Separated at Birth: America and Drakia

[Whiteshore]

I take it the best OTL analogy for radical Geoism is Maoism sans the trappings of Marxism?

 

[Indicus]

I take it the best OTL analogy for radical Geoism is Maoism sans the trappings of Marxism?

I thought the Khmer Rouge, what with how urban dwellers were forced into the countryside.

 

[naraht]

Speaking of no manufactory.

From the standpoint of Drakia, where are the industrialized areas of Drakia? (the equivalent of the Rhine or the North American Mid-atlantic/Industrial Midwest). In a war of 20th Century technology, the ability to create lots of Steel will be key and I don't know outside of OTL South Africa they exist (and even in South Africa, I don't believe the Coal and Iron ore exists in the amounts that it does in Drakia's enemies. Also in a WWII situation, Oil will be critical. The Drakia do have OTL's Arabia, I believe, but that is *very* bombable from OTL Persia (by those standards the oil for the 3R in Romania was relatively inaccessible.

I presume that the area that has the highest population density of whites iTTL will basically run along the coast from OTL Kenya to OTL Namibia. (I have no idea on Madagascar)

 

[Falkanner]

Speaking of no manufactory.

From the standpoint of Drakia, where are the industrialized areas of Drakia? (the equivalent of the Rhine or the North American Mid-atlantic/Industrial Midwest). In a war of 20th Century technology, the ability to create lots of Steel will be key and I don't know outside of OTL South Africa they exist (and even in South Africa, I don't believe the Coal and Iron ore exists in the amounts that it does in Drakia's enemies. Also in a WWII situation, Oil will be critical. The Drakia do have OTL's Arabia, I believe, but that is *very* bombable from OTL Persia (by those standards the oil for the 3R in Romania was relatively inaccessible.

I presume that the area that has the highest population density of whites iTTL will basically run along the coast from OTL Kenya to OTL Namibia. (I have no idea on Madagascar)

Just looking at figures for iron ore production, South Africa is currently putting out about 73 million tons each year, compared to 46 million for the US and another 46 million for Canada. If these figures would have been different in the early 20th century, I can't say, but it seems like Drakia should have enough to sustain a war with the TTL USA and its allies, at least for a while. Adding to this, Drakia can also supplement its iron production with sources in North and West Africa. Mauritania is putting out about 13 million, and Sierra Leone about 12 million, with Egypt, Algeria, and Morocco also making small contributions. But yeah, OTL South Africa is going to be producing most of Drakia's iron.

Coal is a different story. In 2016, OTL South Africa put out 251 million tons of coal, compared to 176 for Germany, 385 for Russia, 492 for Australia, and 660 for the US. Beyond that, Africa has very little coal -- Drakia is definitely at a disadvantage here.

As for oil, if they lose the Middle East, they can still rely on Libya, Algeria, Nigeria, and Angola, which have most of Africa's oil reserves. Today, all of Africa is producing more than 2000 million barrels per year: more than Iraq, but less than the US. In the next war, I can easily see the US and its allies attacking the Niger River delta and the coast of Angola to disrupt Drakia's supply of oil, because cutting off those regions would cut Drakia's oil production in half (assuming they already lost the Middle East).

 

[Manatee]

Just looking at figures for iron ore production, South Africa is currently putting out about 73 million tons each year, compared to 46 million for the US and another 46 million for Canada. If these figures would have been different in the early 20th century, I can't say, but it seems like Drakia should have enough to sustain a war with the TTL USA and its allies, at least for a while. Adding to this, Drakia can also supplement its iron production with sources in North and West Africa. Mauritania is putting out about 13 million, and Sierra Leone about 12 million, with Egypt, Algeria, and Morocco also making small contributions. But yeah, OTL South Africa is going to be producing most of Drakia's iron.

Coal is a different story. In 2016, OTL South Africa put out 251 million tons of coal, compared to 176 for Germany, 385 for Russia, 492 for Australia, and 660 for the US. Beyond that, Africa has very little coal -- Drakia is definitely at a disadvantage here.

As for oil, if they lose the Middle East, they can still rely on Libya, Algeria, Nigeria, and Angola, which have most of Africa's oil reserves. Today, all of Africa is producing more than 2000 million barrels per year: more than Iraq, but less than the US. In the next war, I can easily see the US and its allies attacking the Niger River delta and the coast of Angola to disrupt Drakia's supply of oil, because cutting off those regions would cut Drakia's oil production in half (assuming they already lost the Middle East).

Though I am not sure if they can transport it effectively. They would probably have to use trains to move all of that. Which could be eliminated easily through bombing.

 

[Born in the USSA]

Great update! One thing I think is interesting is that a politician in the US TTL trying to make a name and simply explain the scary new ideologies could make a spectrum based on the hierarchy of needs, with each building on and refining the hierarchy. "What is the most important thing in life?"

• Geoists- "Land!" (Physiological)*
• Societists- "Hierarchy!" (Safety/Belonging)**
• Fascists- "Rights and stuff!" (Esteem/Actualization)***

*but scary
**but eeeeeviiiiiillllll
***obviously the best, guys

 

[General Tirpitz]

After all those Geosist shenanigans, it will probably take at least few decades until Russia is recovered enough to play great power games again. I personally like to argue though that being a great power involves other things too than just raw military and economic numbers and a country can play a larger role in the international system than it "should" be able to, like you can see with Putin's Russia or Mussolini's Italy before the WW2 for example, but the country is certainly in a greatly weakened state at the moment and needs time to recover. Did more nations splinter off from Russia during the Second Civil War?

 

[President Earl Warren]

Totalitarianism is a broad category. It incorporates regimes with left-wing ideologies, regimes with right-wing ideologies, and the governments of purely self-interested despots. The arguments and justifications for totalitarianism range from Stalinism to Juche to Fascism to Japanese Militarism to whatever de Francia was doing with Rousseau’s ideas in Paraguay. But at same time totalitarianism is also very uniform- whatever the ideology or justification behind it, the practices of the totalitarian state almost always follow similar patterns. There is always the Cheka, the State Security Department, the Gestapo, the OVRA, the Special Higher Police , the Pyragues, by whatever name. There is always the Party or the Movement or the Cause whose re-dedication is a constant presence in everyday life. There is always the Man of Steel, the Supreme Leader, the Duke, the Father of the Country with his cult of personality demanding reverence.

And there is always the terror- the ever-pervading fear hanging like fog over the citizens of the nation.

Tyranny, Tyranny never changes... (yes I ripped that off from Fallout, its a damn good line so dont shoot me)

So, it is in OTL, and so it was in the Separate-verse. The economic ideas behind Geoism weren’t inherent to the peasantry and rural interests, but that was the segment of society within which they caught on, and the ideology had been unbreakably married to Agrarian Populism ever since. That wasn’t necessarily a bad thing; the Geoists might be rather socially conservative, they might glorify the farmer as the foundation of society, and they might be distrustful of the modern industrialized city, but their ideas were more progressive than conservative and the rural concerns that they advocated for were generally valid concerns. William Jennings Bryan would have found himself largely on the same page with them, as would Milo Reno. But the extremist flavors of Geoism- the Pobladistos of Spain and the Rodinaviks of Russia- were a very different animal indeed. They sought nothing less than the total dismantlement of the old order and the ushering in of an entirely new society, and were prepared to pave the road to their utopia with the bodies of their foes. In both countries there were mass purges of the nobility and suspect members of the intelligentsia, the hammer falling hardest on the despised “urban elites”. In both countries there was state religion and ultimately the suppression of other faiths (the Pobladistos started with Sedevacantism and eventually picked their own Anti-Pope). Nominal tolerance of other cultures and ethnicities proved a thin shield for minorities, be they Kazakhs or Catalans. The Spanish Poblado Republic was less extreme than Russia, it grudgingly maintained a degree of industrial manufacturing even if it placed industrial workers on the very bottom of its social ladder and regarded them as potential Socialist or Utopian enemies of the people.

This is utterly horrific, bringing the fury of Lenin but adding a good hardy dose of Mao...This divison between Farmers and Urban people (who will turn Utopian most likely in a self fuffilling prophecy) plus the Discontent most likely coming from groups who still like old society (people still loyal to Rome,people connected to old buissnesses and the like) is likely to bring a second civil war...Not good for spain at all

Meanwhile the “Rodina Zemlya” (Homeland Earth) emerged from the Second Russian Civil War victorious over its Socialist, Utopian, Liberal, and Anarchist enemies under the tight fist of Rudnikov Semyon Danilovich. Rudinkov was a fanatic who proclaimed his country the beginning of a world government that would in time expand to absorb the entire globe. His efforts to create a purified agrarian Geoist republic included the large-scale forced relocation of the urban masses to the countryside, where they were “resettled” in new villages- many created simply by picking spots on the map and putting a village there. Millions died in the “Re-Settlement” (Peremesheniye) and the starvation that accompanied it, millions more perished in forced labor and the massacres of enemies of the people. In keeping with Rodinist doctrine that manufacturing did not produce value, but merely spent resources to rework materials produced by farmers, miners, and laborers, the RZ attempted to dismantle its national industry almost totally, preserving only a small amount of low-level cottage industry and what was needed to maintain its armed forces.

And unlike the spanish the Russians go full Pol Pot... these people should get a reward for being even more stupid then Stalin, Crippling Russia and killing millions out of no greater purpose than Ideological Zeal...Great work you blood thirsty ninkinpoos... Honestly dont know if Russia deserves this, given how France and Italy got off easier with the same and worse rolls...

Arms, ammunition, money, and even military advisors and agents of the Black Chamber flowed across these borders into the Drakian Near East, or were smuggled ashore into West and North Africa as part of a vast project by the United States to undermine its estranged younger brother. Native rebellions, uprisings, terrorism, and sabotage were chronic during the Crucible, as long-exploited subject peoples struck back against an overlord weakened and bleeding from a thousand cuts.

Good to see the NOT!CIA getting a good tutelage in Clandestine ratfucking. Hopefully they will take the lessons well and apply them on the right side more often than not...

This is not to imply that the Crucible was easy, or straightforward, or that Drakia’s victory wasn’t in question until the very end. Ultimately the deciding factor was the existence of a pro-Drakian Native (and occasionally non-Native but also non-Drakia) minority that actively supported the regime.

The military government that took power following Premier McRae’s resignation in 1915 made a series of compromises that would have been politically impossible in a less desperate situation, conceding ideological purity in the name of survival. Victory meant numbers, and numbers meant manpower, and immigration to Drakia didn’t resume in any real numbers until the situation had stabilized in the early 20’s and it was clear their country wasn’t going to collapse in the near future. So General Saxon did what he could. Mixed-race persons who were 25% or less African or Asian were universally declared “white” and offered citizenship, as were all of the former citizens of the other African dominions, regardless of race (none of the dominions in question had extended citizenship universally to their Native inhabitants, but several had on a case-to-case basis). Citizenship was extended to the British, German, and Russian colonists of the Holy Land, Syria, and Iraq, and to the Spanish colonists and refugees in Morocco. The inhabitants of Egypt were declared to be part of the “Misri” martial race descended from the ancient Egyptians and separate from their Arab neighbors, and they proved to be essential allies in the fight to hold North Africa (or at least the portion of the Egyptian population convinced to continue to tolerate Drakian rule provided an essential non-rebellious base of operation there). The Zionist community in the Holy Land had co-operated with British and German authorities against the Arab Revolt during the World War, after Drakia took control of the area General Saxon was desperate enough for allies that he offered to allow a Jewish princely state in the OTL Israeli Coastal Plain and to make any Sephardic or Mizrahi Jews living within its borders Honorary Whites (most of the Ashkenazim had received citizenship as former British, Russian, or German citizens, other types of Jews hadn’t). Despite the fact that the Drakian government had actively suppressed Zionism among the Drakian Jewish community the deal went ahead, causing a split in the global Zionist movement between those who considered working with Drakia an acceptable evil to protect the Jewish community in Eretz Yisroel from the Arabs, and save Near Eastern Jews from Drakian Bondage, and those who rejected any such co-operation and turned their focus to sponsoring Jewish agricultural colonies in Patagonia and OTL Western Canada.

Divide and Conquer is too Damn effectivee.. Stil love the Trouble that the Draka have brewed them sleves for later, you have just armed millions of People whose only reason to fowllow you is fear,either of enslavement from you or Rwanda style murder by the Bondsmen... if they ever think that the Draka are weak enough they can just up and leave. For that matter all the new citizens are going to have a interesting intergration process...wonder how much they will like the entire eugenics craziness....

Even among the ranks of favored castes from before the World War you had Honorary Whites- and a few Whites believe it or not- who supported, participated in, and on occasion led rebel elements.

So lawrance of Arabia Types? That would be fun to see...

As the tide turned and the army pushed back into regions it had previously abandoned, Drakia inflicted an inhuman punishment on those who had defied its rule. Villages and towns were wiped out with gas and phosphorus, populations were removed to become Bonded Labor in a content-spanning network of forced labor camps, tribes that surrendered were spared total annihilation but forced to relocate far from their original homelands. Millions died in the massacres and in the camps. Millions more were sent fleeing abroad as refugees. To call the events of the Crucible a genocide would be in no way an exaggerated, there were entire cultures that were wiped out save for a few individuals and it is estimated that more than 15,000,000~ African and Middle Eastern civilians died in the fighting and its aftermath (to put that in perspective 17-22,000,000 Chinese civilians died in the Second Sino-Japanese War in OTL). Roughly a 800,000 White Drakians- 8%~ of their total population (in OTL Germany lost about 4% of its population in World War I)- died along with their enemies, so did 5,000,000 Native Auxiliaries and soldiers in the armies of the princely states.

This really just drives home how much the Draka have screwed africa... Even when they collapsed they will already of destroyed too much for it ever to be whole again.

Drakian society was profoundly affected by the Crucible; it became vastly more militarized, more paranoid (Drakians were always conscious of America’s hand assisting the rebels), and more nationalistic. It was also more egalitarian than it had been, opening up avenues for women that had been previously closed (including combat positions in the military, although women were mostly removed from those once things calmed down), and much more accepting of Honorary Whites who had achieved positions of power and influence that they had previously never possessed. The Church of Christ the Savior grew considerably, although the Sedevacantist Catholics and the Drakian Church remain major cultural fixtures.

Another perdiction Im counting in the win box, These guys have pretty much transitoned into Sparta by now.

The 1920 Drakian National Elections were the final gasp of the country’s increasingly moribund Westminster democracy. They saw what remained of the establishment and the old Drakian aristocracy thoroughly defeated and witnessed the victory of the Societists under the leadership of Lindsey Stoker. The Societists stood for a meritocracy that favored Drakians not from the once-dominant aristocratic families. They stood for an acceptance of Honorary Whites not as equals, but as junior partners instead of mere servants in the social order, part of the “Aspirant Race” of Naldorssen. They stood for a social safety net for veterans, particularly injured veterans, and for Citizens in general. They also stood for a hierarchical society, an explicit rejection of the practice of democracy and the concepts of equality, natural rights, and consent of the governed. They wanted Eugenic extremism, state-enforced religion, and the de facto chattel slavery of the Bonded Labor System. There would be no more open elections under Societism, just one-party rule under a Premier and a Cabinet seeking to guide the evolution of the population towards the eventual “closure of humanity” and the creation of the Final Society. The new Bureau of Social Defense took on the responsibility of suppressing dissent and political opposition, and the regime wasted no time in extending its ideology from the highest echelons of the state to the bedrooms of its subjects.

And democracy dies with a wave of cheers. Does raise some more interesting questions, do the societists consider all the people that Saxon included in Honorary citizen to be worthy of Aspiration...I could see them wanting to stab some, say groups like the Indian Muslims, right in the back...

 

[naraht]

Just looking at figures for iron ore production, South Africa is currently putting out about 73 million tons each year, compared to 46 million for the US and another 46 million for Canada. If these figures would have been different in the early 20th century, I can't say, but it seems like Drakia should have enough to sustain a war with the TTL USA and its allies, at least for a while. Adding to this, Drakia can also supplement its iron production with sources in North and West Africa. Mauritania is putting out about 13 million, and Sierra Leone about 12 million, with Egypt, Algeria, and Morocco also making small contributions. But yeah, OTL South Africa is going to be producing most of Drakia's iron.

Coal is a different story. In 2016, OTL South Africa put out 251 million tons of coal, compared to 176 for Germany, 385 for Russia, 492 for Australia, and 660 for the US. Beyond that, Africa has very little coal -- Drakia is definitely at a disadvantage here.

As for oil, if they lose the Middle East, they can still rely on Libya, Algeria, Nigeria, and Angola, which have most of Africa's oil reserves. Today, all of Africa is producing more than 2000 million barrels per year: more than Iraq, but less than the US. In the next war, I can easily see the US and its allies attacking the Niger River delta and the coast of Angola to disrupt Drakia's supply of oil, because cutting off those regions would cut Drakia's oil production in half (assuming they already lost the Middle East).

Does anyone iOTL use Oil for Steel production?

I think the Libyan and Algerian Reserves may be just as easily Bombable from Drakian opponents in Europe.

 

[HonestAbe1809]

1. I’m thinking that the story of one of those Lawrence of Arabia types could be made into a movie after the Societist regime falls in Drakia.
2. I like the name “Empire of Drakia” more than “Domination of Draka”. While the rest of the world and we the audience can see that they’re tyrannical assholes it’s more realistic for the Drakians themselves to delude themselves into thinking that they’re working for The Greater Good.

 

[Workable Goblin]

Does anyone iOTL use Oil for Steel production?

Not directly I don't think, but you can use oil to generate electricity and then use that electricity in an electric furnace to produce steel. Given their overall situation, I suspect Drakia will be big on diesel (and jet) trains, cars and trucks, airplanes, oil-fired power plants, and so on as a way of reserving coal only for applications where you actually need it, and I also suspect that they will be very interested in nuclear and (to a lesser extent) renewable energy sources when they become available. I certainly can't see them passing up the Grand Inga and 39 GW (!) of coal-less and oil-less power generation, for example. Think the '50s and '60s US on an even larger scale, basically.

 

[Wolttaire]

Just looking at figures for iron ore production, South Africa is currently putting out about 73 million tons each year, compared to 46 million for the US and another 46 million for Canada. If these figures would have been different in the early 20th century, I can't say, but it seems like Drakia should have enough to sustain a war with the TTL USA and its allies, at least for a while. Adding to this, Drakia can also supplement its iron production with sources in North and West Africa. Mauritania is putting out about 13 million, and Sierra Leone about 12 million, with Egypt, Algeria, and Morocco also making small contributions. But yeah, OTL South Africa is going to be producing most of Drakia's iron.

Coal is a different story. In 2016, OTL South Africa put out 251 million tons of coal, compared to 176 for Germany, 385 for Russia, 492 for Australia, and 660 for the US. Beyond that, Africa has very little coal -- Drakia is definitely at a disadvantage here.

As for oil, if they lose the Middle East, they can still rely on Libya, Algeria, Nigeria, and Angola, which have most of Africa's oil reserves. Today, all of Africa is producing more than 2000 million barrels per year: more than Iraq, but less than the US. In the next war, I can easily see the US and its allies attacking the Niger River delta and the coast of Angola to disrupt Drakia's supply of oil, because cutting off those regions would cut Drakia's oil production in half (assuming they already lost the Middle East).

most of that oil wasn’t able to be used without modern technology and wasn't discovered because of the relative development of those countries so they weren't able to find it and even with more advanced tech and somehow miraculous the drakia being able to build up the infrastructure across those areas to access the oil and then transport it a massive investment most of them are still very vunerbale to attacks and can get cut off because let be real in any war situation most of the middle east and northern Africa is done for

 

[naraht]

most of that oil wasn’t able to be used without modern technology and wasn't discovered because of the relative development of those countries so they weren't able to find it and even with more advanced tech and somehow miraculous the drakia being able to build up the infrastructure across those areas to access the oil and then transport it a massive investment most of them are still very vunerbale to attacks and can get cut off because let be real in any war situation most of the middle east and northern Africa is done for

I went back and looked at a map, Arabia (OTL Saudi Arabia) is not Drakan, but surrounded by Drakan Palestine, Jordan and Mesopotamia/Kuwait on the North and Yemen on the South, so they have a good chunk of the Middle Eastern oil, but not all of it. Arabia will fall fairly quickly, but even if it falls, the time between conquest and any reasonable amount of oil should be significant. To protect it from bombing, Persia would have to fall.

Libyan oil iOTL wasn't discovered until the 1950s, I am not sure any part of North Africa is significantly more advanced than OTL so that it would have been found. Also, that oil once found iOTL went about 300 miles north to the Mediterranean, iTTL it will have to go 5 times that to get to the closest of the Industrialized areas (Kenya?).

Not directly I don't think, but you can use oil to generate electricity and then use that electricity in an electric furnace to produce steel. Given their overall situation, I suspect Drakia will be big on diesel (and jet) trains, cars and trucks, airplanes, oil-fired power plants, and so on as a way of reserving coal only for applications where you actually need it, and I also suspect that they will be very interested in nuclear and (to a lesser extent) renewable energy sources when they become available. I certainly can't see them passing up the Grand Inga and 39 GW (!) of coal-less and oil-less power generation, for example. Think the '50s and '60s US on an even larger scale, basically.

Carbon still needs to be added for Steel, though, I'm not sure how Electric furnaces do it...

I have no doubt that every Watt of power will be extracted from the Congo. Unfortunately during war, they'll be targets. The question about a dam like that is whether it can be bombed so that it won't produce power in a way that won't kill everyone living below the dam.

Still getting my head around the fact that the lands that the Draka took from Britain are about the size of the Contiguous United States...

 

[the Imperium of Canada]

Rudnikov sounds like some sort of Anti-Stalin given his mass de-industrialization

 

[Workable Goblin]

Carbon still needs to be added for Steel, though, I'm not sure how Electric furnaces do it...

They have graphite electrodes; there's natural graphite in Madagascar, and I suppose you could manufacture it as well.

The question about a dam like that is whether it can be bombed so that it won't produce power in a way that won't kill everyone living below the dam.

The Inga Dams are below the densely populated region of the Congo Basin, and anyway are run-of-the-river dams so have no reservoir to flood downstream areas in the first place. In principle blowing them up wouldn't actually do anything (except prevent them from generating electricity, obviously). In practice you'd probably get some degree of flooding, but it would be rather minor in comparison to something like blowing up Three Gorges.

 

[Born in the USSA]

Rudnikov sounds like some sort of Anti-Stalin given his mass de-industrialization

Does he have a beard but no moustache?

 

[fluttersky]

So Russia neutered it self. Good Job Boys

I think a lot of Russian refugees might turn up in the Drakian Middle East (Syria/Iraq area), as well as maybe the rest of Drakia.

Rather handy, if so.

 

[HonestAbe1809]

Frankly Russia’s going have to deal with a serious disadvantage when rolling for the next war.

 

[naraht]

They have graphite electrodes; there's natural graphite in Madagascar, and I suppose you could manufacture it as well.


The Inga Dams are below the densely populated region of the Congo Basin, and anyway are run-of-the-river dams so have no reservoir to flood downstream areas in the first place. In principle blowing them up wouldn't actually do anything (except prevent them from generating electricity, obviously). In practice you'd probably get some degree of flooding, but it would be rather minor in comparison to something like blowing up Three Gorges.

OK, so that takes care of that issue on the small scale...

Any decent run-of-the-river dams for Hydro in North America?

 

[Workable Goblin]

OK, so that takes care of that issue on the small scale...

Any decent run-of-the-river dams for Hydro in North America?

Yes. A number of the hydroelectric stations of Hydro-Quebec are run-of-the-river, as well as the Columbia's Chief Joseph Dam, though none of them are anywhere close to as large as the Grand Inga (or even Inga III). However, such projects are geographically limited to areas where a reasonably high-flow river falls relatively steeply, so they'll always be a minority of hydro projects. The Congo is unique in this respect because it has steep falls (the Livingstone Falls, which are more rapids) near its mouth while also being a high-flow tropical river. So you have a large amount of water descending very quickly, which is just what you need for a big run-of-river hydro project.

There's quite a bit of hydroelectric potential elsewhere in Africa, of course, on the Nile and so on, possibly further up the Congo as well. I suspect the Drakians will be big into "grand transformations" like Grand Inga, damming the Congo further upstream to form Lake Mega-Chad, draining the Sudd, and so on and so forth; not only would they (at least in principle) create additional resources for them to use, but the fact that most of them would displace indigenous peoples and destroy their ways of life would, I suspect, be considered a bonus.