Henry Tudor, Heretic and Father of Kings

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Cate13, Nov 4, 2018.

  1. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    I think so, OTL Mary Tudor, Queen of France, would keep the title.
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  2. Threadmarks: Section Sixty - 1562

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    “England and Navarre stood with L'autre Henriand Charles IX in the determination that Margaret Valois was to inherit the crown of France. If Margaret Valois became Queen of France, the existing treaties between the three countries would be honored and what’s more the protestants and awakeners in France would be allowed to continue to practice their religion. [1]

    So, at the death of Charles IX, Kathryn Tudor ordered the English fleet to gather and prepare for war, and King Henri gathered Navarre’s forces and placed his son Henri at the head. If the reinforcements had been able to reach the Compassionists, Margaret Valois may have won the day. But, before the English fleet had even set sail, Charles Stuart was dead, and Louis Valois was King of France.”
    Professor Laura Anderson, “The Other Margaret”​

    [1] While France was the protestant country Navarre was, nor was France the bastion of religious tolerance that England was, France did allow protestants and awakeners to practice their religion. Though protestants and awakeners were not allowed to build churches and had to pay a tax among other infringements on their rights.

    “Marie Francoise, Duchess of Brittany, and her husband Francis Tudor were placed in a precarious place by the succession issues of France. For if daughters were now in the line of succession, Marie Francoise had a strong claim as daughter of Prince Francis Valois. Kathryn Tudor made it clear to the couple that she would love to support her cousin’s wife’s claim to France. King Henri III, the King of a country that shared a border with France, was more circumspect.

    Marie Francoise and Francis Tudor stalled for several months, prevaricating and hesitating. With Navarre and England, they might have a chance. They certainly would find support from the protestants currently living in France. [1] But, Louis XIII was backed by a majority of the French Nobles and the Habsburgs.

    In the end Marie Francoise and Francis Tudor would choose not to claim the Throne of France in return for Louis XIII unconditionally recognizing the autonomy and sovereignty of Brittany. [2] It was said that Francis Tudor remarked that France was not worth the trouble. This choice seems to have been heavily influenced by Marie of Portugal. Marie Francoise’s mother was a firm woman who believed strongly in being cautious.”
    Dr. Marella Howard, “Brittany”​

    [1] One of the first acts of Louis XIII was revoking the privileges granted to the protestants. Many were burned as heretics the first few months of his reign.
    [2] Brittany had existed in something of a limbo for the last few decades. While Brittany had been intended to be united with France it had never actually happened.

    “Amongst the larger than life Prince Henry, the commanding Kathryn Tudor, the charismatic King Henry III, Elizabeth Cromwell, and the many other celebrated Tudors, it can be easy to discount Marie Francoise and Francis Tudor. They didn’t win wars or flout convention, nor were they particularly well known in their own time, at least compared to their many many relatives.

    But, it’s perhaps their inconspicuousness that we should find conspicuous. They managed to wrest Brittany from France, keep peace with England and Navarre as they refused to seek the throne of France, all without garnering any particular ill-will. During their reign, war never touched Brittany’s land. They lived happily and peacefully in a time where war was commonplace. Also, they were hideously wealthy, Brittany having gained several beneficial trading agreements during their reign.

    But instead of the economical and pollical successes, all that Marie Francoise and Francis Tudor are known for are their lurid love letters. [1] This book seeks to fully capture the couple Marie Francoise and Francis Tudor. Yes, they were apparently ridiculously in love, but they were also successful rulers of Brittany.”
    Solomon Lee, “Marie Francoise and Francis Tudor”​

    [1] For those of you who don’t know, almost a century after the death of Marie Francoise, the love letters she and Prince Francis Tudor exchanged were found amongst her papers. The letters ranged from some beautiful original poetry to rather risqué sentiments.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  3. Threadmarks: Section Sixty-One - Mid 1560s

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    “The marriage of James VI, King of Scotland and Ireland, to Juana Trastamara, Infanta of Aragon, occurred shortly before the French Queen War—as it was called in Scotland—and it also served as an excuse to recall Elizabeth Hamilton, aunt of James VI, to Scotland from her banishment in Ireland.

    Elizabeth Hamilton would return with several ladies she had befriended in Ireland. One of which was Grainne O’Malley or, as history calls her, Grace O’Malley. Grace and the other Irish ladies would seek to represent Irish interests in the way the Irish lords had been not allowed to. Several of the Irish ladies would make prominent marriages, doing much to strengthen the relationship between Scotland and Ireland.

    But, Bossy Bess hadn’t brought Grace O’Malley to Scotland to marry a Scottish lord.”
    Walter Owens, “Bossy, Bossy Bess” ​

    “Queen Joan, as Juana Trastamara was known in Scotland and Ireland, would give birth within the year after the wedding to a daughter who was named Marjorie, the name Mary being all but banned. Several miscarriages and stillborn would follow until in fifteen sixty-seven, Queen Joan, would die giving birth to boy who would be named James.”
    Maximillian Green, “Scotland, the Isolation Years”​

    “The idea that Elizabeth Hamilton brought Grace O’Malley to Scotland specifically to seduce James Stewart has been floated again and again throughout history. But if Elizabeth Hamilton did bring Grace O’Malley to Scotland to seduce her nephew, she played a long game. We have no record of any relationship between Grace or James Stewart during Queen Joan’s life, though the affair does appear to have begun very quickly after her death.

    Grace O’Malley and James Stewart never did get married but they would have two children, Seamus and Maeve.”
    Aidan Robinson, “Seamus to James”​
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  4. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

    Feb 12, 2017
    Poor Juana. What is with spanish Juanas and sorrowful marriages?
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  5. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    The marriage itself wasn't to bad, it just ended early and her husband moved on pretty quickly. Which by the standards of the day wasn't to shabby.
  6. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

    Feb 12, 2017
    Oh, well that is a comfort then.
    Cate13 likes this.
  7. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    And if it makes you feel better, her granddaughter turns out to be pretty important
  8. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

    Feb 12, 2017

    Now where is Helena of Austria?
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  9. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    She is Queen Helene of France. She gets compared to Helen of Troy in beauty. One of the key figures in the old guard, the faction at court who want things to go back to the good old days, i.e. before Protestants, Awakeners, and the Tudors in general. The head of the other faction, which doesn't really have a point but to be problematic, is the other Queen of France, Marie Stuart. The two may have gotten into a cat fight or two.
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  10. Threadmarks: Section Sixty-Two - Late 1560s

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    “Charles Tudor, second oldest surviving son of Prince Henry Tudor, spent almost twenty-five years in Julich-Cleves-Berg from fifteen forty to fifty sixty-five: first as regent to his younger half-brother Johann Tudor and then simply as an advisor. He would only rarely return to Calais, having left the governing in the hands of his wife, Leonora Borgia. [1] Charles Tudor was particularly beloved by the people of Julich-Cleves-Berg. Records indicate that the Karl, the German version of Charles, became the number one name during this time period.”
    Lila Kelly, “Charles Tudor and Johann Tudor”​

    [1] Their second daughter, Eleanor Tudor, would be conceived upon one of the visits. She would not meet her father until age three at his next visit. This gives you a hint on just how often Charles Tudor was in Calais.

    “Prince Charles Tudor, son of Prince Henry Tudor and Catherine of Navarre, would oversee the marriage of Duke John to Marie Elizabeth, Princess of Saxony, [2] early in fifteen sixty. The couple would appear to have a congenial marriage; they would have thirteen children though only eight would live to adulthood.

    After the marriage, many thought Prince Charles would leave Julich-Cleves-Berg. And while Prince Charles would relinquish the regency, he would remain in Julich-Cleves-Berg as an advisor for almost four years.”
    A.E. Bell, “The German State”​

    [2] Since in this timeline OTL Johann Frederick I was born a girl, Jeanne Sophie, John Ernest second son of John, Elector of Saxony, is a much more important person. John Ernest would inherit all his father’s lands and the electoral dignity. He also lives longer than OTL and has three children, the eldest of whom is Marie Elisabeth.

    “In all probability, Charles Tudor was closer to John Tudor than he was to his two daughters. Charles Tudor would raise John Tudor from almost infancy. In comparison, Charles Tudor spent next to no time with his two daughters. It must have been extremely hard to leave Julich-Cleves-Berg and John Tudor to return to his own lands.

    On the journey from Julich-Cleves-Berg to Calais, Prince Charles Tudor, Duke of Calais, would sicken and die. It is believed that he was infected by contaminated food, cleanliness being extremely difficult on the road.”
    Lila Kelly, “Charles Tudor and Johann Tudor”​

    “The question on everybody’s mind after watching Regent is, ‘Is this a tragedy?’ Regent, referring to both Prince Charles as regent of Julich-Cleves-Berg and Leonora Borgia as regent of Calais, covers the marriage Prince Charles and Leonora Borgia. But, the movie spends very little time on the actual marriage. Instead, the movie primarily focuses on the almost completely separate lives of Leonora Borgia and Prince Charles. In fact, the two only get three scenes together.

    By far my favorite scene is the one where Prince Charles has returned unexpectedly, and Leonora Borgia wishes to know why he has returned, saying, ‘The secret to our marriage is distance, I would know why you have jeopardized it!’ The scene does an amazing job highlighting the intense gap between the two.

    And there couldn’t be two more different people. Prince Charles was a brusque straightforward penny pincher. Leonora Borgia was loud, a bit of a spend thrift, and devoted to the arts. They certainly weren’t happy together. This brings us back to the question, is this a tragedy? If the movie is about the relationship between Prince Charles and Leonora Borgia it most certainly is. The two never really understood each other nor even particularly cared for each other.

    But, if it this movie is about two people who just happened to be married to each other, I’d say this movie couldn’t possibly be a tragedy. While it’s true that Prince Charles and Leonora Borgia didn’t have a happy marriage, they both led happy lives. They each made their own families: Prince Charles with the brother he raised, Leonora Borgia with their daughters. Both lived tremendously successful lives, Calais continues to be center of arts and music that Leonora Borgia created, and Prince Charles left Julich-Cleves-Berg debt free and secure.

    It’s the dichotomy between the lives of Prince Charles and Leonora Borgia and their marriage, that leaves Regent bittersweet, a question without an answer.”
    Review by Hailey Lane, the definitive Tudor Reviewer​
  11. Threadmarks: Section Sixty-Three - 1564

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    “Mary Carey, head of Princess Margaret’s household, would die late in 1564. Queen Kathryn would take the opportunity to completely reorganize and transfer Princess Margaret’s household. The household would be moved to Iredale Palace. [1]

    Baroness Grace Borough, a childless widow, [2] would be appointed as head of Princess Margaret’s household. Over the next few months, various children would be sent to Iredale to be companions to three-year-old Princess Margaret: seven-year-old Lady Anne Boleyn, daughter of Duchess Charlotte Tudor and her husband Baron Thomas Boleyn; three-year-old Cecily Stafford, granddaughter of Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham; and four-year-old Beth Seymore, daughter of Sir Edward Seymore, were among the most influential.
    Professor Laura Anderson, “The Stewart Queen”​

    [1] Queen Kathryn disliked the travel time between London and Eltham Palace and had ordered the building of a Royal Residence closer to London. The origin of the name is unknown.
    [2] Daughter of Kathrine Parr and her first husband Sir Edward Burgh.

    “Marriage offers for Margaret Stewart, Princess of Wales, flooded into England from almost the moment of her birth. The most prominent was Charles Trastamara, second son of King Ferdinand III of Aragon. Particularly interesting was upon the death of Ferdinand Trastamara, eldest son of King Ferdinand III, the marriage offer was not rescinded.

    But, the marriage offer was never seriously considered by Queen Kathryn Tudor.”
    Carolyn Masey “Ferdinand III the Old Didn’t Start That Way”​

    “It appears that Kathryn Tudor took it rather personally that her daughter was a Stewart not a Tudor. It is most likely for this reason that only Tudors were considered as husbands for Margaret of Wales. The top contenders were Jean Francis Tudor, son of Prince Francis and Marie Francoise of Brittany, and John Tudor, son of Duke Johann Tudor and Marie Elisabeth. Both boys were several years younger than Margaret of Wales and several steps from inheriting anything of real import.

    It appears that Kathryn Tudor wanted a match that would leave her grandchildren Tudors and giver her daughter a husband who wouldn’t challenge her as a Queen.”
    Tammie Waltherson, “For the Tudors’ It’s All About Family”​
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
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  12. JuliantheUnknown Unknown Member

    Jun 11, 2016
    Shouldn't it be Margaret Stewart, Princess of Wales since you make a big deal of the fact that Kathryn resents that she isn't a Tudor. Though I also wonder if marrying her back into the Tudor line is a way to get the Tudors in charge of Scotland if something happens to Alexander's older brother and his descendants.

    Small typo.
    Cate13 likes this.
  13. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    Yep, thanks for catching that. Margaret of Wales is a Stewart, something that really annoys Kathryn Tudor.

    Again, thanks for catching that.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
  14. Threadmarks: Section Sixty-Four - 1560s

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    “Thomas Tudor, one of Queen Kathryn’s many Toms, was what we would call an Odd Duck. Growing up he was one of Prince Henry’s quieter children, so pretty much everyone was shocked when, at age nineteen, he announced that he wasn’t an Awakener, nor was he a Lutheran, Puritan, or Catholic, thank you very much.

    He would still identify as a Christian, something Prince Henry Tudor would undoubtedly be grateful for, who knows what Prince Henry would have done with an atheist for a child, but Thomas Tudor would never align himself with an organized religion.

    A prolific writer, Thomas Tudor would write scores of treatises on the various religions found in England at that time, praising certain points of doctrine and critiquing others. For the time period it was all very shocking.”
    Matheo Henrikson, “The 1500’s Was A Crazy Century, and It Was Mostly the Tudors’ Fault”​

    “Thomas Tudor would remain apart from the many religions found in England at the time throughout his life. This would prove to be a boon to both Queen Kathryn and Queen Margaret; he was often consulted on religious matters since he offered an impartial position. It was probably for this reason that Thomas Tudor was appointed Archbishop of Canterbury at age twenty-six. An able administrator and diplomat, Thomas Tudor would serve the English crown the rest of his life. “
    Thomas Nelson, “Kathryn Tudor and the Golden Era”​

    “In all likelihood, Archbishop Thomas Tudor would inherit Prince Henry’s mental disorder. [1] The two would share the cycle of depression and almost manic energy that plagued Prince Henry throughout his life. Due to Prince Henry’s forthrightness and tendancy to overshare, Archbishop Thomas would find Europe in the late fifteen hundreds more conducive to mental health and would have a much more stable life than his father.”
    “Mental Health in Europe” Thesis Project by doctoral candidate William Matteson ​

    [1] Prince Henry’s diagnosis has been debated ad infinitum: bipolar disorder, cyclothymic disorder, or some sort of post-traumatic stress disorder have been postulated to name a few. As this article address the public treatment of mental health in the 1500s, Prince Henry’s diagnosis will be sidestepped.
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  15. RobinP Member

    Jan 2, 2019
    Can I say, I love this title? It's hilarious!
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  16. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    I'm glad you like it. It's one of my favorite titles too
  17. Threadmarks: Section Sixty-Five - 1568

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    “One of the many Tudor family dramas was the marriage of Cecily Tudor to Edward Stafford, 5th Duke of Buckingham. Young Edward Stafford was the second son of Henry Stafford, 4th Duke of Stafford, and as such wasn’t particularly important in the grand scheme of things. His elder brother, Alexander Stafford, was married with a child on the way. But, when Lord Stafford died in a riding accident and Lady Stafford would miscarry, Edward Stafford would go from mildly interesting to the inheritor of one of the most important titles in England.

    We have several records that indicate that Edward Stafford was sweet on Madelyn Tudor, Cecily’s younger sister, the two having met at a few smaller family affaires. But, with young Edward’s quick ascension, he drew the attention of the elder, more sophisticated sister. He didn’t have a chance.

    Then, when the Duke his father passed away, the new Duke of Buckingham would choose Cecily Tudor as his bride.”
    Harper Wayne, “Keeping Up with The Tudors, Your Guide to Who’s Who”​

    “Interviewer: So, what makes Sisters and Suitors than any other teen movie? It’s certainly got the romantic triangle.

    Anya Taylor-Joy: Well I think the big thing is for Cecily it isn’t a romantic triangle. It simply business. She really doesn’t understand why Madelyn is taking it so hard.

    Interviewer: Cecily Tudor really is a cold fish then?

    Anya Taylor-Joy: I wouldn’t say that. She cares for Madelyn and even Edward in her own way, she just doesn’t see why it’s a big deal. She would obviously make the better duchess and that all she sees.

    Interviewer: What’s it like working with Millie [Bobby Brown] and Thomas [Brodie Sangster]?

    Anya Taylor-Joy: They are both really quite wonderful. There’s this one scene with the three of us where….”
    Interview with Anya Taylor-Joy about Sisters and Suitors(2018)​
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
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  18. Threadmarks: Section Sixty-Six - late 1560s

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    “The marriage of Henri and Christina would change tone late in the fifteen sixties. The two, after over twenty years of marriage, would run out of steam. No longer would they discomfort the nobles of Navarre with their excessive displays of affection or their explosive arguments. Instead Henri and Christina were almost civil and decorous.

    Far from lessoning the strain on Prince Christian, his parents’ new dynamic appears to have amplified the pressure he felt. During this period, the adolescent prince was known to begin to cry or sometimes hyperventilate several times a day.”
    Ephraim Pollock, “Henry and Christina, They May Have Tried to Kill Each Other” ​

    “The old adage, ‘the opposite of love isn’t hate but apathy,’ is most clearly demonstrated in the marriage of Henri Tudor and Christina Oldenburg. Their marriage would recover from the horrific arguments but not the complete lack of care. The last few years of their marriage would full off stilted conversations in public, and as near as anyone can tell, nothing else.”
    Ethan Davidson, “Henry IV, the People’s King” ​

    “The late fifteen sixties are the clearest example of King Henri III competence and aptitude toward ruling. Still in morning from the death of his beloved wife, King Henri would adroitly manage the growing political unrest, the changing association with France [1], and his own family issues.

    The aging king had ruled Navarre for the past fifty years, and would…”
    Patrick Wendal, “The First Navarrese Tudor King” ​

    [1] King Louis XIII, the new King of France, would not hold to the religious moderation that his predecessors had and this caused significant tensions with Navarre.
  19. Threadmarks: Section Sixty-Seven - late 1560s

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2016
    “France’s ‘Two Queen Period,’ named for the presence of both Queen Helene and Queen Marie, is one of the more interesting periods in French History. The two queens would push competing agendas, with King Louis XIII often serving as a simple pawn or piece in their schemes, the entirety of King Louis’s reign. [1]

    Queen Helene, Queen of France, would head the Traditionalist Party committed to returning France to the ‘good old days.’ A significant focus would be eradicating the presence of Awakeners and Protestants in France. The party would mostly be composed of the higher-ranking members of the nobility and the Catholic clergy.

    Queen Marie, Maîtresse-En-Titre, was something of a figured head for the opposing unnamed party, mostly, it appears, due to the desire to spite Queen Helene. She would not inconvenience herself often with the politics of France, preferring to participate in parties, hunts, and other diversions. When she did act, she would do so with a directness that only worked due to her support from the King.”
    Hannah Everett, “Helen and Marie, Queens of France”​

    [1] Both women would find their influence sharply checked at the beginning of King Francis’s reign.

    “Louise Stuart, daughter of King Louis and Marie Stuart, would be born early in fifteen sixty-three. She would predecessor her younger half-sister by two years. During the first two years of her life, she would be feted and couched almost as a princess. This would change at the birth of Marie Louise Valois, daughter of King Louis and Queen Helene. Never again would she hold the favor and attention of her father.

    The pattern would continue at the birth of Francis Valois, son of King Louis and Queen Helene. At the birth of the Dauphin, Princess Marie Louise would lose her father’s attention, just as Marie Stuart had two years before.

    And parental inattention was not unique to King Louis. Both Queen Helene and Queen Marie ceased maternal attentiveness as soon as the child was no longer useful in their struggle for dominance.

    This left the five children of King Louis to form many of their own connections and opinions free from their parent’s influence. All three, King Louis, Queen Helene, and Queen Marie, would come to regret that later in their lives.”
    Nancy Raymond, “The Unloved”

    AN - the next couple posts will be the 1570 Tudor Family Tree. I'll have to split it up since there are so many decedents. If anyone has any questions about anything from the tree just ask. I wasn't able to cover everything that's changed from 1560 to 1570.
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
  20. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

    Feb 12, 2017
    I don't understand how there are two queens of France at the same time....?
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