List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage

[Jan Olbracht]

John II of Castile has one more son with Maria of Aragon (Alfonso, b. 1428)

Alfonso XII (1428-1488) King of Castile 1474* m. Isabella of Portugal (1428-1496)

1) Isabella (1450-1454)

2) John (1453-1480) Prince of Asturias, m. Joanna of Portugal (1452-1490)

3) Maria (1455-1527) m. Ferdinand II (1452-1516) King of Aragon

4) Joanna (1456-1502) m. John II (1455-1495) King of Portugal

5) Alfonso (1458)

6) Beatrice (1460-1465)

7) Ferdinand VI (1461-1512) King of Navarre iure uxoris 1484, King of Castile 1488, m. Catherine of Navarre (1468-1517)

8) James (1463)

9) Isabella (1468-1524) m. Edward V (1470-1514) King of England

* La Beltraneja is never born ITTL, and John II of Castile has less inective to remarry having spare son (who marries his OTL wife).

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

If anything, the elder son would get Hungary as it was better kingdom than Bohemia with chance to be elected as Emperor, but I think that Brandenburg for younger son is likely + Ludwig would be most likely betrothed and than husband of Jadwiga Jagiellonka, and it'd probably mean that they'd marry sooner because Ludwig is older than Frederick Hohenzollern was + he's Sigismund's son, so Sigismund won't try to block the match, so I think the division would be like this
a) Karl- Bohemia, Hungary, empire
b) Ludwig/Ludwik II, - Brandenburg, Poland-Lithuania (iure uxoris)
c) Johann (Luxembourg).

So, something like this then:

Sigismund I, Holy Roman Emperor [1410-1437], King of Hungary [1387-1437], King of Bohemia [1419-1437], Elector of Brandenburg [1411-1419] (1368-1437) 1m: 1385 Mary, Queen of Hungary (1371-1395); 2m: 1396 Margarethe of Brieg (b.1380)

[1m.] Stillborn Son (1395)

[2m.] Laszlo/Ladislav (1399-1400)

[2m.] Karl V, Holy Roman Emperor, King of Hungary, Croatia & Bohemia [from 1437] (b.1401) m: ?

Holy Roman Emperor, King of Hungary, Croatia & Bohemia​

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[2m.] Elisabeth (b.1402)

[2m.] Ludwig, Elector of Brandenburg [from 1419] (b.1404) m: 1418 Elzbieta Bonifacia, Queen of Poland[1] (b.1399)/Hedwig II, Queen of Poland (b.1408)

Ludwik II, King of Poland, Elector of Brandenburg (b.1420)​

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Second Son, King of Naples [adopted by Giovanna II of Naples instead of Alfonso V of Aragon]​

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Others​

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[2m.] Johann, Duke of Luxemburg (b.1407) m: Catherine of Lorraine (b.1410)[2]

Dukes of Luxemburg​

[1] IDK if her survival would be likely, but it seems like an interesting thought experiment (mostly because I'd be interested in seeing what happens with Lithuania in either scenario)
[2] there are no other Low Countries heiresses (Jakoba of Bavaria is too old to be credible (same for Elisabeth of Gorlitz - although a daughter of hers by the duke of Brabant could be considered)

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Elzbieta Bonifacia, Queen of Poland[1]

This means guaranteed war between brothers, because Elżbieta Bonifacja would have better claim to Hungary than Karl and unless Ludwig is a complete idiot, he cannot ignore this.

Lithuania

There are a lot of possibilites, but they belong more in DM, because here it'd be a massive spam.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

There are a lot of possibilites, but they belong more in DM, because here it'd be a massive spam.

Feel free too hit me up with this "massive spam"

This means guaranteed war between brothers, because Elżbieta Bonifacja would have better claim to Hungary than Karl and unless Ludwig is a complete idiot, he cannot ignore this.

Noted. Jadwiga of Poland it is. (Will have to keep Elzbieta Bonifacia surviving for another idea)

 

[VVD0D95]

A little look at the House of York from my timeline A Thorn In The Rose

Richard, Duke of York (b.1411) m Cecily Neville (b.1415)

Issue:

Anne of York, Duchess of Exeter (b.1438) m Henry Holland, Duke of Exeter (b.1430) with issue

Henry of York (b.1441: d.1441)

Edward, Earl of March (b.1442)

Edmund, Earl of Rutland (b.1443) m Margaret Beaufort (b.1442) with issue

Elizabeth of York (b.1444) betrothed to Henry Beaufort (b.1435)

Margaret of York (b.1446)

William of York (b.1447: d.1447)

John of York (b.1448: d.1448)

George of York (b.1449)

Thomas of York (b.1451)

Richard of York (b.1452)

stillborn (b.1455: d.1455)

 

[VVD0D95]

Alexander II of Scotland has children by his first wife

Alexander II, King of Scots (b.1198: d.1249) m Joan of England (b.1210: d.1244)

Issue:

Marjorie of Scotland (b.1227)

Joan of Scotland (b.1233)

William II, King of Scots (b.1236)

This consequently means that Alexander likely doesn't remarry to Marie de Coucy, and given the prominence of Alan Durward during the 1230s, it is possible he might get to marry Marjorie in return for being named Earl of Atholl.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

WIP: Martin I of Aragon is widowed earlier and marries Joanna of Navarre (1382-1413) as his second wife, with issue.

Joanna of Navarre (1382-1413) m. Martin I (1356-1410) King of Aragon

1) Eleanor b. 1399

2) Peter V b. 1401, King of Aragon 1410, King of Navarre 1425

 

[kasumigenx]

Louis XI m. Charlotte of Savoy(b)

1a. Anne de Beaujeu m. Peter II, Duke of Bourbon

1a1a. Charles, Duke of Clermont

2a. Joan of France m. Louis XII of France

2a2a. Charles IX of France b. 1483 m. Anne of Brittany

2a2a1a. Louis XIII of France b. 1502 m. Katherine Tudor b. 1503

2a3a. Marie of France b. 1486 m. Vladislaus of Hungary

3a. Charles VIII of France m. Anne of Brittany(a)

3a1a. Charles Orlando b. 1492 d. 1495

3a2a. Anne of France b. 1498 m. Miguel I of Spain

 

[curlyhairedhippie]

A different Yorkist TL, inspired by my one on the children of the Catholic Monarchs...Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville's children swap genders. Still looking for brides for the Prince of Wales coldsweat and the earl of March...


Edward IV, King of England (b. 1442, d. 1483) m. Elizabeth Woodville (b. 1437*, d. 1492) in 1464, had issue

1) Edward, Prince of Wales (b. 1466) m. ???​

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2) Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk (b. 1467, d. 1482) m. Anne de Mowbry, 8th countess of Norfolk (b. 1472)​

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3) George, Duke of Bedford (b. 1469) m. Maddalena de’Medici (b. 1473)​

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4) Elizabeth (b. 1470) m. Charles VIII, King of France (b. 1470)​

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5) Edmund, earl of Cambridge (b. and d. 1472)​

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6) Cecily (b. 1473) m. James IV Stewart, King of Scots (b. 1473)​

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7) Thomas, Duke of Cambridge (b. 1475) m. Elizabeth Herbert, 3rd Baroness Herbert (b. 1476)​

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8) Jacquetta (b. 1477, d. 1479)​

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9) William, Duke of Gloucester (b. 1478) m. Alice of Middleham, 1st countess of Salisbury (b. 1473*)​

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10) Lionel, Bishop of Ely, later Bishop of Winchester (b. 1480)​

 

[FalconHonour]

A different Yorkist TL, inspired by my one on the children of the Catholic Monarchs...Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville's children swap genders. Still looking for brides for the Prince of Wales coldsweat and the earl of March...


Edward IV, King of England (b. 1542, d. 1483) m. Elizabeth Woodville (b. 1437*, d. 1492) in 1464, had issue

1) Edward, Prince of Wales (b. 1466) m. ???​

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2) Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk (b. 1467, d. 1482) m. Anne de Mowbry, 8th countess of Norfolk (b. 1472)​

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3) George, Duke of Bedford (b. 1469) m. Maddalena de’Medici (b. 1473)been​

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4) Elizabeth (b. 1470) m. Charles VIII, King of France (b. 1470)​

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5) Edmund, earl of Cambridge (b. and d. 1472)​

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6) Cecily (b. 1473) m. James IV Stewart, King of Scots (b. 1473)​

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7) Thomas, earl of Rutland (b. 1475) m. Elizabeth Herbert, 3rd Baroness Herbert (b. 1476)​

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8) Jacquetta (b. 1477, d. 1479)​

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9) William, earl of March (b. 1478) m. ???​

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10) Lionel, Bishop of Ely, later Bishop of Winchester (b. 1480)​

Er.. You've got Edward IV being born seventy years after he dies

In terms of a bride for the Prince of Wales - the closest girl I can find in age on a quick google would be Isabella of Viseu, niece and then sister of the King of Portugal (b. 1459). He's precisely between generations of Princesses in age...

 

[Cate13]

Still looking for brides for the Prince of Wales coldsweat and the earl of March...

You could have him follow in his father's footsteps and elope

 

[curlyhairedhippie]

Er.. You've got Edward IV being born seventy years after he dies

Oof, didn’t see that. Fixed.

In terms of a bride for the Prince of Wales - the closest girl I can find in age on a quick google would be Isabella of Viseu, niece and then sister of the King of Portugal (b. 1459). He's precisely between generations of Princesses in age...

Yeah, he’s a problem...not many eligible girls born in the 1460s. Kunigunde of Austria or Bianca Maria Sforza could be options...I think Isabel of Viseu might not be grand enough to warrant the age difference between her and Edward. Or what about a French proxy? POD is such that Louis XI could have a Savoyard niece of the right age.

You could have him follow in his father's footsteps and elope

Now that too is an option...

 

[CaptainShadow]

A different Yorkist TL, inspired by my one on the children of the Catholic Monarchs...Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville's children swap genders. Still looking for brides for the Prince of Wales coldsweat and the earl of March...


Edward IV, King of England (b. 1442, d. 1483) m. Elizabeth Woodville (b. 1437*, d. 1492) in 1464, had issue

1) Edward, Prince of Wales (b. 1466) m. ???​

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2) Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk (b. 1467, d. 1482) m. Anne de Mowbry, 8th countess of Norfolk (b. 1472)​

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3) George, Duke of Bedford (b. 1469) m. Maddalena de’Medici (b. 1473)​

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4) Elizabeth (b. 1470) m. Charles VIII, King of France (b. 1470)​

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5) Edmund, earl of Cambridge (b. and d. 1472)​

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6) Cecily (b. 1473) m. James IV Stewart, King of Scots (b. 1473)​

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7) Thomas, earl of Rutland (b. 1475) m. Elizabeth Herbert, 3rd Baroness Herbert (b. 1476)​

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8) Jacquetta (b. 1477, d. 1479)​

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9) William, earl of March (b. 1478) m. ???​

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10) Lionel, Bishop of Ely, later Bishop of Winchester (b. 1480)​

For the PoW, either give Louis XI an extra daughter or keep Francis Phoebus alive longer and marry him to Catherine of Navarre.

Rutland and March need Dukedoms and who's married Anne of Brittany ITTL? Also for March's bride you could go for Middleham born female.

 

[curlyhairedhippie]

For the PoW, either give Louis XI an extra daughter or keep Francis Phoebus alive longer and marry him to Catherine of Navarre.

Are you sure re: Catherine of Navarre? Louis XI probably would rather her marry the Dauphin, unless he is super committed to an English match for little Charles (which he definitely doesn't seem to have been IOTL). Anyways, I also think that Francis Phoebus is likely still a goner, between Louis XI and Fernando of Aragon.

Rutland and March need Dukedoms and who's married Anne of Brittany ITTL? Also for March's bride you could go for Middleham born female.

Right, so, Duke of Cambridge and Duke of...Clarence? IDK do you think Edward would use the title of his attainted brother for one of his sons? I feel like probably not. Gloucester could work if Middleham is born female and married to William of York.

 

[isabella]

A different Yorkist TL, inspired by my one on the children of the Catholic Monarchs...Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville's children swap genders. Still looking for brides for the Prince of Wales coldsweat and the earl of March...


Edward IV, King of England (b. 1442, d. 1483) m. Elizabeth Woodville (b. 1437*, d. 1492) in 1464, had issue

1) Edward, Prince of Wales (b. 1466) m. ???​

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2) Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk (b. 1467, d. 1482) m. Anne de Mowbry, 8th countess of Norfolk (b. 1472)​

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3) George, Duke of Bedford (b. 1469) m. Maddalena de’Medici (b. 1473)​

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4) Elizabeth (b. 1470) m. Charles VIII, King of France (b. 1470)​

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5) Edmund, earl of Cambridge (b. and d. 1472)​

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6) Cecily (b. 1473) m. James IV Stewart, King of Scots (b. 1473)​

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7) Thomas, earl of Rutland (b. 1475) m. Elizabeth Herbert, 3rd Baroness Herbert (b. 1476)​

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8) Jacquetta (b. 1477, d. 1479)​

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9) William, earl of March (b. 1478) m. ???​

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10) Lionel, Bishop of Ely, later Bishop of Winchester (b. 1480)​

As princess of Wales: Louise of Savoy (or one of her brothers born as girl) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yolande_of_Valois#Issue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippa_of_Guelders or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_of_Lorraine
Also either Isabella of Aragon (the Duchess of Milan and the Princess of Portugal are both born in 1470 and if Edward start to search a bride soon he can get either ashey were engaged around 8/9 years old).
Maddalena de’ Medici is way too low born for being married to a royal prince (her family is only de facto ruler of Florence, so she is only a rich merchantess). With so many sons one of them will be surely married to Anne of Brittany

 

[CaptainShadow]

Are you sure re: Catherine of Navarre? Louis XI probably would rather her marry the Dauphin, unless he is super committed to an English match for little Charles (which he definitely doesn't seem to have been IOTL). Anyways, I also think that Francis Phoebus is likely still a goner, between Louis XI and Fernando of Aragon.

Right, so, Duke of Cambridge and Duke of...Clarence? IDK do you think Edward would use the title of his attainted brother for one of his sons? I feel like probably not. Gloucester could work if Middleham is born female and married to William of York.

Louis XI sure, but he can't do much to marry her to the Dauphin if she's already married to the PoW.

And the English match could happen because of a war over Navarre and possibly Brittany.

Not sure, but with three sons in the cradle and one on the way are we quite sure Warwick's rebellion and George being George will happen in the first place? And Rutland would be Cambridge and March can be Hereford. Gloucester works too but after Richard I think it'd be somewhat associated with the north, while March is.....not in the north.

Maddalena de’ Medici is way too low born for being married to a royal prince (her family is only de facto ruler of Florence, so she is only a rich merchantess).

She can be a hot rich merchantess.

 

[isabella]

Louis XI sure, but he can't do much to marry her to the Dauphin if she's already married to the PoW.

And the English match could happen because of a war over Navarre and possibly Brittany.

Not sure, but with three sons in the cradle and one on the way are we quite sure Warwick's rebellion and George being George will happen in the first place? And Rutland would be Cambridge and March can be Hereford. Gloucester works too but after Richard I think it'd be somewhat associated with the north, while March is.....not in the north.

She can be a hot rich merchantess.

Not good enough. And she would still married off in Rome, in exchange of her brother’s ecclesiastical career.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Tudor Spain under construction:​

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PODs:​

-Elizabeth Tudor (b. 1492) lives.​

-Joanna the Mad dies in Castile in 1503, giving birth to Ferdinand (who also dies). Philip Habsburg remarries to Elizabeth Tudor​

-Henry VII lives longer, thus his son marries Eleanor of Austria instead of CoA. H7, who not only lives longer but also is not distracted by Joanna the Mad, remarries to Margaret of Austria or Joanna of Naples but has no issue.​

-Philip succeedes Maximilian as HRE while Charles rules Spain.​

-Charles dies earlier than IOTL and without surviving issue and is succeeded by Tudor nephew (likely older son of H8 and Eleanor gets Spain while younger one inherits England).​

 

[The_Most_Happy]

Tudor Spain under construction:​

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PODs:​

-Elizabeth Tudor (b. 1492) lives.​

-Joanna the Mad dies in Castile in 1503, giving birth to Ferdinand (who also dies). Philip Habsburg remarries to Elizabeth Tudor​

-Henry VII lives longer, thus his son marries Eleanor of Austria instead of CoA. H7, who not only lives longer but also is not distracted by Joanna the Mad, remarries to Margaret of Austria or Joanna of Naples but has no issue.​

-Philip succeedes Maximilian as HRE while Charles rules Spain.​

-Charles dies earlier than IOTL and without surviving issue and is succeeded by Tudor nephew (likely older son of H8 and Eleanor gets Spain while younger one inherits England).​

I'd swap out the order of the sons inheriting - England for the eldest, Spain for the younger. I can't see Henry VIII cottoning on to his eldest son not inheriting.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

I'd swap out the order of the sons inheriting - England for the eldest, Spain for the younger. I can't see Henry VIII cottoning on to his eldest son not inheriting.

But wasn't Spanish throne at the time worth much more than English one?