"Io Mihailŭ, Împĕratul Românilor" - A Michael the Brave Romania Wank

[Zagan]

Could you try writing it like a history book for one update?

You don't have to, of course.

I will try to quote from an TTL history book in some future chapter(s).

 

[Chrispi]

Iberian Union flag at last!

It could be something as simple (and heraldically incorrect!) as this:

 

[Chrispi]

Or it could be something as gloriously complicated as this:

 

[Chrispi]

Now that the flags are done, I can get back to 17th century Romanian orthography!

 

[Zagan]

Now that the flags are done, I can get back to 17th century Romanian orthography!

May I suggest you to read the whole TL first. Otherwise you may ask things that are discussed later.

 

[Avrorrange]

How come the flags don't have much heraldry?

 

[Zagan]

How come the flags don't have much heraldry?

They are National Flags (OTL Civil Flags), not Royal Flags (OTL State Flags).
Most Royal Flags are defaced with the corresponding Coat of Arms.
I have not designed any Coat of Arms. If someone wants to do it, it is ok.

 

[Avrorrange]

They are National Flags (OTL Civil Flags), not Royal Flags (OTL State Flags).
Most Royal Flags are defaced with the corresponding Coat of Arms.
I have not designed any Coat of Arms. If someone wants to do it, it is ok.

Otl naional flags of monarchies did have a lot of heraldry and symbols rather than simply comprise of different colour.

 

[Zagan]

Otl naional flags of monarchies did have a lot of heraldry and symbols rather than simply comprise of different colour.

Yes. Some of them had, some others had not.

Since it would have been extremely complicated to design so many Coats of Arms, I had decided to make this difference between National Flags and Royal Flags.

The main idea (other than lazyness / lack of talent) was (simplified) that TTL is in an Age of Nationalism, the common people are loving their countries and want to fly their Flags, but they should not fly the Sovereign's Coat of Arms, so the difference between the National and Royal Flags.

 

[Zagan]

European Countries in 1627​

Notes:
1. Please excuse the rather wide picture (those of you having not so wide screens).
2. Armenia is not a country yet.
3. Some translations might be wrong and a few are missing. Help would be appreciated.
4. There are some inconsistencies in the International and Internal naming of the rulers. They are intentional.
5. Population figures are estimates.
6. Areas are approximates.
7. Only European territories are taken into consideration (i.e. no Colonies, no Iberian Africa, no Asian Russia).
8. The spoilers are quite innocent.
9. English means rather International in this context (not that English was internationally used back then).
10. I do not know the Georgian and Armenian alphabets.
11. The comma in the numbers in Population Column is actually a decimal separator. I could not get my Excel to display a decimal dot there. It insists to put a decimal comma (because of the Romanian locale).
12. Some spellings represent the Medieval variant. They are not mistakes.
13. The Table reflects the situation in 1627, just after the Great Powers Conference and the creation of Scandinavia, the Italian Confederation and Hungary. The situation will change and the changes will be reflected in other up to date tables as well as some comparative tables. I like tables.
.

 

[Avrorrange]

Yes. Some of them had, some others had not.

Since it would have been extremely complicated to design so many Coats of Arms, I had decided to make this difference between National Flags and Royal Flags.

The main idea (other than lazyness / lack of talent) was (simplified) that TTL is in an Age of Nationalism, the common people are loving their countries and want to fly their Flags, but they should not fly the Sovereign's Coat of Arms, so the difference between the National and Royal Flags.

Wouldn't early national flags and Royal flags be virtually indistinguishable in a lot of cases?

 

[Zagan]

Wouldn't early national flags and Royal flags be virtually indistinguishable in a lot of cases?

Yes, some of them. The ones not defaced with the Royal Coats of Arms, like those of Britannia, Romania or Greece.

 

[Sian]

note a few things.

The Danish (Scandinavian) King would likely still be noted as IV, and even if only counting the 'Christian's that also ruled Sweden he would be III.

Christian IV was known as a builder, and could certainly get the idea of building heavily around Göteborg which only barely had been founded at this point, with the explicit intention of sooner or later moving the capital there as it would be more central (maybe as parts of an argeement with the Swedish nobility to make it a less bitter pill to shallow as it was only a scant 100 years ago they succeded in forcing their independence). It have the Norwegian Bohuslän only a handful of miles to the north, while Danish Halland is similarily only a handful of miles to the south, and would be a great compromise capital.

Also, i've never seen anyone stating that his native name was Rex Christianus. It was at best his intended (not actual) internationalized (Latin) name ... i doubt anyone actually called him that unless they were extremely formal and had a very good grasp of chruch latin (so... the Bishops? maybe even only the archbishop given the lack of use of the latin bible by then). The Scandinavian name would be 'Kong Christian IV'

In length of his love for building and improving the infrastructure of the country, i could certainly see Christian IV promoting a population exchange with southern sweden in hopes that it could get heavily argicultured in line with how Denmark was already at this point, and not as heavily forested, with the intention of promoting population growth as Scandinavia has one of the smallest populations, but prehaps largest protential % increases posible even with the then-current technology, if Sweden up to the lakes (to where the climate is certainly able to handle it) was put under the plough. Would also conviently mean that they would sit with large ammounts of lumber and timber which could be used to build up Göteborg and expand the navy buth so they truely is in control of the baltic sea, and also so they can start competing for control over the North Sea, North Atlantic and Arctic Seas

 

[Zagan]

note a few things.

1. The Danish (Scandinavian) King would likely still be noted as IV, and even if only counting the 'Christian's that also ruled Sweden he would be III.

2. Christian IV was known as a builder, and could certainly get the idea of building heavily around Göteborg which only barely had been founded at this point, with the explicit intention of sooner or later moving the capital there as it would be more central (maybe as parts of an argeement with the Swedish nobility to make it a less bitter pill to shallow as it was only a scant 100 years ago they succeded in forcing their independence). It have the Norwegian Bohuslän only a handful of miles to the north, while Danish Halland is similarily only a handful of miles to the south, and would be a great compromise capital.

3. Also, i've never seen anyone stating that his native name was Rex Christianus. It was at best his intended (not actual) internationalized (Latin) name ... i doubt anyone actually called him that unless they were extremely formal and had a very good grasp of chruch latin (so... the Bishops? maybe even only the archbishop given the lack of use of the latin bible by then).

4. In length of his love for building and improving the infrastructure of the country, i could certainly see Christian IV promoting a population exchange with southern sweden in hopes that it could get heavily argicultured in line with how Denmark was already at this point, and not as heavily forested, with the intention of promoting population growth as Scandinavia has one of the smallest populations, but prehaps largest protential % increases posible even with the then-current technology, if Sweden up to the lakes (to where the climate is certainly able to handle it) was put under the plough. Would also conviently mean that they would sit with large ammounts of lumber and timber which could be used to build up Göteborg and expand the navy buth so they truely is in control of the baltic sea, and also so they can start competing for control over the North Sea, North Atlantic and Arctic Seas

1. He was the first king of Scandinavia. It has been decided to restart the numbering for newly created countries.

2. Correct. And I will have them move the capital to Göteborg. But this table shows the situation in 1627, less than a year after the unification.

3. The word King is different in Danish and Swedish so at least before the languages (dialects of Scandinavian) are merged, this compromise solution is used.

4. These are all good ideas for the future. The countries have just unified.
Woudn't you like to write a contribution about Scandinavia? You seem to grasp the situation very well.
I love the idea of members contributing pieces of text dealing with the situation in particular countries (except Romania of course).

5. I was not able to translate Commonwealth in any Scandinavian Language.

Thank you.

 

[Sian]

3. the languages are so mutually intelligent that I can't see Kong not still being used, as the difference between Kong and Kung can very easily come down to a precieved dialect difference. We're certainly not quite yet at a point where any of the languages have been standardized, neither in writen nor spoken form. A writen standard might come up relatively quickly, but the differences in the spoken languages might still be quite distinct all the way up to mass communication of newspapers and radio, unless there is a heavy population exchange between the different parts of the country

4. I'm relatively knowledgeble, but i have less than no talent in writing it down in terms of a coherent text ... Tried several times both with AH and fanfiction (and fiction for that matter) and just can't do it. I have a good clue what i want to write but i'm just unable to get it down as text.

5. Kongeriget Skandinavien ... 'Rige' is of the same name (Latin Regnum) as Reich and Realm is born out of, and would probably be translated into something like "Scandinavian Realm", even if the literal translation would be 'Kings Realm of Scandinavia'

 

[Zagan]

3. the languages are so mutually intelligent that I can't see Kong not still being used, as the difference between Kong and Kung can very easily come down to a precieved dialect difference. We're certainly not quite yet at a point where any of the languages have been standardized, neither in writen nor spoken form. A writen standard might come up relatively quickly, but the differences in the spoken languages might still be quite distinct all the way up to mass communication of newspapers and radio, unless there is a heavy population exchange between the different parts of the country

4. I'm relatively knowledgeble, but i have less than no talent in writing it down in terms of a coherent text ... Tried several times both with AH and fanfiction (and fiction for that matter) and just can't do it. I have a good clue what i want to write but i'm just unable to get it down as text.

5. Kongeriget Skandinavien ... 'Rige' is of the same name (Latin Regnum) as Reich and Realm is born out of, and would probably be translated into something like "Scandinavian Realm", even if the literal translation would be 'Kings Realm of Scandinavia'

3. 5. Got it. I will use that when I will edit the Table.

4. I can try to write it if you P.M. me a coherent set of ideas.

 

[Zagan]

I would love to get Contributions from you, my readers.

TTL was supposed to be Romanian TL. It somehow happened that it morphed into an European-wide TL (and it will get to be a World-wide TL later on).

Because my knowledge of the Medieval History of a particular country is not so good (as someone's who is from that country) and because of lack of time (I preffer to focus on Romania), there might be a good idea to receive Contributions and to post them after a brief editing.

So, I make an appeal to you all:
1. Enroll officially with a post stating the country of your choice.
2. Write short Contributions about that country which fit into the story (I am more interested in internal developements, no wars of conquest which would break the cohesiveness of the story).
3. P.M. (Private Message) the written Contributions to me.
4. I will do a short check and editing and I will post them, with Attribution to you.

Thank you.

 

[Sian]

One thing you have to remember when thinking of the Scandinavian languages is that they (Continental languages at least) are one of the primarily used proofs for the saying that "A language is a dialect with a army and navy" even if it was said with Yiddish in mind, and it is one big Dialect continuum even today, where you only have to keep focus to understand the others, and in certain instances might be easier to understand than the more obscure/distinct dialects of your own country (For an example, I have an easier time understanding Scanian, than i have understanding South Jutlandic while living in Copenhagen, and speaking Suburban copenhagen)

 

[Zagan]

One thing you have to remember when thinking of the Scandinavian languages is that they (Continental languages at least) are one of the primarily used proofs for the saying that "A language is a dialect with a army and navy" even if it was said with Yiddish in mind, and it is one big Dialect continuum even today, where you only have to keep focus to understand the others, and in certain instances might be easier to understand than the more obscure/distinct dialects of your own country (For an example, I have an easier time understanding Scanian, than i have understanding South Jutlandic while living in Copenhagen, and speaking Suburban copenhagen)

Yes, I know that. TTL there will be only one Scandinavian Language with maybe another one Islandese-Feroese.

TTL Unified Languages rate of succes:
- Iberian (~50%);
- French (100%);
- English (100%);
- German (>90%);
- Sarmatian (<10%);
- Romanian (100%);
- Scandinavian (100%);
- Russian (100%);
- Italian (>90%);
- Greek (>90%).

 

[Sian]

Even Icelandic / Faroese would become part of the language so to speak, even if they would be considered rather archaic dialects hailing from a far-gone time.

Also ... found this post which makes a good overview of the scandinavian languages.

A Modern TTL Scandinavian language would likely look mostly like Danish / Norwegian Bokmål in terms of writing, but listen more like Swedish/Norwegian when spoken. Finish and Lappish would be supressed and given the control of whiteland it might well actually succeed in making those extremely small minority lanuages with prehaps a few thousand speakers by modern era