Henry Tudor, Heretic and Father of Kings

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Cate13, Nov 4, 2018.

  1. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

    Nov 16, 2018
    I suspect Marie's title is more ironic, because she's the Maitresse-en-titre, but the King looks to her more than to his actual Queen. At least, that's how I'm reading it.
    Cate13 likes this.
  2. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    So, OTL Mary Tudor, Duchess of Suffolk got be address as Queen because she had been anointed as Queen of France, even though she wasn’t the queen of France anymore.

    Marie Stuart is the widow of the previous King of France. She had been crowned as Queen of France. So I may be wrong, (if I am we can use the ironic, she’s treated like a Queen idea) but I think since she was crowned and anointed as Queen of France she is still a Queen even if she isn’t Queen of France anymore.
  3. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

    Nov 16, 2018
    I think she'd be Dowager Queen, not Maitresse-en-titre. Unless she's both, which is incestuously weird, but is what you seem to be saying with your posts. But, if she is just Dowager Queen, then I think you're right in that she'd still be styled as a Queen because she was crowned and anointed - though she'd have to yield to Helene precedence wise...
    Cate13 likes this.
  4. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    The previous King was the cousin of the current King, so Marie being the Maitresse-en-titre of her dead husband's cousin is definitely weird, but hardly weirder that other things that have happened in the French Court. And yes, Marie Stuart should yield to Helene, regardless on the Dowager Queen status, but she's not which is why they're fighting for dominance.
  5. Threadmarks: Tudor Family, Arthur I Tudor's decedents in 1570

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    Arthur I Tudor, deceased, King of England m. Infanta Catalina Trastamara of Aragon, deceased

    3) Margaret Tudor, deceased, Princess of Wales m. Francis Tudor, deceased, Prince of Wales, then Duke of Calais
    1) Kathryn I Tudor, age 47, Queen of England m. Alexander I Stewart, deceased, Duke of Rothesay
    1) Margaret I Stewart, age 9, Princess of Wales​

    6) Mary Tudor, age 56, Queen Claimant of England m. Ferdinand I, deceased
    1) Elisabeth Habsburg, age 39, Abbess of Nonnberg
    5) Arthur Habsburg, age 29, Holy Roman Emperor, King Claimant of England m. Margaret Stewart, age 34, Princess of Scotland and Ireland
    1) Charles Habsburg, age 9
    2) Catherine Habsburg, age 2​
    6) Helena Habsburg, age 27, Queen of France m. Louis Valois, age 30, King of France
    1) Marie Louise Valois, age 5
    2) Francis Valois, newborn​
  6. Threadmarks: Tudor Family, Margaret Tudor's decedents in 1570

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    Margaret Tudor, deceased, m. a) James IV Stewart, deceased, King of Scotland; b) James Hamilton, deceased, 1st Earl of Arran

    3a) James V Stewart, deceased, King of Scotland m. Louise Valois, deceased, Princes of France
    2) Margaret Stewart, age 34, Princess of Scotland and Ireland m. Arthur Habsburg, age 29, Holy Roman Emperor
    See Arthur​
    3) James VI Stewart, age 31, King of Scotland and Ireland m. A) Juana Trastamara [1], deceased; B) Grainne O’Malley, age 40
    1a) Marjorie Stewart, age 9
    2a) James Stewart, age 3
    3b) Seamus/James Stewart, age 2
    4b) Maeve Stewart, age 1​
    4) Charles Stewart, deceased, Duke of Rothesay m. Margaret Valois deceased, Queen Claimant of France
    1) Margaret Stuart, age 7​
    5) Mary Stewart, age 28, Maîtresse-En-Titre x Louis Valois, age 30, King of France
    1) Louise Stuart, age 7​

    4a) Alexander Stewart, deceased, Duke of Rothesay m. Katheryn I Tudor, age 47, Queen of England
    See Katheryn Tudor​

    5b) Elizabeth Hamilton, age 41, m. Gerald FitzGerald, 11th Earl of Kildare
    1) James FitzGerald, age 22
    2) Margaret FitzGerald, age 18
    3) Gerald FitzGerald, age 13
    [1] Eldest daughter of Ferdinand III Trastamara
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
    Mccarthypaddy1216 and savemase like this.
  7. Threadmarks: Tudor Family, Henry Tudor's decedents in 1570

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    Henry II Tudor, age 79, Duke of York and Richmond m. a) Catherine of Navarre, deceased, Queen of Navarre; b) Anne Boleyn, deceased; c) Sybylle Von der Mark, deceased, Princess of Cleves; d) Mary Howard, deceased; e) Renee of France, deceased, Duchess of Chartres; f) Catherine Willoughby, age 51, Baroness Willoughby de Eresby

    1a) Henry III Tudor, age 66, King of Navarre m. Johanna Sophia/Jeanne Sophie Wettin, deceased, Princess of Saxony [1]
    1) Jeanne Tudor, deceased, Princess of Navarre m. René I, Viscount of Rohan
    1) Anne de Rohan, age 26m. Alessandro Borgia, age 40, Duke of Romagna [3]
    1) Isabella Borgia, age 8
    2) Cesare Borgia, age 5
    3) Enrico Borgia, age 1​
    2) Henri Tudor, age 48 m. Christina Oldenburg, age 48, Princess of Denmark
    1) Antoine Tudor, deceased
    2) Christian Tudor, age 18
    3) Anne Tudor, age 11​
    3) Anne Sophie Tudor, age 45, Princess of Navarre m. Francis, Duke of Guise, age 51
    1) Henri of Guise, age 22
    2) Jeanne Elizabeth of Guise, age 17 m. Francois de Bourbon, age 28, Duke of Montpensier
    3) Frances of Guise, age 12​
    4) Francis Tudor, age 36, Prince of Navarre m. Marie Francoise of Brittany, age 33, Duchess of Brittany
    1) Anne Marie Tudor, age 15
    2) Henri Tudor, age 11
    3) Jean Francis Tudor, age 7
    4) Charles Tudor, age 1​

    2a) Francis Tudor, deceased, Duke of Calais m. Margaret Tudor, deceased, Princess of Wales
    See Margaret Tudor ​

    3a) Charles Tudor, deceased, Duke of Calais m. Leonora Borgia, age 57 [2]
    1) Charlotte Tudor, age 39, 2nd Duchess of Calais m. Baron Thomas Boleyn, deceased
    1) Charles Boleyn, age 19 m. Catherine Courtenay, age 20 [8]
    2) Eleonore Boleyn, age 16
    3) Anne Boleyn, age 13​
    2) Eleanor Tudor, age 23 m. Gregory Cromwell, age 27, 2nd Duke of Suffolk
    See Gregory ​

    4b) Elizabeth Tudor, age 48, m. Gregory Cromwell, deceased
    1) Gregory Cromwell, age 27, 2nd Duke of Suffolk m. Eleanor Tudor, age 23
    1) Thomas Cromwell, age 5
    2) Henry Cromwell, age 2​
    2) Anne Cromwell, age 24 m. Thomas Cecil, age 28, Earl of Salisbury [6]
    1) Henry Cecil, deceased
    2) Anne Cecil, age 1​
    3) Thomas Cromwell, age 20​

    6b) Eleanor Tudor, age 43, m. Frederick Albert, deceased, King of Denmark and Norway [4]
    1) Margaret Wittelsbach, age 23
    2) John Albert Wittelsbach, age 20, King of Denmark and Norway m. Dorothea Oldenburg, age 24 [5]
    3) Anna Wittelsbach, age 15​

    8c) Johann Tudor, age 31, Duke of Julich-Cleves-Berg m. Marie Elisabeth, age 29, Princess of Saxony
    1) Karl Tudor, age 9
    2) Mathilde Tudor, age 8
    3) Johann Tudor, age 6
    4) Henry Tudor, age 5
    5) Elisabeth Tudor, age 4
    6) Sybylle Tudor, deceased
    7) Sydonie Tudor, age 2​

    9d) Thomas Tudor, age 27, Archbishop of Canterbury ​

    10d) Margaret Tudor, age 26, m. William IV, age 38, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel
    1) Anna Sofie of Hesse-Kassel, age 7
    2) William Henry of Hesse-Kassel, age 3
    3) Renata of Hesse-Kassel, age 1 ​

    11e) Cecily Tudor, age 20 m. Edward Stafford, age 16, 5th Duke of Buckingham [7]
    1) Edward Stafford, newborn ​

    12e) Madelyn Tudor, age 17 ​

    13e) Francis Tudor, age 13, Duke of Chartes​

    14f) Edmund Tudor, age 10
    [1] OTL Johann Frederick I, Elector of Saxony
    [2] daughter of Cesare Borgia and Charlotte d’Albret, since Cesare Borgia didn’t die in 1507.
    [3] son of Cesare Borgia and his second wife, Livia Osanna Gonzaga
    [4] son of Frederick II, Elector Palatine and Dorothea of Denmark, OTL none of their sons lived to adulthood
    [5] daughter of Christian III and Dorothea of Saxe-Lauenburg
    [6] OTL was Earl of Essex
    [7] grandson of Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham, without OTL paranoid Henry VIII as king the Staffords are still doing okay
    [8] daughter of Edward Courtenay, 1st Earl of Devon
  8. Threadmarks: Tudor Family, Mary Tudor's decedents in 1570

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    Mary Tudor, deceased, m. John III Aviz, deceased, King of Portugal

    2) Maria Aviz, age 51, Infanta of Portugal m. Prince Francis Valois, deceased, Duke of Brittany
    1) Marie Francoise Valois, age 33, Duchess of Brittany m. Francis Tudor, age 36, Prince of Navarre
    See Francis Tudor​

    3) John Emmanuel I Aviz, age 49, King of Portugal m. Caterina Maria Romula di Lorenzo de Medici, age 51
    2) Sebastian I Aviz, age 24 m. Bianca of Savoy, age 31 [1]
    1) Maria Manuela Aviz, age 9
    2)Catalina Aviz, deceased​
    3) Maria Isabella Aviz, age 19
    4) Maria Joanna Aviz, age 13​
    4) Anthony Aviz, age 46, Cardinal
    [1] The daughter of Charles III, Duke of Savoy, and Eleanor Habsburg. Eleanor Habsburg is the daughter of Maximillian I, Holy Roman Emperor and his second wife Bianca Mara Sforza. OTL they didn't have any children.
    iddt3 and savemase like this.
  9. Threadmarks: Section Sixty-Eight - early 1570s

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    AN Sorry of the delay. School has been a lot

    “Early in 1571, Kathryn Tudor would arrange the betrothal of Margaret Stewart [1] with John Tudor, the second son of Duke John of Julich-Cleves-Berg. The seven-year-old boy would shortly be sent to England to allow him to learn more of England and its customs.

    There he would be granted his own household and companions, among which were Thomas Cromwell, son of the Second Duke of Suffolk and Edmund Tudor, Prince Henry’s youngest son.”
    Thomas Nelson, “Kathryn Tudor and the Golden Era”​

    [1] Margaret Stewart, Princess of Wales, not Margaret Stewart, daughter of the Once Queen of France.

    “The little Princess is quite peculiar. To my complete and utter frustration, she will sit so still that I will forget that she is even there. Several times she has overheard things she is not meant to because of this. I am just grateful that she has not informed her mother the queen of the things she has learned. Nor has she told any of her ladies.”
    Journal entry of Baroness Grace Borough​

    “I find I don’t know what to make of the Princess. Her hair is a wonderful red-gold and she looks just like a princess ought. But she is so peculiar. When she looks at me I feel like she is looking through me straight to my soul. As we sit together and sew, she can go hours without speaking.

    She will often slip away, and no one will even notice. It seems so strange to me that the heir to the throne can be misplaced. When she is found, she is often up in a tree, writing in her little book.”
    Journal entry of Beth Seymour​

    “We have little to no real information about young Princess Margaret. In contrast to her forceful mother, Princess Margaret was quiet and reserved. She appears to have learned at a young age to keep her own council. Due to several journals and letters we know that she was an avid writer from as early as age eleven. Unfortunately, the only surviving work of Margaret Tudor is Camelot.

    Princess Margaret appears to have formed no close relationships with her early companions. None of them record any confidences shared or special privileges. It would not be till later that she would befriend her cousin Eleanor, Duchess of Suffolk, who was fifteen years her senior.”
    Professor Laura Anderson, “The Stewart Queen”​
  10. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

    Nov 16, 2018
    Little Margaret reminds me a bit of myself, really..
    Cate13 likes this.
  11. jkarr Well-Known Member

    Jul 20, 2010
    So....a medieval Tudor Vetinari-esque princess?

    Cate13 likes this.
  12. Tangles up aubergine Well-Known Member

    Jul 6, 2018
    This new Princess almost sounds like she could have a form of high functioning autism.
    Cate13 likes this.
  13. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    I'm going to take that as a complement ;)
  14. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    More extreme social anxiety. It doesn't help that people are literally paid to be her friends.
  15. Tyler96 Well-Known Member

    Feb 26, 2013
    Adelaide, South Australia
    Isn't all this intra-Tudor and Tudor-Stewart intermarriage getting a little inbreedy?

    I'm not sure if I've got the family tree right, but I think a child of John and Margaret would be...
    • A great-great grandson of Henry VII (Margaret Stewart Princess of Wales->Alexander Stewart Duke of Rothesay->Margaret Tudor Queen of Scotland->Henry VII Tudor).
    • A great-great-great grandson of Henry VII (Margaret Stewart POW->Kathryn Tudor Queen of England->Margaret Tudor Princess of Wales (1506-23)->Arthur Tudor King of England->Henry VII Tudor).
    • A great-great-great grandson of Henry VII (Margaret Stewart POW->Kathryn Queen of England->Francis Tudor Duke of Calais->Henry Tudor Duke of York and Richmond->Henry VII Tudor).
    • A great-great grandson of Henry VII (John Tudor jnr->John Tudor Duke of Cleves->Henry Tudor Duke of York and Richmond->Henry VII Tudor).
    Cate13 likes this.
  16. JuliantheUnknown Unknown Member

    Jun 11, 2016
    They definitely need to bring in some fresh blood after this.
    Cate13, Tyler96 and FalconHonour like this.
  17. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

    Nov 16, 2018
    I agree, but it is complicated when half the Princes/Princesses in Europe are your cousins, one way or another...
    Cate13 and JuliantheUnknown like this.
  18. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    Yep, I wasn’t planning on Margaret marrying a Tudor but then I realized she’d be a Stewart and that would really really bug Kathryn.

    But it’s not quite as bad it looks. Just look at Margaret, yes she is the granddaughter several times over of Henry VII, but each line brings in new blood.

    • Margaret Stewart -> Alexander Stewart -> James Stewart -> entirely different dna
    • Margaret Stewart -> Kathryn Tudor -> Margaret Tudor -> Catherine of Aragon -> different dna
    • Margaret Stewart-> Kathryn Tudor -> Francis Tudor -> Catherine of Navarre -> different dna

    The Tudors aren’t the OTL Habsburgs, they aren’t double cousin marriages and uncles to nieces. But yep, new blood next generation, once Kathryn is sure that the dynasty will be Tudors not something else.
    Tyler96 likes this.
  19. isabella Well-Known Member

    Mar 22, 2012
    Habsburgs inherited that bad thinking from the Avis and Trastámaras... And Bourbons after taking the Spanish crown continued to follow the tradition...
    Cate13 likes this.
  20. Threadmarks: Section Sixty-Nine - early 1570s

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    “Charlotte Tudor, Duchess of Calais, would shock the English Court when, late in fifteen seventy, she would remarry Sir Thomas Brandon. Sir Thomas Brandon was a widowed courtier whose name had been connected to several different prominent ladies including Elizabeth Tudor, Charlotte Tudor’s aunt.

    Sir Thomas Brandon was the only son of Sir Charles Brandon, a childhood friend of Prince Henry and is now believed to be the father of Thomas Cromwell the Younger. The marriage was wildly regarded as unequal and unsuitable. But, the Duchess of Calais was one of the more powerful members of the English Court and had Queen Kathryn’s favor.”
    Elizabeth Tudor, Duchess of Calais, “Kathryn Tudor” ​

    “Even with the Prince’s advancing age, it is the Queen’s will that if She were to die before the Princess’s majority, her grandfather will be regent. Truth be told, I would not be surprised if the Prince outlives us all.”
    Journal entry of Sir Thomas Wyatt the Younger​

    “Early in fifteen seventy-one, Prince Henry would leave England to visit his various children and grand-children scattered through Europe. The party would be small, just him, his youngest son ten-year-old Edmund Tudor, and a few trusted retainers.

    The first stop would be Navarre where Prince Henry was greeted joyfully by the country that once called him King. There, King Henri III and Prince Henry would be reunited for the first time in years. Prince Henry and his party would stay in Navarre for several months.

    The visit seems to have done much to rejuvenate King Henri III. The normally unflappable king, worn by the loss of his wife and the struggles of his heir and eldest son, had been in something of a funk for the past few months. Father and son would spend almost the entirety of the visit riding through woods or speaking together of religion, what we now call quality time.”
    Rachel Rowell, “Father of the Reawakening, and a Good Father”​