"Io Mihailŭ, Împĕratul Românilor" - A Michael the Brave Romania Wank

[mlp]

I can not get the meaning of the word "dope" here... Some slang, maybe?

Scandinavia is clearly the weakest Great Power. It was reluctantly invited to the club after all.

Free Trade is very nice, but unfortunately at least a couple of centuries too early.

Well nationalism came early too. It'd be a very Bismarkan thing for Germany to spearhead free trade.
Also "dope" is indeed a slang term, primarily meaning "great". For any slang you come across, urbandictionary.com can be a great help from now on.

 

[Zagan]

Well nationalism came early too. It'd be a very Bismarkan thing for Germany to spearhead free trade.
Also "dope" is indeed a slang term, primarily meaning "great". For any slang you come across, urbandictionary.com can be a great help from now on.

Maybe... A Germany focused on Economics rather than Wars would be nice for a change.

Thank you. I googled "define dope" with no clear results. I will use urbandictionary.com from now on.

 

[Zagan]

Europe during the Great Powers Conference (1626-1627)​

With Google Maps Overlay:

Without the Google Maps Overlay:

Enough said already; No legend or notes necessary.

 

[mlp]

Let's have Germany be the first ones to industrialise, Zagan - the sit at the crossroads of Europe and should be developing the quickest. Also I could see them having more of northern Italy for dat coastline.

 

[Zagan]

Let's have Germany be the first ones to industrialise, Zagan - the sit at the crossroads of Europe and should be developing the quickest. Also I could see them having more of northern Italy for dat coastline.

Yes, Germany will start to industrialize, steel and all that.
The problem is that might result in a bigger, better Military Industry...

No, taking more Italians within their borders is a big NO for any National State, especially Germany. Italians are almost impossible to assimilate.
And Trieste is quite enough.

 

[Avrorrange]

Yes, Germany will start to industrialize, steel and all that.
The problem is that might result in a bigger, better Military Industry...

No, taking more Italians within their borders is a big NO for any National State, especially Germany. Italians are almost impossible to assimilate.
And Trieste is quite enough.

True industrialisation at this stage is probably impossible.You need the steam engine and agricultural revolution.For more information,read the Age of Miracles:The Revival of Rhomanion.What you can get though is proto-industrialisation in the same vein as Song China.

 

[Zagan]

True industrialisation at this stage is probably impossible.You need the steam engine and agricultural revolution.For more information,read the Age of Miracles:The Revival of Rhomanion.What you can get though is proto-industrialisation in the same vein as Song China.

Well... Sure.

The Industrial Revolution, as almost anything else, will start earlier ITTL.
Well, not that early.

 

[Avrorrange]

So what happened to Crete?Is it still be Italian?Did Hungary get annexed by Romania?

 

[Sian]

Italy could, when they gain the old Kingdom of Sicily, sit tight and wait for new Ottoman problems and then try and leap across to Egypt, while later on, encouraged by the pope, make a bet on the holy lands

 

[mlp]

Yes, Germany will start to industrialize, steel and all that.
The problem is that might result in a bigger, better Military Industry...

No, taking more Italians within their borders is a big NO for any National State, especially Germany. Italians are almost impossible to assimilate.
And Trieste is quite enough.

Aren't there more ethnic Germans in Italy? Or have we taken those territories already?

 

[Linense]

It's a great AH.

PS: Why did you title to Spain as the Iberian Empire? Spain's current name comes from the time when the Bourbons won the Spanish throne. Before both Portugal (before and after the break caused by the War of Independence Portuguese, which occurred between 1640 and 1668) as the other peninsular kingdoms (Castile, Aragon and Navarre) were called Spaniards for their own inhabitants until the Spanish Bourbons began the exclusive designation of Spain.

In any case, the new state should be called Spanish Empire or Spain.

 

[Zagan]

So what happened to Crete?Is it still be Italian?Did Hungary get annexed by Romania?

Crete is still Venetian (Italian), for the time being... (the colors for Greece and Italy are unfortunately similar)
The ethnic Greeks are formenting a revolt there. They had only been quiet when the alternative to Venetian occupation would have been Ottoman occupation. Now they have an Orthodox Greek State just across the Crete Sea to look at with renewed hope.

Hungary is not annexed by anyone. A Hungarian State did simply not exist at that time.
The Alba Iulia Peace Treaty mentioned a hypothetical Hungarian State, but it was never created, since the German Empire invaded Ottoman Hungary.
The ensuing events were called the Hungarian Crisis and it is mentioned in 3 different chapters.
To summarize, the Romanians entered Ottoman Hungary as well. The peace with the Ottomans had already been signed and the Ottoman had forfeited the territory anyway, so they opposed no resistance. The Romanians and the Germans met in Western Hungary and split the territory between them. Both Romania and Germany officially champion the right of the Hungarians to form a State, which should be under their influence. None seems to give ground.
The Hungarian Problem will be solved by the Great Powers Conference.

Italy could, when they gain the old Kingdom of Sicily, sit tight and wait for new Ottoman problems and then try and leap across to Egypt, while later on, encouraged by the pope, make a bet on the holy lands

Interesting. However, I have other plans already.

Aren't there more ethnic Germans in Italy? Or have we taken those territories already?

There are very few Germans in the Italian States. The German part of South Tyrol has been retained by Germany.
Germany has ceded Italian inhabited lands from Switzerland and Austria to Venice and Milan.
Germany only kept Trieste in order to have acces to the Adriatic Sea.

It's a great AH.

PS: Why did you title to Spain as the Iberian Empire? Spain's current name comes from the time when the Bourbons won the Spanish throne. Before both Portugal (before and after the break caused by the War of Independence Portuguese, which occurred between 1640 and 1668) as the other peninsular kingdoms (Castile, Aragon and Navarre) were called Spaniards for their own inhabitants until the Spanish Bourbons began the exclusive designation of Spain.

In any case, the new state should be called Spanish Empire or Spain.

Thank you and welcome to my TL.

Because my knowledge of history has gaps. I did not know that and I thought that Castile+Aragon was called Spain back then.

I do not know what to do right now. It seems difficult or even impossible to modify it now, the terms Iberia and Iberian Empire being used in TTL for at least 10 chapters or even more.

 

[Zagan]

About Minorities...

The last question asked by zeppelinair made me realize that while I have posted a significant deal of information about Romania's ethnic and religious minorities (as text, tables and charts), I have posted nothing about the other European countries' minorities. So, here you are:

Estimated Ethnic Composition of Europe​

Europe
~ 48% Romanic
~ 27% Germanic
~ 16% Slavic
~ 6% Other European
~ 3% Non-European

1. Iberian Empire
~ 60% Iberians (Castilians, Portuguese, Catalans, etc)
~ 30% Italians (Neapolitans, Sicilians, Sardinians, Corsicans, etc)
~ 5% Basques
~ 5% Others (Arabs, Greeks, Albanians, Gypsies, Jews, Maltese, etc)

2. France
~ 80% Gallo-Romans (French, Occitans, Provençals, etc)
~ 10% Germans (including Flemings, etc)
~ 10% Others (Catalans, Italians, Basques, Jews, Bretons, etc)

3. Britannia
~ 50% English
~ 20% Scots
~ 20% Irish
~ 10% Others (Welsh, Cornish, Manx, etc)

4. German Empire
~ 80% Germans
~ 8% Czechs
~ 4% Slovenians
~ 4% Other Slavs (Poles, Slovaks, Sorbs, Croatians, etc)
~ 4% Others (French, Jews, Italians, Hungarians, Romansh, Danes, etc)

5. Sarmatia
~ 30% Poles (including other West Slavs)
~ 20% Lithuanians (including other Balts)
~ 30% Ruthenes (Belarussians, Ukrainians, Cossacks, Russians, etc)
~ 4% Estonians (including Ingrians, etc)
~ 6% Germans
~ 6% Tatars
~ 4% Others (Slovaks, Romanians, Armenians, Georgians, Circassians, Turks, Scandinavians, etc)

6. Romania
~ 58% Romanians
~ 42% Other ~20 Minorities (see statistics about Romania)

7. Scandinavia
~ 80% Scandinavians (Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, Icelanders, Feroese, etc)
~ 12% Finns (including Karelians, Ingrians, Vesps, etc)
~ 8% Others (Lapps, Germans, Russians, etc)

8. Russia
~ 75% Russians
~ 25% Others (Tatars, Jews, Caucasus People, Turkestan People, Siberian People, etc)

9. Slovakia
~ 80% Slovaks
~ 12% Hungarians
~ 4% Germans
~ 4% Others (Romanians, Poles, Gypsies, Jews, Turks, etc)

10. Croatia
~ 90% Croats
~ 10% Others (Germans, Dalmats, Italians, Romanians, Hungarians, Jews, Turks, etc)

11. Greece
~ 90% Greeks
~ 10% Others (Romanians, Turks, Albanians, Jews, Gypsies, etc)

12. Italian Confederation
~ 90% Italians
~ 6% Croats
~ 4% Others (Germans, Slovenians, French, Jews, Albanians, Greeks, etc)

13. Hungary
14. Georgia
15. Armenia
Not yet established.

Estimated Religious Composition of Europe​

Europe
~ 60% Catholics
~ 20% Protestants
~ 10% Russian Orthodoxes
~ 4% Romanian Orthodoxes
~ 2% Greek Orthodoxes
~ 3% Muslims
~ 1% Pagans

1. Iberian Empire
~ 99% Catholics
~ 1% Muslims, Jewish

2. France
~ 90% Catholics
~ 9% Protestants
~ 1% Jewish

3. Britannia
~ 70% Protestants
~ 30% Catholics

4. German Empire
~ 70% Protestants
~ 30% Catholics

5. Sarmatia
~ 60% Catholics
~ 20% United with Rome (Catholics)
~ 6% Russian Orthodoxes
~ 5% Greek Orthodoxes
~ 1% Other Orthodoxes
~ 8% Muslims

6. Romania
~ 65% Romanian Orthodoxes
~ 15% Catholics
~ 12% Greek Orthodoxes
~ 5% Protestants
~ 4% Muslims
(see statistics about Romania)

7. Scandinavia
~ 92% Protestants
~ 4% Pagans
~ 2% Russian Orthodoxes
~ 2% Catholics

8. Russia
~ 80% Russian Orthodoxes
~ 12% Muslims
~ 8% Pagans

9. Slovakia
~ 58% Catholics
~ 40% Protestants
~ 2% Romanian Orthodoxes, Jewish, Muslims

10. Croatia
~ 97% Catholics
~ 3% Romanian Orthodoxes, Greek Orthodoxes, Jewish, Muslim

11. Greece
~ 97% Greeks
~ 3% Muslim, Jewish, Romanian Orthodoxes, Other Orthodoxes

12. Italian Confederation
~ 98% Catholics
~ 2% Jewish, Greek Orthodoxes, Protestants

13. Hungary
14. Georgia
15. Armenia
Not yet established.

 

[Sian]

your listed value for pagans in Scandinavia sounds slightly high, even when accounting for Sami Shamanism (which was aggessively chased post-protestantism), as the 'southern' finnish tribes was heavily proselytized by the Sweden throughout their period there, and i would suscept given the rapid catholicism by Sigismund III, that he would have pushed that cart even harder as there would now also be a reasonbly high ammount of Protestants around.

on the other hand, I'm thinking that Catholism would probably be at least as big as Russian Orthodoxy.

Off the cuff i'd say that everyone identified as proper Scandinaivans, somewhere just above half the finns and at the vast majority of germans (which i'd guess would ammount for at least 4%, probably higher, mainly in southern Scheswig and as traders in the habours in southern baltic, mainly in copenhagen and Scania) and prehaps a quarter/half the lapps would be Protestants, even if some of the Lapps might still be more of crypto-pagans, masquerading as Protestants, going to church every sunday.

If i were to guess i'd say:
~92% Protestants (of all flavours, but lutherians being heavily dominant)
2% Russian Orthodoxy
2% Catholics
4% Others (both Lappish/Finnish Shamanists, and Jews which was reallowed entry into Denmark at the founding of Glückstadt in 1617)

 

[Zagan]

your listed value for pagans in Scandinavia sounds slightly high, even when accounting for Sami Shamanism (which was aggessively chased post-protestantism), as the 'southern' finnish tribes was heavily proselytized by the Sweden throughout their period there, and i would suscept given the rapid catholicism by Sigismund III, that he would have pushed that cart even harder as there would now also be a reasonbly high ammount of Protestants around.

on the other hand, I'm thinking that Catholism would probably be at least as big as Russian Orthodoxy.

Off the cuff i'd say that everyone identified as proper Scandinaivans, somewhere just above half the finns and at the vast majority of germans (which i'd guess would ammount for at least 4%, probably higher, mainly in southern Scheswig and as traders in the habours in southern baltic, mainly in copenhagen and Scania) and prehaps a quarter/half the lapps would be Protestants, even if some of the Lapps might still be more of crypto-pagans, masquerading as Protestants, going to church every sunday.

If i were to guess i'd say:
~92% Protestants (of all flavours, but lutherians being heavily dominant)
2% Russian Orthodoxy
2% Catholics
4% Others (both Lappish/Finnish Shamanists, and Jews which was reallowed entry into Denmark at the founding of Glückstadt in 1617)

Thank you.

1. Pagans - I think you forgot about that huge Karelia and "Whiteland" areas. Even if sparsely inhabited, they were full of Pagans, so probably more than 4% and less than 8%.

2. Catholics in Finland because of Sigismund - Finland has never been annexed into Sarmatia proper, but left as an Autonomous Protestant Finnish Dependency. So, few Catholics there. Of course, there still were probably some Catholics left in Scandinavia proper. 2% seems legit.

3. The data shown in my post is:
- my estimate of actual TTL data;
- NOT a TTL census;
- NOT their self-identification in TTL.

4. I think Schleswig started to Germanize later.

5. 1617 may have been butterflied away. Anyway, the number of Jews would have been rather small.
EDIT: Glückstadt is in Holstein, which in TTL was no longer Danish in 1617, but German.

6. Let's summarize:
~ 90% Protestants
~ 2% Catholics
~ 2% Russian Orthodoxes
~ 6% Pagans

 

[Sian]

1. Sure, Whiteland might well have some Pagans (many of them Sami), maybe even above half, but IIRC both Norwegian and Russian Traders spread their respective religions there. But i'm thinking if the area aren't that sparse in population that it wouldn't be noticable. with prehaps only 10-20k, as they were at least seminomadic needing large areas to herd their reindeers.

4. already in 1460 we had "ewich tosamend ungedelt", that Holstein and Schleswig should be 'forever conjoined', and at this point the germanization started slowly.

5. sure, Glückstadt is in Holstein so it can't be that, but then it might well be either Tönning/Tønning which sits on the mouth of Eider or Husum which is a old cattle market, that runs away with a similar expansion.

 

[Zagan]

1. Sure, Whiteland might well have some Pagans (many of them Sami), maybe even above half, but IIRC both Norwegian and Russian Traders spread their respective religions there. But i'm thinking if the area aren't that sparse in population that it wouldn't be noticable. with prehaps only 10-20k, as they were at least seminomadic needing large areas to herd their reindeers.

4. already in 1460 we had "ewich tosamend ungedelt", that Holstein and Schleswig should be 'forever conjoined', and at this point the germanization started slowly.

5. sure, Glückstadt is in Holstein so it can't be that, but then it might well be either Tönning/Tønning which sits on the mouth of Eider or Husum which is a old cattle market, that runs away with a similar expansion.

1. Yes, I have researched a little the population density issue. Those areas were almost uninhabited compared to Denmark and Southern Sweden!

4. With hindsight, it was a very bad decision.

5. Ok.

 

[gianni_rivera]

Hi, Zagan thanks for the writing.

Would you return to the earlier style of writing with Mihael at the centre of the timeline? It is the most interesting part of the timeline.

 

[Zagan]

Hi, Zagan thanks for the writing.

Would you return to the earlier style of writing with Mihael at the centre of the timeline? It is the most interesting part of the timeline.

Thank you.

Yes, I know. Unfortunately, I had to write quite extensively about the other European countries.

You WILL get some other Mihai-centered chapters after that with the Great Powers Conference.
Not too many though, because Mihai is almost 70 years old and he is going to die eventually.
The TimeLine will NOT die with him, but continue with Romania under his descendants, all the way to the 21st century.

 

[Zagan]

Table of Contents #1

Note: Because the new board allows unlimited editing time, I have added a Table of Contents to the first post and had this one removed.

Diacritics (for personal use): Â â Ê ê Î î Ô ô Û û Ă ă Ĕ ĕ Ĭ ĭ Ŏ ŏ Ŭ ŭ Ḑ ḑ Ș ș Ț ț Ä ä Ö ö Ü ü ß