List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage

[The_Most_Happy]

But wasn't Spanish throne at the time worth much more than English one?

Depends on your view, I think. To Henry "married six women to get a male heir for my beloved England", I think it the English throne might be worth more. During the similar marriage between Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine, their plan for their sons' inheritances were thus: "Henry II planned to divide his and Eleanor's territories among their three eldest surviving sons: Henry would become King of England and have control of Anjou, Maine, and Normandy; Richard would inherit Aquitaine and Poitiers from his mother; and Geoffrey would become Duke of Brittany through marriage with Constance, heir presumptive of Conan IV."

Aquitaine was not Spain, I acknowledge, but it was still a fairly big deal.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Philip II (1478-1529) Duke of Burgundy, Holy Roman Emperor 1519, m. a) Joanna of Castile (1479-1503) b) Elizabeth of England (1492-1545)

1a) Eleanor (1498-1558) m. Henry VIII (1491-1549) King of England

2a) Charles I (1500-1532) King of Spain, m. Isabella of Portugal (1503-1556)

3a) Isabella (1501-1526) m. Christian II (1481-1559) King of Denmark, Norway and Sweden

4a) Ferdinand (1503)

5b) Margaret (1508-1560) m. Louis II (1506-1526) King of Bohemia and Hungary

6b) Maximilian (1510-1513)

7b) Henry VIII (1513-1550) Holy Roman Emperor 1529, m. Hedwig of Poland (1513-1573)

8b) Mary (1516-1571) m. Frederick (1504-1549) Duke of Saxony

9b) Maximilian (1518-1523)

10b) Philip III (1520-1571) Holy Roman Emperor 1550, m. Mechthild of Bavaria (1532-1565)

 

[isabella]

Tudor Spain under construction:​

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PODs:​

-Elizabeth Tudor (b. 1492) lives.​

-Joanna the Mad dies in Castile in 1503, giving birth to Ferdinand (who also dies). Philip Habsburg remarries to Elizabeth Tudor​

-Henry VII lives longer, thus his son marries Eleanor of Austria instead of CoA. H7, who not only lives longer but also is not distracted by Joanna the Mad, remarries to Margaret of Austria or Joanna of Naples but has no issue.​

-Philip succeedes Maximilian as HRE while Charles rules Spain.​

-Charles dies earlier than IOTL and without surviving issue and is succeeded by Tudor nephew (likely older son of H8 and Eleanor gets Spain while younger one inherits England)​

Philip II (1478-1529) Duke of Burgundy, Holy Roman Emperor 1519, m. a) Joanna of Castile (1479-1503) b) Elizabeth of England (1492-1545)

1a) Eleanor (1498-1558) m. Henry VIII (1491-1549) King of England

2a) Charles I (1500-1532) King of Spain, m. Isabella of Portugal (1503-1556)

3a) Isabella (1501-1526) m. Christian II (1481-1559) King of Denmark, Norway and Sweden

4a) Ferdinand (1503)

5b) Margaret (1508-1560) m. Louis II (1506-1526) King of Bohemia and Hungary

6b) Maximilian (1510-1513)

7b) Henry VIII (1513-1550) Holy Roman Emperor 1529, m. Hedwig of Poland (1513-1573)

8b) Mary (1516-1571) m. Frederick (1504-1549) Duke of Saxony

9b) Maximilian (1518-1523)

10b) Philip III (1520-1571) Holy Roman Emperor 1550, m. Mechthild of Bavaria (1532-1565)

I think who Isabella will go in Portugal NOT Denmark here.

 

[GeorgeIV]

Wonder What Is Going on Here?

Edward IV of England (1442-1483) m. Elizabeth Woodville (1437-1492), Had Issue:

1.Elizabeth Of York (1466) m. Charles VIII of France, Had Issue.
1a. Louis XII of France (1492-1547)
2. Mary Of York (1467-1492) no issue.
3. Cecily of York (1469-1507) m. Henry Tudor, Duke of Somerset and Richmond (1547-1507), had Issue:
3a. Henry, Duke of Somerset and Richmond (1492-1547)
4. King Edward V of England (1470-1483) no issue.
5. Margaret of York (1472) no issue.
6. Richard, Duke Of York (1473-1483) no issue.
7.Anne of York (1475-1511) m. John of The Kalmar Union. Had Issue.
7a. Christian II of Scandinavia (1495-1561)
8.King George I of England (1477-1531) m. Anne of Brittany (1477-1514) had Issue:
8a. King Edward VI of England (1499-1481) m. Mary, Queen of Scots (1501-1583)
9.Catherine of York, (1479-1527) nun.
10. Bridget of York (1480-1512) nun.

 

[CaptainShadow]

Wonder What Is Going on Here?

Edward IV of England (1442-1483) m. Elizabeth Woodville (1437-1492), Had Issue:

1.Elizabeth Of York (1466) m. Charles VIII of France, Had Issue.
1a. Louis XII of France (1492-1547)
2. Mary Of York (1467-1492) no issue.
3. Cecily of York (1469-1507) m. Henry Tudor, Duke of Somerset and Richmond (1547-1507), had Issue:
3a. Henry, Duke of Somerset and Richmond (1492-1547)
4. King Edward V of England (1470-1483) no issue.
5. Margaret of York (1472) no issue.
6. Richard, Duke Of York (1473-1483) no issue.
7.Anne of York (1475-1511) m. John of The Kalmar Union. Had Issue.
7a. Christian II of Scandinavia (1495-1561)
8.King George I of England (1477-1531) m. Anne of Brittany (1477-1514) had Issue:
8a. King Edward VI of England (1499-1481) m. Mary, Queen of Scots (1501-1583)
9.Catherine of York, (1479-1527) nun.
10. Bridget of York (1480-1512) nun.

Under no circumstances is Cecily marrying Tudor.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

I think who Isabella will go in Portugal NOT Denmark here.

True. That would be in final version

 

[isabella]

Wonder What Is Going on Here?

Edward IV of England (1442-1483) m. Elizabeth Woodville (1437-1492), Had Issue:

1.Elizabeth Of York (1466) m. Charles VIII of France, Had Issue.
1a. Louis XII of France (1492-1547)
2. Mary Of York (1467-1492) no issue.
3. Cecily of York (1469-1507) m. Henry Tudor, Duke of Somerset and Richmond (1547-1507), had Issue:
3a. Henry, Duke of Somerset and Richmond (1492-1547)
4. King Edward V of England (1470-1483) no issue.
5. Margaret of York (1472) no issue.
6. Richard, Duke Of York (1473-1483) no issue.
7.Anne of York (1475-1511) m. John of The Kalmar Union. Had Issue.
7a. Christian II of Scandinavia (1495-1561)
8.King George I of England (1477-1531) m. Anne of Brittany (1477-1514) had Issue:
8a. King Edward VI of England (1499-1481) m. Mary, Queen of Scots (1501-1583)
9.Catherine of York, (1479-1527) nun.
10. Bridget of York (1480-1512) nun.

Richmond was an Earldom and would stay as such and NO WAY who Henry Tudor is allowed to marry a royal princess.
Also if Elizabeth married Charles VIII as planned she and her sisters would remain legitimate princesses and that mean Scotland for Cecily and Burgundy for Anne, so John of Denmark would most likely marry as OTL, while Christian II would marry Catherine of York (if you want a match between England and Kalmar)

 

[curlyhairedhippie]

A different Yorkist TL, inspired by my one on the children of the Catholic Monarchs...Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville's children swap genders. Still looking for brides for the Prince of Wales coldsweat and the earl of March...


Edward IV, King of England (b. 1442, d. 1483) m. Elizabeth Woodville (b. 1437*, d. 1492) in 1464, had issue

1) Edward, Prince of Wales (b. 1466) m. ???​

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2) Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk (b. 1467, d. 1482) m. Anne de Mowbry, 8th countess of Norfolk (b. 1472)​

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3) George, Duke of Bedford (b. 1469) m. Maddalena de’Medici (b. 1473)​

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4) Elizabeth (b. 1470) m. Charles VIII, King of France (b. 1470)​

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5) Edmund, earl of Cambridge (b. and d. 1472)​

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6) Cecily (b. 1473) m. James IV Stewart, King of Scots (b. 1473)​

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7) Thomas, Duke of Cambridge (b. 1475) m. Elizabeth Herbert, 3rd Baroness Herbert (b. 1476)​

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8) Jacquetta (b. 1477, d. 1479)​

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9) William, Duke of Gloucester (b. 1478) m. Alice of Middleham, 1st countess of Salisbury (b. 1473*)​

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10) Lionel, Bishop of Ely, later Bishop of Winchester (b. 1480)​

Revisions, based on suggestions here.


Edward IV, King of England (b. 1442, d. 1483) m. Elizabeth Woodville (b. 1437*, d. 1492) in 1464, had issue

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1) Edward, Prince of Wales (b. 1466) m. Isabella of Naples (b. 1470)​

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2) Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk (b. 1467, d. 1482) m. Anne de Mowbry, 8th countess of Norfolk (b. 1472)​

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3) George, Duke of Bedford, iure uxoris Duke of Brittany (b. 1469) m. Isabeau, Duchess of Brittany (b. 1478)​

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4) Elizabeth (b. 1470) m. Charles VIII, King of France (b. 1470)​

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5) Edmund, earl of Cambridge (b. and d. 1472)​

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6) Cecily (b. 1473) m. James IV Stewart, King of Scots (b. 1473)​

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7) Thomas, Duke of Gloucester (b. 1475) m. Alice of Middleham, 1st countess of Salisbury (b. 1473*)​

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8) Jacquetta (b. 1477, d. 1479)​

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9) William, Duke of Hereford (b. 1478) m. Elizabeth Herbert, 3rd Baroness Herbert (b. 1476)​

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10) Lionel, Bishop of Ely, later Bishop of Winchester (b. 1480)​

 

[isabella]

Revisions, based on suggestions here.


Edward IV, King of England (b. 1442, d. 1483) m. Elizabeth Woodville (b. 1437*, d. 1492) in 1464, had issue

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1) Edward, Prince of Wales (b. 1466) m. Isabella of Naples (b. 1470)​

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2) Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk (b. 1467, d. 1482) m. Anne de Mowbry, 8th countess of Norfolk (b. 1472)​

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3) George, Duke of Bedford, iure uxoris Duke of Brittany (b. 1469) m. Isabeau, Duchess of Brittany (b. 1478)​

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4) Elizabeth (b. 1470) m. Charles VIII, King of France (b. 1470)​

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5) Edmund, earl of Cambridge (b. and d. 1472)​

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6) Cecily (b. 1473) m. James IV Stewart, King of Scots (b. 1473)​

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7) Thomas, Duke of Cambridge (b. 1475) m. Elizabeth Herbert, 3rd Baroness Herbert (b. 1476)​

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8) Jacquetta (b. 1477, d. 1479)​

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9) William, Duke of Hereford (b. 1478) m. Alice of Middleham, 1st countess of Salisbury (b. 1473*)​

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10) Lionel, Bishop of Ely, later Bishop of Winchester (b. 1480)​

Switch the last two matches (needed for both ages and ranks of the brides) and is perfect

 

[kasumigenx]

Margaret II of Flanders m. Henry III of England

1a. Edward I of England b. 1224

2a. Joan of England b. 1225

3a. John of England b. 1226

4a. Mary of England b. 1230

 

[Awkwardvulture]

POD: For whatever reason (perhaps antipathy towards James VI) Lady Arbella Stuart succeeds Elizabeth I in 1603... Also, Frederick of Saxony lives past infancy, and as the younger brother of Christian I, Elector of Saxony, he may provide a valuable alliance without binding England to Saxony via a personal union. Also, Christian, Prince of Denmark dies in Infancy so that his younger brother is their father's heir from birth and can be given a more prestigious match...

Queen Arbella I of England, (b.1575, r.from 1603, d.1631) m. King Frederick I of England in 1590 (b.1575, d.1633), had issue
1) Henry Witten (b.1592, d.1592)
2) Edward, Prince of Wales, later Edward VII of England (b.1595, d.1678) m.Elizabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate, Queen of England (b.1597, d.1658), had issue, second marriage to Anna Magdalena of Birkenfeld-Bischweiler, Queen of England (b.1640, d.1693), had issue
3) Stillborn daughter (1596)
4) Elizabeth Wettin, Queen of Bohemia (b.1599, d.1650) m.Frederick V of the Palatinate "The Winter King of Bohemia" (b.1596, d.1632), had issue
5) Charles, Duke of York (b.1604, d.1680)
6) Margaret Wettin, Queen of Denmark (b.1607, d.1684) m. King Frederick III of Denmark (b.1609, d.1670) had issue

 

[Ivan Lupo]

POD: For whatever reason (perhaps antipathy towards James VI) Lady Arbella Stuart succeeds Elizabeth I in 1603... Also, Frederick of Saxony lives past infancy, and as the younger brother of Christian I, Elector of Saxony, he may provide a valuable alliance without binding England to Saxony via a personal union. Also, Christian, Prince of Denmark dies in Infancy so that his younger brother is their father's heir from birth and can be given a more prestigious match...

Queen Arbella I of England, (b.1575, r.from 1603, d.1631) m. King Frederick I of England in 1590 (b.1575, d.1633), had issue
1) Henry Witten (b.1592, d.1592)
2) Edward, Prince of Wales, later Edward VII of England (b.1595, d.1678) m.Elizabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate, Queen of England (b.1597, d.1658), had issue, second marriage to Anna Magdalena of Birkenfeld-Bischweiler, Queen of England (b.1640, d.1693), had issue
3) Stillborn daughter (1596)
4) Elizabeth Wettin, Queen of Bohemia (b.1599, d.1650) m.Frederick V of the Palatinate "The Winter King of Bohemia" (b.1596, d.1632), had issue
5) Charles, Duke of York (b.1604, d.1680)
6) Margaret Wettin, Queen of Denmark (b.1607, d.1684) m. King Frederick III of Denmark (b.1609, d.1670) had issue

Arbella becoming Elizabeth's heir is plausible if James VI dies before producing any issue, otherwise his son Henry would be the inarguable heir. I would have to imagine that Arbella would probably be compelled to marry a member of the English nobility descended from the royal bloodline in some way however. In OTL, she married William Seymour in 1609 and was imprisoned for it, but if James dies before 1593 (Henry was born early in 1594, so would have had to have been conceived the year before), Arbella would still be in her late teens and probably have any number of suitors available to her.

I should probably also add that around this time, Margaret Clifford, wife of the Earl of Derby Henry Stanley, was seen as Elizabeth's next heir, since I believe the line of Margaret Tudor was excluded from the succession.

I believe there were other claimants ahead of Arabella for the Scottish succession, but correct if I'm wrong about that. I think then that Arabella would would end up married to William Stanley, the 2nd son of Henry Stanley and Margaret Clifford, especially if his holder brother Ferdinando is still murdered when he was.

 

[Awkwardvulture]

Arbella becoming Elizabeth's heir is plausible if James VI dies before producing any issue, otherwise his son Henry would be the inarguable heir. I would have to imagine that Arbella would probably be compelled to marry a member of the English nobility descended from the royal bloodline in some way however. In OTL, she married William Seymour in 1609 and was imprisoned for it, but if James dies before 1593 (Henry was born early in 1594, so would have had to have been conceived the year before), Arbella would still be in her late teens and probably have any number of suitors available to her.

Thank you for letting me know ! I was thinking that a Saxon match could bring a valuable Protestant alliance that England needs, so Elizabeth would invite the younger Witten boy to England to marry her heiress Arbella..

 

[Ivan Lupo]

I think since Arbella would be seen as a foreigner in the eyes of Parliament and the English nobility, they would definitely prefer to have her marry an Englishman. Marrying William Stanley would unite the lines of Margaret and Mary Tudor. England and Scotland I believe would remain separate.

 

[isabella]

I think since Arbella would be seen as a foreigner in the eyes of Parliament and the English nobility, they would definitely prefer to have her marry an Englishman. Marrying William Stanley would unite the lines of Margaret and Mary Tudor. England and Scotland I believe would remain separate.

For what reason Arbella would be seen as foreign? Most of her family is English born or at least English raised (her paternal grandfather and his father-in-law were Scottish, but her grandmother was born in England and partially raised there and is likely who also her father was born in England). Arbella was born in England and raised there, is unlikely who she had ever been in Scotland

 

[isabella]

Arbella becoming Elizabeth's heir is plausible if James VI dies before producing any issue, otherwise his son Henry would be the inarguable heir. I would have to imagine that Arbella would probably be compelled to marry a member of the English nobility descended from the royal bloodline in some way however. In OTL, she married William Seymour in 1609 and was imprisoned for it, but if James dies before 1593 (Henry was born early in 1594, so would have had to have been conceived the year before), Arbella would still be in her late teens and probably have any number of suitors available to her.

I should probably also add that around this time, Margaret Clifford, wife of the Earl of Derby Henry Stanley, was seen as Elizabeth's next heir, since I believe the line of Margaret Tudor was excluded from the succession.

I believe there were other claimants ahead of Arabella for the Scottish succession, but correct if I'm wrong about that. I think then that Arabella would would end up married to William Stanley, the 2nd son of Henry Stanley and Margaret Clifford, especially if his holder brother Ferdinando is still murdered when he was.

Scotland follow Semi-Salic succession (with female lines counted by blood proximity) so Arbella is likely James’ heiress in Scotland if he died childless (sure the Lennox are NOT royal Stewarts and their claim is inherited from an Hamilton ancestress, and so juniors to theirs, but I believe who Arbella would still be heiress ahead of the Hamiltons)

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Thank you for letting me know ! I was thinking that a Saxon match could bring a valuable Protestant alliance that England needs, so Elizabeth would invite the younger Witten boy to England to marry her heiress Arbella..

Two of the matches you made for Arbella's kids seem implausible (IMO). A second marriage to a princess of Pfalz-Birkenfeld-Bischweiler is crazy low for the king of England. If he has heirs, she makes no sense (a love match seems unlikely since where would they have met?). She makes even LESS sense if his first marriage was childless. Her family is neither wealthy nor powerful nor even especially well-connected to potentially useful allies such as the Netherlands or Denmark or France/Spain/Austria.

As for a Danish match for Margaret, until 1647, Frederik III's older brother is heir to Denmark. No way anyone will marry his daughter to a SECOND son if there's a first born available. Which means either Margaret waits until the 1640s to get married (unlikely IMO), or she marries elsewhere. Arbella likely wouldn't have Anne of Denmark's hangups about her eldest daughter marrying Gustaf Vasa. Christian the Younger of Brunswick was also interested in OTL Elizabeth Stuart IIRC. A double Palatinate match seems a bit of a waste to me.

 

[Awkwardvulture]

Two of the matches you made for Arbella's kids seem implausible (IMO). A second marriage to a princess of Pfalz-Birkenfeld-Bischweiler is crazy low for the king of England. If he has heirs, she makes no sense (a love match seems unlikely since where would they have met?). She makes even LESS sense if his first marriage was childless. Her family is neither wealthy nor powerful nor even especially well-connected to potentially useful allies such as the Netherlands or Denmark or France/Spain/Austria.

As for a Danish match for Margaret, until 1647, Frederik III's older brother is heir to Denmark. No way anyone will marry his daughter to a SECOND son if there's a first born available. Which means either Margaret waits until the 1640s to get married (unlikely IMO), or she marries elsewhere. Arbella likely wouldn't have Anne of Denmark's hangups about her eldest daughter marrying Gustaf Vasa. Christian the Younger of Brunswick was also interested in OTL Elizabeth Stuart IIRC. A double Palatinate match seems a bit of a waste to me.

He has heirs by his first marriage so the second one could possibly be a love match, for instance, she visits England shortly before or after her great aunt (and predecessor's) death. Well, in regards to the Danish match I mentioned in the original post that Frederik III's older brother dies in infancy... As for the matches in general, I was thinking that German and other matches would be more likely than French or Spanish ones, as by Arbella marrying a Wettin, England becomes much more Protestant and German orientated.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

He has heirs by his first marriage so the second one could possibly be a love match, for instance, she visits England shortly before or after her great aunt (and predecessor's) death.

Hazards of travel in those days made it unlikely. And the previous queen being her great-aunt makes it iffy. That was one of the biggest problems with Henry VIII marrying Kristina of Denmark: Kristina being Katherine of Aragon's great-niece. Ordinarily, the pope would'vr granted the dispensation, but Henry had denied that the pope had this right, so what to do about it? There were even jokes made at the imperial court at the time that "the king has put away the aunt to marry the little niece".

As for the matches in general, I was thinking that German and other matches would be more likely than French or Spanish ones, as by Arbella marrying a Wettin, England becomes much more Protestant and German orientated.

Why? She married a younger son from Saxony. By the time of their marriage Christian I's had his kids already, so there's nothing really for Fritz to inherit. So he comes to England essentially unfettered. England is no more bound to follow Saxon lead under him than she was to follow a Spanish lead under Mary I or follow Denmark under Queen Anne. Saxony's relations with England are ENTIRELY dependent on the queen's relationship with her husband. Will England make Protestant matches? Probably, but I find it difficult to believe that no matter how Protestant they go, they'll ignore France/Spain/Austria. Hell, George I's daughter was a serious contender to marry Louis XV (and that was AFTER the Act of Settlement), and the ONLY reason the marriage didn't go through was because the ministry pointed out to George I that it would look odd if a king "who owed his throne only to his virtue of being a Protestant were fo marry his eldest granddaughter to the Catholic king of France".

 

[curlyhairedhippie]

Revised issue of Margaret of Austria from my Margareta domina TL.


Margaret of Austria, Duchess of Burgundy (b. January 1480, r. from 1496) m. Philibert II, Duke of Savoy (b. 1480, r. from 1504) in 1497, had issue

1) Mary (b. September 1498) m. John III, King of Castile, Aragon, and Portugal (b. 1502)​

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2) Philip V, Duke of Burgundy (b. April 1500) m. Mary Tudor (b. 1496, d. 1524) (a); Beatriz of Portugal (b. 1504) (b)​

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3) Margaret (b. February 1502) m. Sigismund I Jagiellon, King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania (b. 1467) in 1517, had issue​

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4) Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (b. August 1503) m. Elisabeth Jagiellonica (b. 1505)​

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5) Philiberta (b. October 1505) m. Stephen VI Jagiellon, King of Hungary and Bohemia (b. 1504)​

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6) Bianca (b. March 1507) m. Massimiliano II Sforza, Duke of Milan (b. 1512)​

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Note:
Stephen and Elisabeth Jagiellon are the children of Vladislaus II and María of Aragón.
Beatriz and John are the children of Manuel I and Juana of Castile.
Massimiliano is the son of Francesco II Sforza and Bona Sforza.
I am also considering having Margaret marry Christian II of Denmark because I don't have a bride for him ITTL.