Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons.
Churchill made so many great quotes, you could make a book out of them
Oh they did!
Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
Churchill made so many great quotes, you could make a book out of them
Oh they did!
MacArthur gets rough treatment on this board, and many of his actions throughout his life are controversial, but he was undoubtedly a great general, and leader of men. He had a brilliant, but increasingly ridged mind. That rigidity of mind is unfortunately not uncommon for many great men in history. Sometimes they start believing in their own legend and think their infallible. Thats what the ancient Greeks called hubris. It wasn't new then, and it will never be old in the future. It's just part of the human condition.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Oh no
Poof, no more tanks, phew, that was a close one!
and
as well as
Yes, the tanks are back, but wait...
and
Poof, no more tanks, phew, that was a close one!
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Ouch! you nailed me Anarch King of Dipsodes:
Especially as I seem to recall one of the problems why the Japanese didn't formally declare war on the USA, was the coded text sent from Tokyo to the Japanese embassy was so long, it took ages to receive and decode. A complete Order Of Battle would easily be of a similar length.
In my defence, my text doesn't say specifically, it had taken 20 minutes, but it could imply that, and I should have worded that much better.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
I think it was down near the River Muar, that the Australian 2/4 anti tank regt went into action with their 2 pounder AT gun, which was the same gun as found in the Valentine. Japanese tank armour was so thin, that the 2 pounder round simply went right through. It highlights a problem with the gun, when used in the Valentine, and other tanks, that there was no HE round produced for it, at least not until much later, off the top of my head, 1943.
MWI 41061218 A Milk Run
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Thursday 12 June;
Lieutenant Honda looked left and then right, and grunted a note of satisfaction, both of the other two aircraft of his flight were maintaining station. He was immensely proud of the fact he’d been chosen as the new flight leader, and he was determined to vindicate that decision. Before take-off, he’d repeatedly stressed to both pilots of a need to maintain station, and despite both of them being experienced, it had worried him. However, he now realised that his fears were mis founded, and indeed his own crew were becoming a team again. His co-pilot could probably have his own plane now, while his radio operator was top notch. The navigator/bombardier although quite new, was almost redundant, flying in formation with the Chutai, everyone relied on the squadron leader’s aircraft, but he thought the boy could get them home if he had to. The two gunners, well he wasn’t expecting them to have anything to do, a year ago maybe, but these days it was uncontested.
The navigator gave him an update, about 200 miles to go before Chungking, and he looked out at the terrain below, the green foliage couldn’t hide the harshness of the Daba Mountains, an unforgiving land. Still another 50 miles and they’d be in the Szechwan Basin. The weather was looking good, not too much cloud, they could hope for a good fix on their target. Not that it mattered much though, they were carrying 50kg incendiary bombs, just hitting the city would suffice.
His radio operator leant forward, a message from Lt Col Kojiro, warning of the first adjustment, which would route them around a number of anti-aircraft batteries. His navigator agreed on the course change, well he would wouldn’t he, the signal flashed, and they turned. Another 15 minutes and a second adjustment, bringing them back on course. Time to reduce height now to a nice 12,000 ft, hold course and wait on the leader. Some tension was building now, they’d been told not to expect any enemy fighters, and were flying unescorted, so if there were some, now would be the time, but none appeared.
Some flak now, sporadic, ineffective, feeble, he must concentrate, maintain station, watch the leader. The leading Chutai was releasing their bombs, wait for it, the second Chutai’s turn now, not yet, keep an eye on the leader, as was his bombardier doing, no doubt, and now, bombs away. He felt the loss of weight through his controls, the plane rising before he brought her back on station. Below the incendiary bombs were starting indiscriminate fires among the mainly wooden buildings of the city. Another turn being signalled, and course adjusted, homeward leg.
The flak had long gone, as had all the talk about how well they had done, now it was the monotony of the flight back home. Chatter on the radio, a Type 97 Heavy Bomber was having engine failure, slowing down, on one engine now, the rest of her section staying with her. Hell, glad it wasn’t his section, nearly 400 miles still to go. He looked right and left, yes both his section aircraft were with him and flying fine. A relief came over him, stay in formation, follow the leader.
They were back, Yuncheng, home to the 60th Sentai, a few glasses of Saki, a nice hot bath, and a woman. Careful with the landing, he could see someone had made a bad landing, skid marks off to the left of the runway, the Ki-21 intact, but looking worse for wear, must have been a problem with a wheel. Easy does it, touch down, ooh a little bunny hop, and they were down, easing back now, taxiing over to their stand, the ground crew waiting for them. That’s it, engines off, mission completed, a milk run.
Lieutenant Honda looked left and then right, and grunted a note of satisfaction, both of the other two aircraft of his flight were maintaining station. He was immensely proud of the fact he’d been chosen as the new flight leader, and he was determined to vindicate that decision. Before take-off, he’d repeatedly stressed to both pilots of a need to maintain station, and despite both of them being experienced, it had worried him. However, he now realised that his fears were mis founded, and indeed his own crew were becoming a team again. His co-pilot could probably have his own plane now, while his radio operator was top notch. The navigator/bombardier although quite new, was almost redundant, flying in formation with the Chutai, everyone relied on the squadron leader’s aircraft, but he thought the boy could get them home if he had to. The two gunners, well he wasn’t expecting them to have anything to do, a year ago maybe, but these days it was uncontested.
The navigator gave him an update, about 200 miles to go before Chungking, and he looked out at the terrain below, the green foliage couldn’t hide the harshness of the Daba Mountains, an unforgiving land. Still another 50 miles and they’d be in the Szechwan Basin. The weather was looking good, not too much cloud, they could hope for a good fix on their target. Not that it mattered much though, they were carrying 50kg incendiary bombs, just hitting the city would suffice.
His radio operator leant forward, a message from Lt Col Kojiro, warning of the first adjustment, which would route them around a number of anti-aircraft batteries. His navigator agreed on the course change, well he would wouldn’t he, the signal flashed, and they turned. Another 15 minutes and a second adjustment, bringing them back on course. Time to reduce height now to a nice 12,000 ft, hold course and wait on the leader. Some tension was building now, they’d been told not to expect any enemy fighters, and were flying unescorted, so if there were some, now would be the time, but none appeared.
Some flak now, sporadic, ineffective, feeble, he must concentrate, maintain station, watch the leader. The leading Chutai was releasing their bombs, wait for it, the second Chutai’s turn now, not yet, keep an eye on the leader, as was his bombardier doing, no doubt, and now, bombs away. He felt the loss of weight through his controls, the plane rising before he brought her back on station. Below the incendiary bombs were starting indiscriminate fires among the mainly wooden buildings of the city. Another turn being signalled, and course adjusted, homeward leg.
The flak had long gone, as had all the talk about how well they had done, now it was the monotony of the flight back home. Chatter on the radio, a Type 97 Heavy Bomber was having engine failure, slowing down, on one engine now, the rest of her section staying with her. Hell, glad it wasn’t his section, nearly 400 miles still to go. He looked right and left, yes both his section aircraft were with him and flying fine. A relief came over him, stay in formation, follow the leader.
They were back, Yuncheng, home to the 60th Sentai, a few glasses of Saki, a nice hot bath, and a woman. Careful with the landing, he could see someone had made a bad landing, skid marks off to the left of the runway, the Ki-21 intact, but looking worse for wear, must have been a problem with a wheel. Easy does it, touch down, ooh a little bunny hop, and they were down, easing back now, taxiing over to their stand, the ground crew waiting for them. That’s it, engines off, mission completed, a milk run.
Ramontxo
Donor
Just to tell you that there is a long discussion in this threads about when, and how, did the Australians (dont know enough to differenciate between Militia, Regular Army etc) got an HE shell for the Two Pounder
Even if the British had 20-30 Valetine tanks in Malaya it wouldn't make much difference. British doctrine was road bound, and when the Japanese would cross country, and jungle terrain the tanks supply lines would be cut, so they'd fall back, or be abandoned when they ran out of fuel. A few squadrons of Hurricanes won't make any difference ether. You have to change so many things for the British to have a chance in Malaya that it's not very realistic to think you could just change a few, so they can win. Learning how to fight the Japanese in the jungle took years of hard-won lessons in Malaya, and Burma. Even in 1944/45 it took massive material superiority to defeat them in the CBI.
To have some new leaders just intuitively hit on what was needed before the fact isn't realistic. Doctrinal thinking, and institutional memory takes a long time to develop, and isn't easily changed, or forgotten, especially without a good reason. The usual reason is suffering a defeat. The British had won WWI, and their experience in colonial conflicts showed them their doctrine was the correct one. What would move them in mid 1941 to suddenly realize they had the whole thing wrong, or that they needed special tactics just for jungle warfare, suited to Malaya?
Not just firepower wise. Japanese anti tank rounds would bounce off them like baseballs.
I looked at that idea, Arthur was best friends and past shipmates of Thomas Hart. I could see 1940 Hart as Commander Asiatic Fleet and MacArthur as Deputy Chief of Naval Operations, making sure the Asiatic Fleet is better equipped and prepared.. Definitely a good Commander for the 16th Naval District, perhaps their own fighters to protect Cavite , Olonopngo/Subic Bay and Mirivales.
Have to disagree on tanks, based on OTL Burma, the presence of even a small number of tanks would greatly reduce the ability of the Japanese to trap troops in encirclements. The entrapping roadblocks were easily broken by even a single tank (Stuarts in Burma) during the retreat as the infiltrating troops had no AT capability.
@Fatboy Coxy nice update.
The thing is, the CW have figured out the dangers that infiltrating troops pose to roadbound opponent ITTL. Chapter MWI 41012415 Stewart Makes His Point, with both Gort and Percival in attendance. It took so long IOTL, because Japanese were seen as "superior" in jungle enviroments, something which I doubt we will see ITTL. And most of this TL has had "Tail" wagging the dog, with majority updates concentrating on soft factors. Things like assuring there are no communication mishaps, enough trained drivers, infrastructure being built up, allowing CW forces to fight as effectively as possible, utilising all the advantages they posses to the utmost. It is very bold to assume that IJA forces are going to ever see their numbers approach OTL '44-'45 numbers in theatre. Very, very bold...
Tanks would be useful, extremely so, but the issue remains. What Armoured Unit is availlable to be sent and what did that unit do IOTL? Not to mention the timing, when exactly is that unit going to arrive in theatre, considering that the ships carrying them are going to have to go the long way around Africa. Frankly, does anyone have some more detail on various RTR battalions histories, because there are options, though we need more info, before we start moving them half-way round the world.
As a example, I could propose 49th Battalion RTR, they were equipped with Matilda IIs through 1941, and were possibly (picture on Wiki states that training was ongoing in late October '41) trained enough for combat by late '41. Yet, more detailed information would be nice to have, because I am refusing to rely on Wiki alone, since I am not a savage.
The thing is, the CW have figured out the dangers that infiltrating troops pose to roadbound opponent ITTL. Chapter MWI 41012415 Stewart Makes His Point, with both Gort and Percival in attendance. It took so long IOTL, because Japanese were seen as "superior" in jungle enviroments, something which I doubt we will see ITTL. And most of this TL has had "Tail" wagging the dog, with majority updates concentrating on soft factors. Things like assuring there are no communication mishaps, enough trained drivers, infrastructure being built up, allowing CW forces to fight as effectively as possible, utilising all the advantages they posses to the utmost. It is very bold to assume that IJA forces are going to ever see their numbers approach OTL '44-'45 numbers in theatre. Very, very bold...
Tanks would be useful, extremely so, but the issue remains. What Armoured Unit is availlable to be sent and what did that unit do IOTL? Not to mention the timing, when exactly is that unit going to arrive in theatre, considering that the ships carrying them are going to have to go the long way around Africa. Frankly, does anyone have some more detail on various RTR battalions histories, because there are options, though we need more info, before we start moving them half-way round the world.
As a example, I could propose 49th Battalion RTR, they were equipped with Matilda IIs through 1941, and were possibly (picture on Wiki states that training was ongoing in late October '41) trained enough for combat by late '41. Yet, more detailed information would be nice to have, because I am refusing to rely on Wiki alone, since I am not a savage.
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My view is that the changes of this TL already made are enough to save Singapore. By the point of the surrender, the Japanese were outnumbered and had only around 24 hours of supply left, however Percivil loses his nerve and wants to avoid strategic bombing of the city, so gives up. Here we have Gort, someone who didn't lose his nerve OTL in similar circumstances in France or surrender Malta when it was under actual heavy air bombardment. Therefore really tanks or no tanks I think the necessairy changes have been made to save Singapore, or at least reduce it to a siege rather than a humilating surrender.
Second. Early model M3 Stuarts, and even some M2s, performed well in the Philippines, Burma, Amy’s Guadalcanal. IIRC most of the Stuart losses in the PI and Burma came from poor coordination at blown bridges, mechanical failure, and terrain rather than direct enemy action. The Stuart seemed to have the mobility and firepower to do well in the jungle, and was used to break roadblocks or spearhead counterattacks/breakouts in both areas. There was an Indian Army light tank squadron with Vickers Mk2a India pattern tanks at Singapore, but they seem to have been held back from action.
I do agree there’s no single material solution for the predicament in Malaya, or anywhere else in the Pacific during the first six months of the war. An integrated approach to training, equipping, command relationships, and intelligence combined with interoperability AND material updates was required. But, as others have said already, Percival only has to shift a thin margin to throw Yamashita off. An armored force that’s able to keep 11th Indian from being nearly destroyed at Slim River might result in Percival not withdrawing south of Kuala Lumpur and abandoning Penang. This might stretch things out long enough for reinforcements to even the odds in the air or for the Japanese timetable to be further disrupted.
Slim River turning into a tank versus tank engagement would be mighty entertaining to watch. Imagine Major Shimada's armoured regiment, lopsidedly victorious IOTL, stumbling across British tanks they did not expect to be present.
Given the way Japanese armour has performed so far ITTL it will probably be a very hard day for them if Shimads runs into British armour
And here we are, back at the beginning.
I really want to know, what armored force/British tanks/British armour are we talking about exactly? Please tell me. I wish I was sarcastic, but I really want to know is there an availlable unit to be dispatched to Malaya?
Or some anti tank guns. Squeezing some more 2 pounders out of the UK might be doable? Perhaps instead some Blacker Bombards find their way to Malaya (for comic value and they where given to the Home Guard OTL (Wiki has the timeing as 1941-1942 with 22,000 of the things being made) so not ever considered a front line weapon. Although heavy the could be used for defending a static river line.
Another interesting option would be Livens projectors. Useful for throwing oil drums which ignite on hitting the floor (thankfully not poison gas in WW2) again obsolete but produced in large numbers early in WW2. But would make a mess of a Japanese tank. Again only useful in a static defence. I'm sure I read there was a Chemical Weapons unit based at Singapore so they could already be in theatre. Also there so simple to make could possibly be produced in Country!