Same reason OTL that Germany wasn't turned into a pastoral nation. Long-term it's almost impossible to do, They can attempt it but here's hoping that the germans are smart enough to go for an EU approach after round two instead
Place In the Sun: What If Italy Joined the Central Powers? (1.0)
- Thread starter Kaiser Wilhelm the Tenth
- Start date
1. If the US and Britain had been on board with pastoralizing Germany, it could have happened, it's just a matter of sitting on them forever and eating the civilian casualties.
2. An EU-ish approach is easier with a bunch of smaller states dependent on you.
The European Steel and coal commission was designed around the idea that if you integrate the economies that are necessary for war, war is less likely, and that was done with just Italy, France, Benelux, and West Germany. Yes, France was the big dog there, but it wasn't engulfing the other economies. It proved so successful it slowly grew and expanded until the EU that we know today. The Civilian and military casualties are going to be intolerable. The occupied territory is just too close to home, media will get out how bad it is (or just word of mouth), and as economies and technology develop human capital will be worth a hell of a lot more than the coal under them. Long term occupation is a losing game unless they can be integrated into the whole nation, which is not going to happen unless the Germans engage in wide-scale ethnic cleansing.
The Germans wouldn't have to enforce it by force forever. Those who want to deflect blame for their mistakes from themselves are very capable of selectively remembering history. Just like Austria in OTL, if France goes really nasty in TTL then after a generation or two of seperation Brittany and other regions will invent a national identity for themselves and teach their children how ages ago the Evil Imperialists in Ile de France forced their ancestors under it's jackboot, so really they were it's first victims, etc etc.
Where do you think he'd escape to? I mean, he could sneak across the border into unoccupied France once their civil war is done, but he might want to go a bit further than that.
One of the far-afield French colonies, perhaps? Algeria or even Guyana?
Guyana would work, the Germans can't catch him there.
Very good points there. Since Nord-Pas-de-Calais wants to pretend as much as possible that it's not actually part of Belgium, the Flemish and Walloons are more or less on equal footing. I could see Antwerp getting the Olypmics if things go right.
With regards to annexation into Holland... I don't really know. I suppose it's possible, but it would require British and German consent. And would Amsterdam really want to take them on? However, you might be right and it could be plausible- I don't really know.
Noted. A Balkanised France would certainly be fun, as would an east-west or north-south split which doesn't even pretend to be based on ethnicity (viz, East/West Germany and North/South Korea)
That would be another possibility; German military annexation, throwing land at Belgium, and Breton independence would leave France a shadow of itself.
There are certainly no ethnic lines upon which to do so- but that wasn't an issue in Germany or Korea. Regardless, your point is valid.
And as we know, designing borders for their visual appeal is always a great idea, no?
Again, this is very much a possibility. If the Allies could carve up Germany for no other reason than realpolitik, something similar can happen in France.
Great points from both of you. With regards to a sort of alt-EU, it would probably look more like OTL's Warsaw Pact in which German troops are stationed on the soil of the member states, the governments are subject to Berlin to varying degrees, and Germany is very obviously the supreme state.
Excellent points there. As mentioned above, such an integration would be more about ensuring Germany's dominance than maintaining peace for altruism's sake... but the effect would be the same.
We saw in the update how something similar to an alt-Troubles or even Israel-Palestine is taking place in the occupied regions and a solution will have to be found there eventually. Otherwise, it might end up almost like Vietnam: occupying northern France will just get too bloody for minimal gain. Of course, such a climb down would be seen as a massive concession to France and I can't see any German government swallowing it for decades. It's a no-win situation.
Breton and even Basque/Catalonian nationalism might well be trumpeted by Germany in this world. One fewer place they have to put boots in.
Great point. Yes, I imagine a second defeat to Germany would end very badly for the British. However, as of 1917/1918, they aren't really thinking about going to war again. A lot can change in decades, and I have multiple ideas for Great Britain in the future. Time will tell.....
Dear Readers,
Again, I'd just like to reiterate what I said the other day: Lent begins on Wednesday and so I shall be going fishing until 3 April. No new updates or comment responses till then. When I return, we will conclude the Danubian War. Thank you all for reading and commenting on Place In the Sun. I love this timeline very much and couldn't have done it without you!
-Kaiser Wilhelm the Tenth
Again, I'd just like to reiterate what I said the other day: Lent begins on Wednesday and so I shall be going fishing until 3 April. No new updates or comment responses till then. When I return, we will conclude the Danubian War. Thank you all for reading and commenting on Place In the Sun. I love this timeline very much and couldn't have done it without you!
-Kaiser Wilhelm the Tenth
considering how politicised language is in belgium i would not be surprised if they get under german pressure to give dutch at least equal status to french, but maybe even primary statu, (but at least primary within flanders, which will stir flemish nationalism & conflicts with the walloons. Because i dont think the language issues will go away, on tjhe contrary, the belgian govt has to avoid to look pro-french at any cost. i do expect the french to try and stir trouble in wallonia later on (sudetenland analog)
amsterdam? the Hague you mean, that is where dutch government is located.
it is a bit dual, on one hand they wouldn't want the extra addition of catholics, but i think by that time that fear will be lessening, plus there were quite a few belgian refugees in NL during GW1, and that may have lowered the anxiety about them a bit.
and if the internal stresses are enough to fracture the country, and flanders wants to be part of NL out of free will i hard doubt the hague will refuse them.
and why would it need britsh consent? i mean they lost the war, the belgian protection thing of otl is no longer relevant.
will think a bit about a few things about nl that could be butterflies.
good fishing, and don't fall in the water
edit: further thought on the language issue made me realise that there will be a high chance that dutch will be used to merge the french flanders areas with their flemish brethren, it is a bit easier in this point in time, since flemish is somewhat more widely spoken then currently. using dutch as standard will be a good way to cause a permanent separation from france of these areas .
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I wish you well on your fishing trip, @Kaiser Wilhelm the Tenth
Good luck on your fishing trip! I thank you for writing such a good TL, could i suggest the idea of writing a wholesome chapter? I was reading a little about the Christmas Eve of 1914 and i think some of those type of moments could very well be implemented in the TL for a little change of pace of terrorism, genocide and those types of stuff, after all the world is harsh but it can be nice as well! And again, thank you for writing such a magnificent TL.
I didn't say long term occupation was a particularly good idea, but you can do anything if you're willing to sit on a country hard enough.
Full brutal occupation means women and children in concentration camps until the rebels give up. Camps where they will die, if only from poor sanitation.
Having everyone in his own village or town where they just have to pretend to be nice to the local german troops is a bit different. It is similar to what was going on in OTL WW2, of course, but I don't think those occupations were going to work on the long term either; some places resistance would stay low enough that eventualy it could be demilitarized (e.g. the Netherlands), some it was already mostly demilitarized (e.g. Denmark), and some places it would probably get more brutal as time went on (e.g. OTL France). But what you've sketched so far suggests an occupation that reduces the hostage-taking brutality with no apparent transition to an otherwise more 'livable' methodology - which seems strange.
The other possibility might be the formation of a "collaborationist" or Vichy-type political administration. The names and faces are French but the decision making is done by bureaucrats working for the Germans. Historically, this will often keep things relatively stable so long as no internal or external crisis erupts that upsets the status quo. Of course to really work well, you need to set up a police state to keep an eye on dissidents who might want to create such a crisis.
It didn't happen in OTL because of the diplomatic rift between the Western Allies and the Soviets. In this example, there's no possible Soviets - the Americans are across an ocean (and given the obvious vengeful motives of the French, are likely to favor Germany if forced to pick a side), the British are too weak, and the Italians are both too weak and friendly. There's literally nobody to stop the Germans from dividing France however they please.
The French themselves? If the 20th and 21st century has taught us anything about occupation, is that it's a matter of when it ends not if. We don't even need to look that far from France and Germany. France spent the first half of the 20th century trying to occupy and make the Saarland a french colony in Europe and every time they did it radicalized the native population, and was an economic loss for the French government.
I would like to say the Germanys could certainly try with a dividing France option, but outside of regions like Brittany, it's largely ethnically, and culturally homogenous. Outside of shaving some smaller territory off the edges any divides would last long once a barrel of a gun to keeping them apart. The only reason the Germans might have some reason to do it is that they don't have OTL knowledge in the first place and it will not end well for them
You have a will power I do not. Good luck on your Lenten obligations
you forget the south-east, which is basque
but it is a lot less homogenous than you might think.
just look at this map of french languages:
Languages of France - Wikipedia
Yeah, in an eventual minimization of France Roussillon and the Basque country could be given to Spain, with some sort of Brittany..
I suggested an artificial Occitania before, but since it seems Italy and France's border will be on the Rhone in the future it looks like the French are in for Something much worse.
I suggested an artificial Occitania before, but since it seems Italy and France's border will be on the Rhone in the future it looks like the French are in for Something much worse.