered the critical centrepiece of any anti invasion force in Britain. So British leadership were not climbing over themselves to disparage the Canadians for not fighting when their presence was a critical part of defending their own territory.
The main complication with sending the Canadians abroad is political. Mackenzie King wanted to avoid high casualties that could force a reopening of the conscription debate to maintain. He only really agreed to have them used when he started worrying that they may miss a chance to contribute at all. Even then, the general difficulty of raising conscription and the inevitable drop off of enlistments made Canadian formations a bit of a wasting asset in 1945.
Between that and the desire to keep the Canadians together as a unit (and thus the need to train them as a Corps level formation) the Canadians were politically difficult to move early in the war.
A low-powered 25 pounder sounds to me like an excellent lobber of HE at whatever infantry formation or fortification brigade command wants gone. Insofar, British forces have had some of the best AT guns but had to rely on artillery support for big boom deployment. Rams and Jumbucks might just end up swapped around and distributed throughout Valiant II units for a period, with Canadian and Australian forces getting good six-pounder-hole-puncher tanks in trade from British formations. Or is this too much disorganisation for the armies to perform?