"Io Mihailŭ, Împĕratul Românilor" - A Michael the Brave Romania Wank

[Salvador79]

Of course, but a little later.
You see, for example the British and Dutch Colonies in North America (the future OTL USA) have probably no more than 50,000 people at this time (1626). No interesting things can happen there.

Don`t tell that to a Mohawk...
With New Netherlands having lost its motherland, would New Sweden be able to expand further North? Or will the German Empire take over the colony and thus involve itself actively (a powerful player!) in North America`s colonisation? German-British conflict would immediately ensue.
Some say that the mutlicultural, religiously tolerant atmosphere of New Netherland was a model for New English polities. ITTL, nationalism is already rampant, so we`ll have none of that.
Everywhere, indigenous populations are faced not just with greedy landgrabbers and traders, but also with nationalist colonial governments. That MUST change Europen-native interaction and also the fate of the latter dramatically.

 

[Zagan]

Don`t tell that to a Mohawk...
With New Netherlands having lost its motherland, would New Sweden be able to expand further North? Or will the German Empire take over the colony and thus involve itself actively (a powerful player!) in North America`s colonisation? German-British conflict would immediately ensue.
Some say that the mutlicultural, religiously tolerant atmosphere of New Netherland was a model for New English polities. ITTL, nationalism is already rampant, so we`ll have none of that.
Everywhere, indigenous populations are faced not just with greedy landgrabbers and traders, but also with nationalist colonial governments. That MUST change Europen-native interaction and also the fate of the latter dramatically.

This is a very complicated problem (the fate of the orphan Dutch colonies). I will give you no spoilers, but I can assure you that it will be discussed in the following chapters.

Besides being a declared Romania-Wank, TTL will morph into a massive Europe-Wank. Possibly less genocide than OTL but surely more assimilation (cultural, religious, national, etc).

 

[Salvador79]

Now, here are the problems:
- India: may fall more or less like IOTL.
- Indonesia: Muslim, so see point 2.
- Indochina: may fall more or less like IOTL.
- Korea, Japan, China: ??

Is Christianization (at least partial) possible anywhere? Where? How deep?

India: Maybe, but not necessarily to the British. And bringing the idea of nationalism with them, Europeans will give all sorts of Indians all sorts of crazy ideas. Might be a rather bloody mess!
Indochina: See India. IOTL, the idea of nation states only caught on with the Thai early enough for them to withstand colonisation. Might not be the same TTL.
Korea, Japan, China: Here, too, the soil for nationalism is fertile. It´ll prevent mercantile concessions and isolation. It´ll shut the door in the missionaries` faces. It could lead to a race for hegemony, which needn`t necessarily be won by the largest player, China, if someone else gets a head-start.
Christianisation: As mentioned above, IMO nationalist Europeans will provoke a nationalist East Asia (and India), and that`ll prevent Christianisation, which IOTL managed to be smuggled through the half-open door in a cultural region where religious plurality and tolerance had been the norm for millennia.

Actually, even in the Americas and in Africa, colonisation could proceed very differently. In the Americas, as I´ve mentioned, it´ll inspire a different sort of resistance and a different sort of colonial policy towards it. American groups may be too weak at this point, but the history of their disappearance will look differently nevertheless.
In Africa, European nationalism will impede your project of de-Islamisation. If the Sahelian Empires get infected by the virus of nationalism, they`ll defend their faith to the last drop of martyr blood. Perhaps. You see, the difference to Ottoman Europe is that you don`t have Christian ethnic minorities who could be made to want to get rid of their Ottoman Muslim oppressors, you have Islamic groups who could only be converted by massive force. Who will invest in this costly, cruel, and highly unprofitable business?

 

[Zagan]

India: Maybe, but not necessarily to the British. And bringing the idea of nationalism with them, Europeans will give all sorts of Indians all sorts of crazy ideas. Might be a rather bloody mess!
Indochina: See India. IOTL, the idea of nation states only caught on with the Thai early enough for them to withstand colonisation. Might not be the same TTL.
Korea, Japan, China: Here, too, the soil for nationalism is fertile. It´ll prevent mercantile concessions and isolation. It´ll shut the door in the missionaries` faces. It could lead to a race for hegemony, which needn`t necessarily be won by the largest player, China, if someone else gets a head-start.
Christianisation: As mentioned above, IMO nationalist Europeans will provoke a nationalist East Asia (and India), and that`ll prevent Christianisation, which IOTL managed to be smuggled through the half-open door in a cultural region where religious plurality and tolerance had been the norm for millennia.

Actually, even in the Americas and in Africa, colonisation could proceed very differently. In the Americas, as I´ve mentioned, it´ll inspire a different sort of resistance and a different sort of colonial policy towards it. American groups may be too weak at this point, but the history of their disappearance will look differently nevertheless.
In Africa, European nationalism will impede your project of de-Islamisation. If the Sahelian Empires get infected by the virus of nationalism, they`ll defend their faith to the last drop of martyr blood. Perhaps. You see, the difference to Ottoman Europe is that you don`t have Christian ethnic minorities who could be made to want to get rid of their Ottoman Muslim oppressors, you have Islamic groups who could only be converted by massive force. Who will invest in this costly, cruel, and highly unprofitable business?

Correct. The conquest of most of the Earth's surface is not going to be an easy task.

But I do not think that nationalism (or something similar) could catch in Africa or the Americas where tribal-based societies were the norm.

The colonial policies will be different (slightly or massively).
The first test of the new (and extremely costly) policy is the Iberian North Africa.

 

[Salvador79]

The first test of the new (and extremely costly) policy is the Iberian North Africa.

Huh, I expect the Iberian Empire will get a good mauling, even if they manage to destroy existing state structures there. I wonder what that would do to their empire and its huge American possessions...
But I´ll shut up now and wait at the edge of my seat for your updates

 

[mlp]

Posted per request.

Ok.

Yes, because I know very little about Medieval East Asian History.

You see, the common plans of "Europe" / "The Great Powers Council" are something like that:
1. Colonisation of the Americas (and Australia, New Zealand, Pacific, etc, later).
2. Conquest and destruction of Muslim States.
3. Benevolent involvement, political and economical influence and attempted Christianization in India, China and the Far East.

Now, here are the problems:
- India: may fall more or less like IOTL.
- Indonesia: Muslim, so see point 2.
- Indochina: may fall more or less like IOTL.
- Korea, Japan, China: ??

Is Christianization (at least partial) possible anywhere? Where? How deep?

Now firstly, I doubt East Asia can see any strong influence of Europe at this time. Christianisation took a very long time in the Philippines, and Korea was Christianised in the 20th century.
On Christianity in Europe: is there still a Protestantism vs. Catholicism conflict? Do they compete against each other? Or are they cooperating against the Muslims?
An interesting thing you could do is have Korea be led earlier by Gwanghaegun(OTL in 1608, 1601 TTL could be good - reason is because previous monarch died early). OTL he was an apt ruler that saw to neutral diplomacy, while attempting to influence politics in other nations - TTL he could attempt rejuvenation of the country by opening up to trade, although I don't know how effective that'll be. This allows Korea to dominate East Asian trade(both China and Japan closes off to maritime trade soon enough) and be competitors against the Europeans.
Now back to the issue raised: is there a conflict between the two sects of Christianity? If there is Korea could play them against each other, if there isn't Korea may attempt an alliance with other non-Christian countries like Siam or Dai Viet against the Europeans. Anyway very interesting possibilities arise from there.

First of all, please reply in the thread (the only exception beign when you want to communicate secret information, like proposing contributions to the TL).
I think that this conversation can be moved (copy-pasted) in the TL thread. It contains important information for everyone to read.

Europe will be more assertive in East Asia later, perhaps in about a century.
I will keep you informed and maybe you would like to contribute with a piece of text about TTL 17xx Korea.

The conflicts between Catholicism and Protestantism are dying down. Diplomacy and past wars had more or less decided the spheres of influence:
- Catholic: Iberian Empire, France, Italian Confederation, Croatia, Sarmatia (with Ruthenians Uniates - Catholics as well).
- Protestant: Britannia (with Catholic Irish persecuted), German Empire (with Catholics having certain rights), Scandinavia.
- Mixed (possibly trouble, but small countries anyway): Slovakia, Hungary.
- Orthodox: Russia, Georgia, Armenia, Greece, Romania (with partial freedom of religion).
- Oriental / Mixed: Ethiopia, Levant (later), Egipt (later).

 

[Zagan]

Huh, I expect the Iberian Empire will get a good mauling, even if they manage to destroy existing state structures there. I wonder what that would do to their empire and its huge American possessions...
But I´ll shut up now and wait at the edge of my seat for your updates

I have already given some little spoilers about North Africa in the chapters about the Anti-Ottoman Crusade:
It will be a century-long struggle ending in an Iberian "victory" with very high total Iberian casualties and being an overall money sink (at least before the fertile littoral begins to pay off).
The Iberian Empire will lose some other lands though.

 

[Zagan]

While I am still busy preparing the new chapter, have another nice map!

Northern Europe around 1630​

Legend:

Red: Commonwealth of Scandinavia
- Denmark (Schleswig, Jutland, Danish Arhipelago, Scania, Bornholm, Gotland);
- Norway (Norway proper, Feroe, Iceland); Partial control over Northern areas;
- Sweden (acceded in 1626); Partial control over Northern areas;
- Finland (bought in 1625 from Sarmatia; including Karelia); Partial control over Northern and Eastern areas;
- Greenland (Colony); Partial or no actual control over most areas;
- Whiteland (Colony; from 1620-1630; including OTL Kola, Kanin, Kogulev, White Sea Coasts); Partial or no actual control over most areas;
- Other Colonies all over the World.

Red Border only: Lost Areas
- Swedish Estonia (lost to Sarmatia in the Sarmatian-Swedish War);
- Finnish Ingria (retained by Sarmatia in the 1625 Treaty);
- Danish Estonia (sold to Sarmatia in the 1625 Treaty).

Brown: Sarmatia (only Northern part visible)
- Former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth;
- Annexed Vassals: Prussia, Livonia, others (not shown on the map);
- Annexed Russian territories (not all shown on the map);
- Other annexed territories (not shown on the map: Crimean Khanate, Azov, parts of Nogay Khanate, parts of Circassia, Abkhazia, etc);
- Former Swedish Estonia;
- Former Finnish Ingria;
- Former Danish Estonia.

Black Border only: Other Countries
- Kingdom of Britannia (Ireland, Scotland, England, Isle of Man, Channel Islands; not all shown on the map);
- German Empire (only Northernmost area - parts of Holstein, Mecklenburg and Pomerania);
- Sarmatia (see above);
- Russia (rump; civil war until cca. 1627).


Note: In 1625, Sarmatia sold Finland (without Finnish Ingria) to Scandinavia in exchange for Danish Estonia (Osel), some money and the right of free passage through the Baltic Sea and the Danish Straits.

 

[Zagan]

I considered the advice recieved regarding the flags and decided the following:

1. The Flag of Iberia will be changed. I am however stuck.
It should contain some of:
- the Colors Red, White, Yellow and Blue (Castile, Aragon and Portugal);
- a Red Burgundy Cross on White background (Habsburgs);
- a Blue Cross on White background (Portugal);
- Red and White Rectangles (Castile);
- Yellow and Red Stripes (Aragon).
I am still in need of help with it.

2. The Flag of France could be changed to the more historical one (Variant 2).

3. The Flag of Britannia could be changed (because of no Irish saltire at that time yet) to the historical one (Variant 2).

6. The Flag of Romania could be changed (later*) to chrispi's (Variant 2).
* = Not before the death of Mihai anyway. In his dream, Mihai saw the various Romanians placing their Blue, Yellow, Red and Black Flags on the same flag pole.

12. Variants 1 and 2 of the proposed flags for the Italian Confederation have already been changed in the original post (Heavy black crosses removed).

 

[Zagan]

Flags Update

1. The Flag of Iberia may be changed to Variant 2 (using Chrispi's idea for the Romanian Flag), or to Variant 3 (using Karolus Rex's Idea).

6. And then the Flag of Romania will possibly stay unchanged. (Black adjacent to Dark Blue does not look very good and Light Blue is not a Romanian color.)

 

[Karolus Rex]

For the Iberian flag may I suggest the one that was proposed by the Catalan Sinibaldo de Mas i Sans for a federal Iberia

The Blue and White of Portugal, with the Red and Yellow of Spain

 

[Zagan]

For the Iberian flag may I suggest the one that was proposed by the Catalan Sinibaldo de Mas i Sans for a federal Iberia

[snip]

The Blue and White of Portugal, with the Red and Yellow of Spain

That as well... I will make up my mind soon enough.

 

[Zagan]

I was asked several times about "the rest of the World".

While I am not ready yet for a chapter about the Worldwide situation, I can show you a very sketchy, low accuracy, low resolution World Map.

World Map ~1630​

Notes:
1. Borders are approximative.
2. Actual control may be tenous or almost non-existent in some areas.
3. The low resolution is intentional.
4. Only "important" states are shown, using the usual colors.
5. When the colonial borders will have more precision and significance, a better, clearer map will be provided.
6. The Dutch Colonies have been appropriated by the British (most of them) and the Iberians (the Guyanas and some Islands). The Germans have, ahem, protested...

 

[Sian]

with the lack of money getting thrown between Sweden and Denmark (in terms of warring), i could see Scandinavia leapfrogging into Hudson Bay from their greenlandic trade posts, maybe with the aim at cornering the fur trade so they sit on near-monopoly of fur both from North America and northern europe

 

[Zagan]

with the lack of money getting thrown between Sweden and Denmark (in terms of warring), i could see Scandinavia leapfrogging into Hudson Bay from their greenlandic trade posts, maybe with the aim at cornering the fur trade so they sit on near-monopoly of fur both from North America and northern europe

This is the intention. Baffin Island is already known (but not known if it is an island or a part of the mainland). Hudson Bay is just on its other side.
The Strait between Labrador and Baffin will be discovered very soon if not already found by accident by some fishermen.

Overall, ITTL Geographic discoveries will happen faster (because of less wars in Europe, but more colonial wars / enterprises).

 

[Zagan]

Romance Languages in Iberia

In TTL, in 1626, Europe is composed of several large States / Empires (Iberian Empire, France, Britannia, German Empire, Scandinavia, Sarmatia, Romania, Russia) and some lesser States, mainly in Italy and central Europe.

Most of these States had become unitary, centralized, National States way ahead of OTL. One of the desiderates of a National State is the existence of a single Nation / people, speaking a single language and having a single religion and culture.

And now the questions, maily about the Iberian Empire, though if you have information about some of the other mega-states, it would be welcomed as well.

1. How different were the Iberian languages in 1625? Were they mutually intelligible?

2. How well standardized were they? What about the alphabets?

3. Was there a comprehensive literature in the vernaculars yet?

4. Was there an Academy / Decisional Forum with regard to languages?

5. Would it still be feasable (with the backing of a powerful state apparatus) to merge them into an Iberian language at that time?

Thank you.

 

[Sian]

To a certain extent I think that Iberia would have the same kind of political issues as Kalmar Union had OTL, in that they have some wildly different opinions in where the country should go.

Portugal want to move out in the world, Castile want to go out for 'loose cash', gold and silver and exotic goods easily transportable for great profits, in America but prefers otherwise to focus on continuing the reconquestia in north africa, while Aragon (and Naples) want to focus on making western (and Central) mediterranean a private lake ... Castile can to a certain extend be able to cover one of the poles, to an acceptable degree, but its an open question if they'll be able to cover both Portugals 'wanderlust' and the more locally focused Aragon

 

[Zagan]

To a certain extent I think that Iberia would have the same kind of political issues as Kalmar Union had OTL, in that they have some wildly different opinions in where the country should go.

Portugal want to move out in the world, Castile want to go out for 'loose cash', gold and silver and exotic goods easily transportable for great profits, in America but prefers otherwise to focus on continuing the reconquestia in north africa, while Aragon (and Naples) want to focus on making western (and Central) mediterranean a private lake ... Castile can to a certain extend be able to cover one of the poles, to an acceptable degree, but its an open question if they'll be able to cover both Portugals 'wanderlust' and the more locally focused Aragon

Yes, there are issues and will be severe trouble in the future.

Right now:
- Portugal is interested mainly in the Colonies (correct);
- Castile is interested mainly in the Reconquista (correct), but Aragon is as well (no more Barbary pirates and Western Mediterranian Lake);
- The Western Mediterranian is already almost an Iberian Lake (see maps).
- The King has moved the Capital to Lisbon and tries to undo the last decades of neglect of Portugal, with mixed results.

TTL Scandinavia OTOH does not have these problems. The only direction it can expand is in North America.

 

[Sian]

OTL Scandinavia OTOH does not have these problems. The only direction it can expand is in North America.

Think you mean TTL Scandinavia ... and they do theoreticly also have the option (depending on their relationship with Sarmatia, as a protential ally in keeping Russia unstable) of pushing along the Arctic Sea controling what trade there is there.

 

[Zagan]

Think you mean TTL Scandinavia ... and they do theoreticly also have the option (depending on their relationship with Sarmatia, as a protential ally in keeping Russia unstable) of pushing along the Arctic Sea controling what trade there is there.

Yes, thanks, corrected.

Yes, they already conquered some arctic lands formerly in the Russian sphere of influence (not actually Russian territory though), see map.