REDUX: Place In The Sun: What If Italy Joined The Central Powers?

In Germany's defense we can all agree that all the allies they have except Bulgaria are rather incompetent on a military level.
Italy is doing almost the same stuff they did OTL but on the french.
Austria is not doing that great despite not having the Italian front this time and having even destroyed ( @Kaiser Wilhelm the Tenth am correct?) the Serbian army this time ( thanks to the Bulgarian entry and later Italian torpedoes).
I think that's being rather unfavourable to the Habsburg army. The Austrians, OTL and ITTL, are a perfectly competent force that was caught off-guard by the severity of modern war...just like every other army in Europe. Obviously, Redl's betrayal also needs to be accounted for, any army would have trouble if their entire strategy has been known by the enemy before they can even implement it.

In OTL especially, the fact that A-H managed to fight a 4 front war and not collapse is a miracle, and can only be praised, and I'd say that not having the Italian front leading to an actual proper victory in Serbia is perfectly fine writing. I'll be very interested to see how it will impact the Austrian performance against the coming Russian offensive however.
 

pls don't ban me

Monthly Donor
I think that's being rather unfavourable to the Habsburg army. The Austrians, OTL and ITTL, are a perfectly competent force that was caught off-guard by the severity of modern war...just like every other army in Europe. Obviously, Redl's betrayal also needs to be accounted for, any army would have trouble if their entire strategy has been known by the enemy before they can even implement it.

In OTL especially, the fact that A-H managed to fight a 4 front war and not collapse is a miracle, and can only be praised, and I'd say that not having the Italian front leading to an actual proper victory in Serbia is perfectly fine writing. I'll be very interested to see how it will impact the Austrian performance against the coming Russian offensive however.
in my opinion Austria is third by performance in the CP.
their problem is that they have bad equipment and have not done anything to avoid the language barrier problem in the army. Redl also included.
Italy is better than the ottomans only because they have a better navy and equipment, but if they were on par the OE would be better. i never liked the majority of the Italian generals in this period. ESPECIALLY BADOGLIO
 
in my opinion Austria is third by performance in the CP.
their problem is that they have bad equipment and have not done anything to avoid the language barrier problem in the army. Redl also included.
yeah, that's a fair point. The language troubles of the A-H armed forces were...quite something
 

bguy

Donor
And lastly - outlast Germany? Germany doesn’t really need Oil imports or other critical imports save explosive components. And is Germany going to sit on their butts all that time? They can send millions of men or threaten to Suez, to Basra, to Persian border and pressure it to join their alliance. What is Britain going to do? Defeat combined land forces of Germany Austria Italy and Ottomans, all who have no large commitments and can pull all their efforts on a front of their choice.

How would the Central Powers support millions of men advancing on Suez or Basra? I don't believe the Ottoman rail net in Mesopotamia or the Levant was anywhere near developed enough to support such a massive force.

With Russia and France out the food crisis is resolved.

Weren't Russia and Ukraine themselves dependent on food aid in the immediate aftermath of World War 1 though? (Certainly the Russians suffered a major famine in 1921-1922 and IIRC Vidkun Quisling of all people is well thought of in Ukraine for his role in famine relief efforts there in the early '20s.)


Realistically France and Britain would negotiate jointly, give up some less important colonies, negotiate German withdrawal from Belgium and France in exchange for that and probably try to strike some sort of arms limitation treaty to prevent another war if possible.

This I agree with. With France and Russia defeated, the British government will be under intense political pressure from its own people to end the war as soon as possible, and I can't see the US being willing to keep the loans flowing to Britain either once France and Russia are out. Under those circumstances returning Germany's African colonies (with the exception of German Southwest Africa, since the South Africans will go insane if the British try to give that up) and letting Germany have the Congo is a decent deal for the British if it gets the Germans out of Belgium and France.
 
How would the Central Powers support millions of men advancing on Suez or Basra? I don't believe the Ottoman rail net in Mesopotamia or the Levant was anywhere near developed enough to support such a massive force.
Millions of men probably not, enough to make the British in need of brown pants? Probably yes. In any case even total absolute victory against the OE mean that the British Empire had wasted money and equipment for little gain as it will not change the fact that Germany is master of Europe, control the coast right in front of the British Island and is continuing a submarine blocked of the nation while she can obtain material from other sources

Weren't Russia and Ukraine themselves dependent on food aid in the immediate aftermath of World War 1 though? (Certainly the Russians suffered a major famine in 1921-1922 and IIRC Vidkun Quisling of all people is well thought of in Ukraine for his role in famine relief efforts there in the early '20s.)
Yes but there were also a nasty civil war goin on, so food production and distribution was...difficult at the time, plus even before the revolution the biggest problem for Russia food (and everything else) was distribution
 
You know it's bad when you need to create an pidgin for your armed forces to communicate and understand orders.
... do you have another idea what they should have done?
... aside 'force' teaching everyone one language?
... thereby violating most of the peoples ethnical/national feelings?
... with rtaher unwanted results in acceptance of being part of the empire?
 
It definitely feels weird that the British would even want to hold up negotiations over colonies. From their point of view the colonies are easy useful leverage not just in the present, but for the future since the Central Powers' colonies are always going to be very vulnerable to the British and largely remain only at their sufferance.

Thus in exchange for concessions that aren't really one they get concessions where it actually matters, so if anything I see the British trying to bait both Germans and Italians into taking more colonies instead of anything in Europe itself.
 
it's literally this:

It was never that bad. Officers received language training and knew at least the basics needed to command the men. Are they going to be able to explain to a peasant from Galicia the elaborate strategic situation on the eastern front and have him resolve logistics? No. But then again he doesn’t have to. People in positions needed to make such decisions or have such knowledge would know German or Hungarian and definitely French for officers too. Telling a private. Go there, take position, hide is easy.

How would the Central Powers support millions of men advancing on Suez or Basra? I don't believe the Ottoman rail net in Mesopotamia or the Levant was anywhere near developed enough to support such a massive force.



Weren't Russia and Ukraine themselves dependent on food aid in the immediate aftermath of World War 1 though? (Certainly the Russians suffered a major famine in 1921-1922 and IIRC Vidkun Quisling of all people is well thought of in Ukraine for his role in famine relief efforts there in the early '20s.)




This I agree with. With France and Russia defeated, the British government will be under intense political pressure from its own people to end the war as soon as possible, and I can't see the US being willing to keep the loans flowing to Britain either once France and Russia are out. Under those circumstances returning Germany's African colonies (with the exception of German Southwest Africa, since the South Africans will go insane if the British try to give that up) and letting Germany have the Congo is a decent deal for the British if it gets the Germans out of Belgium and France.
They don’t have to support millions at a time. They just have the ability to send millions there. Say a 150k soldiers some die, send more, send more and send more. Just having those men free is enough power to tilt calculations in neighboring states such as Persia.

Civil war. Not exactly farming time.

Colonies for Germany have shown nothing. They’re at mercy of Royal navy and will remain so. Britain can easily afford Germany to have those in exchange for tangible gains in Europe. If war breaks out again Britain knows it can take those colonies at whim.
 
It was never that bad. Officers received language training and knew at least the basics needed to command the men. Are they going to be able to explain to a peasant from Galicia the elaborate strategic situation on the eastern front and have him resolve logistics? No. But then again he doesn’t have to. People in positions needed to make such decisions or have such knowledge would know German or Hungarian and definitely French for officers too. Telling a private. Go there, take position, hide is easy.
Yep, the officers corps members were required to know different languances to at least command various different ethnicity...unfortunely the greater bulk of them died during the first year of war and a lot of the new corp were on loan from the German army
 

bguy

Donor
They don’t have to support millions at a time. They just have the ability to send millions there. Say a 150k soldiers some die, send more, send more and send more. Just having those men free is enough power to tilt calculations in neighboring states such as Persia.

Except the British can also send a constant stream of soldiers to the region. (They aren't having to keep an army in France anymore after all.) And the British can more easily sustain a large army in the Mid-East than the Central Powers can because the British control the seaways.

Civil war. Not exactly farming time.

Sure, but that still means Germany isn't getting any meaningful amount of food from Russia and Ukraine anytime soon.
 
There seems to be a consensus about how many colonies Germany might be able to keep ITTL. Looks like I need to revise my thinking for when the peace comes. I'm imagining something like: in exchange for concessions regarding Belgian independence and neutrality, Britain pulls its troops out of Tanganyika, but South Africa refuses to give up Namibia. France, meanwhile, was forced to sign away its occupation of Togo and Kamerun but Germany had no way to actually reach the territories until peace was made with Britain: the UK now acquiesces and lets Germany resume control once all troops are withdrawn to the agreed line in Europe (the Meuse?) Italy, meanwhile, gets all border disputes in Libya resolved to its satisfaction (not like it matters much with the Senussi out of hand).

Curious to know what you think and thanks for your feedback.
 
There seems to be a consensus about how many colonies Germany might be able to keep ITTL. Looks like I need to revise my thinking for when the peace comes. I'm imagining something like: in exchange for concessions regarding Belgian independence and neutrality, Britain pulls its troops out of Tanganyika, but South Africa refuses to give up Namibia. France, meanwhile, was forced to sign away its occupation of Togo and Kamerun but Germany had no way to actually reach the territories until peace was made with Britain: the UK now acquiesces and lets Germany resume control once all troops are withdrawn to the agreed line in Europe (the Meuse?) Italy, meanwhile, gets all border disputes in Libya resolved to its satisfaction (not like it matters much with the Senussi out of hand).

Curious to know what you think and thanks for your feedback.
Maybe the Germans push to get Gabon out of France.
 
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Is there any point in the Entente holding onto the Italian colonies post-war? Especially if the Italians are on the winning side I doubt they would be made to concede any territory (especially considering it sounds like you don't plan to give them much european territory).
 
There seems to be a consensus about how many colonies Germany might be able to keep ITTL. Looks like I need to revise my thinking for when the peace comes. I'm imagining something like: in exchange for concessions regarding Belgian independence and neutrality, Britain pulls its troops out of Tanganyika, but South Africa refuses to give up Namibia. France, meanwhile, was forced to sign away its occupation of Togo and Kamerun but Germany had no way to actually reach the territories until peace was made with Britain: the UK now acquiesces and lets Germany resume control once all troops are withdrawn to the agreed line in Europe (the Meuse?) Italy, meanwhile, gets all border disputes in Libya resolved to its satisfaction (not like it matters much with the Senussi out of hand).

Curious to know what you think and thanks for your feedback.
Give Austria Hungary Djibouti so they and Italy can resume their god given destiny of grabbing each other by the neck.

I think it’s a good basis although what SA wants getting trampled on would make for a more interesting peace. As would flushing Japan down the drain for sake of gains in Europe by Britain. I dont think Germany can afford not to get something out of it for Ottomans and Austria tho.
 
There seems to be a consensus about how many colonies Germany might be able to keep ITTL. Looks like I need to revise my thinking for when the peace comes. I'm imagining something like: in exchange for concessions regarding Belgian independence and neutrality, Britain pulls its troops out of Tanganyika, but South Africa refuses to give up Namibia. France, meanwhile, was forced to sign away its occupation of Togo and Kamerun but Germany had no way to actually reach the territories until peace was made with Britain: the UK now acquiesces and lets Germany resume control once all troops are withdrawn to the agreed line in Europe (the Meuse?) Italy, meanwhile, gets all border disputes in Libya resolved to its satisfaction (not like it matters much with the Senussi out of hand).

Curious to know what you think and thanks for your feedback.

Basically colonial wise with a UK that use diplomacy to get some semblance of balance of power:

Germany: get back Tanganyka, Kamerun and Togo but not Namibia and his pacific holdings (neither Japan or Australia will want to give them back) and in exchange of assurance regarding Belgium independece and neutrality got Congo.
Italy: Libya is enlarged (basically OTL plus the Aouzou strip) and sure it will need to be pacified still with hindsight Italy is an a better position than OTL and in general with meager gain Italy can't permit to let anything slip from his hand so...it will suck being a Senussi; regarding the colonies in the horn of Africa well depend on the author but is probable that will be given back in exchange of moderation plus something (again most probably Jubaland and some OTL border adjustment between Eritrea and Djibuti, very cheap but it's showy.
Regarding Tunisia, well it will be one of the primary objective of the italian diplomacy and if it can't be gained at least the demilitarization of the border with Libya and serious protection for the italian minority will be demanded as some border adjustment, basically a return of the original pre 1892 border between Libya and Tunisia

Regarding a treaty extremely offensive for Italy in term of gain, well OTL WWII treaty between Italy and France in 1940 https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistizio_di_Villa_Incisa
Only real addendum is that Nice will be really really hard to deny to the italians, too big offense and France will not really capable of resist, frankly this type of treaty is ok only if Germany decide to f..k the italians just for the lulz and because it seem that they are not needed as ally as they have this military juggernaut and pinnacle of internal stability of A-H and the OE at their side
 
Give Austria Hungary Djibouti so they and Italy can resume their god given destiny of grabbing each other by the neck.

I think it’s a good basis although what SA wants getting trampled on would make for a more interesting peace. As would flushing Japan down the drain for sake of gains in Europe by Britain. I dont think Germany can afford not to get something out of it for Ottomans and Austria tho.
Ottoman gain will be against Russia (OTL Brest- Litivosk) but i doubt that the British will not demand some enlargement of their protectorate of Kuwait at Iraq expense and the recognition of the independece of the Kingdom of Hejaz.
A-H will also get her gain from Russia but also Serbia and Montenegro
 
Germany: get back Tanganyka, Kamerun and Togo but not Namibia and his pacific holdings (neither Japan or Australia will want to give them back) and in exchange of assurance regarding Belgium independece and neutrality got Congo.
Like I commented earlier, throw Gabon in for Germany and at least getting back their concession in Tsingtao.
 
So if I may way in on all my thoughts for the future with the current state of affairs.
Going chronological order.
But need to establish things first.
Pre the Ligurian battle
The French had 12 pre+semi dreadnought (correction a lot more then that but these are the ones that mattered)
note not great ships but pretty good hitting power I would argue on the heavier side then the Italians, relative amour in some of the older ships had slightly better armour then their counterparts counterparts
They were however, dreadfully slow however only 2 capitol ships on the italian fleet were as slow as the majority of these vessels. The Ammiraglio di Saint Bon-class battleship at 18 knots which lines up with what the French were capable of with theirs otherwise the Italians nearly always had the speed advantage. And that specific class was used as a depot and support vessel for the dreadnoughts by this time which lines up well with what I will be discussing
The Italians had 8 pre-dreadnoughts
As I already mentioned much faster, typically they were able to keep pace with the other dreadnoughts at 20-22 knots. Decent fire power but somewhat lack more general purpose. Armour varied between ships but consistent on them the French varied tiny bit more.
In regards of the dreadnoughts we have discussed in great regards so I shall keep it brief italy had 5 France had 4 (for the Ligurian battle it would have been 64, 12 inches to 40)
So totals were 16-13 capital ships this is not including Italy's ironclads they kept.


From what was said while the battle of the Ligurian Sea was a French victory without a doubt with them sinking a quite valuable dreadnought you did say they lost a fair bit you mentioned that the Voltaire was lost, wouldn't be surprised more were with the disparity between guns and the fact you gave the feeling it was a lot more even . Either way that may have set the next battle so let's assume they lost 1 and it was just a French victory even if at a cost. Pretty tame engagement

Then we have the battle with 1 Voltaire down and another on assignment that leaves then with 15 Battleships for the fleet and 13 assuming no other losses for Italy. Now we know how the battle played out 3 dreadnoughts lost. Now you have mentioned that the French naval fleet has 8 Battleships remaining I am unsure if that includes the new ones coming off the line. I assume you are not including them in that statement so by the end they should have 10 Battleships once the Bretagne ships are ready. but that does mean they lost 8 ships in that battle alone possibly 10 if you were including the new ships ( I hope not the poor French). Now if I was to suspect any more Battleships losses it would be the Ammiraglio di Saint Bon-class as it would be too slow and loiter where the other slower French vessels could pick them off. As too why these losses happened easy. They would be too slow the Italians could simply use their speed to seperate the dreadnoughts from the rest then simply pick away. This becomes even worse when you factor in italian mas and subs it would be like sharks circling.

Either way this battle was an unmitigated disaster. Now this isn't to say it could be worse. In this type of battle I will be honest could of very well resulted in complete kneecapping of the French fleet. But from now on assuming those two ships were sunk then the next engagement would be 10 French to 11 italian capitol ships. the new Bretagne are counted then it's 8 to 11 ( once again hope they aren't counted).
I couldn't understate how bloody precarious this situation for the French is. Another engagement without reinforcement would likely see a good portion more or depending on how badly the French fuck up the whole fleet sunk. The reason being is the Italians could just repeat the same process as described above used speed to separate the two ships then basically concentrate on the dreadnoughts while the other vessels do their best to insulate and disperse the older ships. With the gun disparity it is not going to end well for France though Italy would take an absolute beating to do so.

But that is all details to be decided later.

Onto the meat of my thoughts.

The results of the naval battle and my thoughts on the current ground campaign. So I have mentioned a bit my thoughts, first is how this changes the naval balance which until Britain can reinforce and if it does is decidedly in cp favour. The next thing is these battles I would argue would have killed the idea of fleet in being. The concept that you can use the threat to force them back without overwhelming odds just doesn't work, not just that they have illustrated that decisive battle can achieve tangible and successful results which is very important because with Germany and Britain looking on they will come to a lot more aggressive conclusions, for Germany this an example of a smaller force successfully bringing down a larger. For Britain it would be thought these cp navies need to be nipped an initiative taken back lest they force a battle Britain doesn't want. Because the alternative is pulling back and that would massively hurt the blockade. So this will encourage much more aggressive and risky gambling to put the other party away. Which for me with how precarious things are will do more harm for Britain then Germany. Then we have the Med naval front, where I will tackle the Austrian fleet. With how Austria is doing I would argue there is no way they can remain in Trieste but at the same time they won't go to battle with their fleet unless kicking and screaming. Something I doubt italy is willing to push heavily for. Not just that I think everyone is aware that even with Austria atm having the largest capital fleet in the med it will not last post war. Not just that but the Austrian vessels were small with low stability, poor ventilation of turrets, very heavy rudder resistance which if laid at anything more then 10 degrees could cause a heavy list, plus there is little space between the mine armour and some of ammunition magazines which caused the sinking of one of their ships. All in all at a glance they were fine designs which is probably why some called them great ships but there was a lot of niggling design and structural issues which ultimately crippled its quality. But back on topic they needed to do something so as to not look like they were coasting. My recommendation would the they redeploy their fleet to an italian port in the south to protect the Adriatic at its mouth. This does multiple things first it shows they aren't inactive which is especially important when they are struggling with the ground war and second they can deploy in a more aggressive manner which can scare the entente and force them to peel more ships away from the north sea and third less sea to patrol while placating the Italians. All of this while not risking a single ship. It is In my opinion quite viable because it was already agreed upon when discussions on a joint fleet happened the only thing they argued over was who would lead. That isn't an issue they aren't joint. Instead they are just basing there. This would place Britain in an interesting position with 3 options, send nothing and cp controls the Mediterranean unlikely in my opinion, next is they send 8 large vessels and their respective support to replace the French vessels. This is quite possible but risks there being another fleet engagement and with the current situation italy is a lot more aggressive and perceived as much with their fleet of you combined this with an Austrian redeployment then I think the entente may be quite panicked to really adopt this lax of a move because on the case they do link up the entente will be lacking the needed numbers to combat them as it would be 21 vs 24. More likely they seek to gain advantage to ward off fleets so a deployment of 12 ships which would make it 25-24 which is a large enough deployment to scare away any engagement. Why is this well simple we as the audience know that neither the Italians or Austrians are willing to exchange but the entente don't know that and from their perspective they have been quite aggressive. Something that in their minds payed massive dividends.

One thing is di revel will be untouchable from now on.

This will ripple heavily into jutland so honestly I am not going to attempt to see how that plays out other then Britain willing a lot fewer ships which is vital i believe to the engangement. I wish you luck my friend it will be the battle of the ages.

In regards of the land war it ofc is a bloody thing, however I disagree this will be like the isonzo campaign. Simply put the material goals of the campaign are different, in otl cadorna was convinced he could break the Austrian lines 11 battles later and horrific offensive losses he was, to bad for him capporetto ended that possibility. Here cadorna for all his aggression isn't looking to explicitly crack the line but run I dry as such the emphasis for the next commander will be to keep engagement but unlike otl where he was willing to take extreme losses for potential breakthroughs he will instead just go after blood as such the French will know no peace but they likely won't face the full force just yet until it looks like the north may start to falter which from how Wilhelm the tenth has described it will likely be near the end of the year early next. Once he sees weakness otl cadorna will be out to play and the italian blood will flow aplenty the only issue is so will the French and I suspect the French won't have the men. Which may mean cadorna gets what he wants a major breakthrough near the end, which will likely unravel the French front. I will say this cadorna is very unlikely to have the incredibly tainted perception of him we have of him otl.

End of war
I somalia is lost no doubts about it. However, Eritrea will likely be a mess for whoever occupies it because it had a friendlier relationship with Italy which will complicate any occupation
In terms of end goals
1st Nice
No way they wouldn't get this it is the center point of the French irredentia.
2nd: Savoy or Corsica
Both have their positives and negatives both have value up to the French on which one they are willing to fight more for. But if one gets occupied then both are ending up in italian hands.
3rd: Tunsia
Many have said their piece it's seizure by the French was a humiliation and italy getting it would be strategic win however irrendentia such as nice savoy and Corsica will always rank higher in goals.
4th getting Eritrea back
5th somalia
6th any additional colonies.

Overall IMHO italy will likely get all the irredentia off France the treatment very similar to otl Germany as by the end of the war they just won't have anything else left and everyone will know it . There is unlikely to be a stab in the back myth for France mainly because they indisputably lost and it wouldn't be the first. However, the colony's are a big asterisks may recommend that colonies or reparations may be the choice Germany forces on them. Britain is an interesting one because their economy just wouldn't be able to wait out Germany especially if France falls example would be they likely have to abandon the med unless their willing to split fleets to fight everyone. one the accounting side of things they just aren't receiving the same resources they were OTL from america which completely cripples their long term capability to combat germany in a long game

Anyways some of my thoughts
 
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