English Canada/French Carolina: A Timeline

[isabella]

View attachment 453581
Here's my idea for what becomes of Italy:

• Sardinia-Piedmont evolves into a North Italian state (called something like Padania or just Italy, I'll just call it North Italy for now). The capital is likely Turin, although Florence could potentially become the capital at some point. North Italy is likely influenced by France, will certainly industrialize, and is probably the strongest of the Italian states.
• The Kingdom of Naples covers Southern Italy, and is the main rival to North Italy. The capital is Naples (duh), and is influenced by Spain. South Italy may or may not industrialize, and may or may not be as corrupt as OTL's Southern Italy.
• The Papal States loses territory over time, and is reduced to just the area around Rome.
• Lombardy-Veneto is under Austrian influence.
• Corsica is still part of France ITTL (although it's possible that they'd trade Corsica for North Italy's territory on the French side of the Alps, making it OTL's France-Italy border).

How does this look? Leave your feedback.

At least the whole Lazio (without the southern part who was originally part of the Kingdom of Naples) need to stay as Papal States...
The Kingdom of Naples (in personal union with the Kingdom of Sicily) will surely industrialize (but at a slower rate than other countries as the crown is unlikely to see a forced and fast industrialization as a good thing), will not reach the OTL level of corruption or burocracy and will most likely be we’ll know for the high quality of his luxury productions (specially paper, silk and gloves) and will have a very strong commercial navy...

Sardinia-Piedmont can not evolve in a Kingdom of Italy without taking away Lombardy-Veneto from Austria (as that state need to include North Italy, Tuscany and Emilia with likely later additions of Romagna, Umbria and Marche from the Papal States), plus we have the problem of Venice (who is pretty unlikely to fall under Austrian control without Napoleon) they will be surely industrialized and while Turin will be the first capital I see it supplanted by Florence or more likely Milan with the time...
I think more likely at this point who for some reason at some point Austria will give control of the Duchy of Milan to the Granduke of Tuscany (maybe Franz II die without any son and the Teschen branch inhereited the Imperial Crown and gave Milan to Tuscany as compensation for the renounce to everything else? Maybe at the same time Hungary will get indipendence with the Palatine of Hungary as King and the HRE will become a Empire of Germany led by Austria?) and Tuscany start a confederation with other states who in short time will become a Kingdom of Italy (with capital first in Florence then on Milan) in style of the OTL Empire of Germany....
Under any scenario Corsica, Nizza and Savoy can be divided in any way between Italy and France (while is pretty unlikely seeing Malta under anyone who is not the Knights or the Kingdom of Sicily without the Napoleonic wars)...

This young chap here is Louis-Charles de Bourbon, who was the son of Louis XVI. IOTL, he died in 1795, two years after his father was executed in the French Revolution (he had an older brother, but he died of an illness just before the French Revolution broke out). However, ITTL, the French Revolution doesn't happen, so both his father and him live on. Louis XVI was 38 when he died, so I'd give him another 30 years or so, considering that he was a king, but before modern medicine, which means he dies sometime in the Early-Mid 1820s. I'd assume that Louis-Charles (or Louis XVII once he became king) would marry young, as Louis XXI married Marie Antoinette at 16, which since Louis-Charles was born in 1785, would mean he'd marry sometime between 1800 and 1805. Now, I have absolutely ZERO knowledge on European dynastic politics at the Turn of the 19th Century, so I'll have to rely on you guys for who Louis-Charles might marry.
The whole point of this ramble is, any ideas for who Louis-Charles/Louis XVII marries, and how can I deal with the MASSIVE butterflies of Louis XVI's bloodline continuing?

If Ferdinand IV of Naples has married Maria Carolina of Austria as OTL the most likely bride for Louis XVII is one of his cousin from Naples
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Maria_Antonia_of_Naples_and_Sicily is the most likely but https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Amalia_of_Naples_and_Sicily (who likely was the one in consideration for Louis Joseph) or a surviving https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Clotilde_of_Naples_and_Sicily or https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Henrietta_of_Naples_and_Sicily work perfectly well. For Madame Royale I will put a match with the OTL King Louis Philip of Orléans as most likely match, followed by one with her cousin Francis I of Naples (if her parents decided for a foreign match) and her OTL match with her cousin Angoulême at the third place (as Marie Antoinette wanted marrying her daughter close and if an Orléans match failed Angoulême is the next best option)

 

[Gabingston]

If Ferdinand IV of Naples has married Maria Carolina of Austria as OTL the most likely bride for Louis XVII is one of his cousin from Naples
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Maria_Antonia_of_Naples_and_Sicily is the most likely but https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Amalia_of_Naples_and_Sicily (who likely was the one in consideration for Louis Joseph) or a surviving https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Clotilde_of_Naples_and_Sicily or https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Henrietta_of_Naples_and_Sicily work perfectly well. For Madame Royale I will put a match with the OTL King Louis Philip of Orléans as most likely match, followed by one with her cousin Francis I of Naples (if her parents decided for a foreign match) and her OTL match with her cousin Angoulême at the third place (as Marie Antoinette wanted marrying her daughter close and if an Orléans match failed Angoulême is the next best option)

Wait, marrying his cousin?

 

[isabella]

Wait, marrying his cousin?

Not my fault if that were the standards of the time. Plus count politics, religion and how many children had Maria Theresa the only matches prestigious enough for the Dauphin who do not include a first cousin are with a second cousin from Spain or Portugal (and the displeasure of Marie Antoniette who wanted a daughter of her most beloved sister as daughter-in-law)

 

[Gabingston]

Not my fault if that were the standards of the time. Plus count politics, religion and how many children had Maria Theresa the only matches prestigious enough for the Dauphin who do not include a first cousin are with a second cousin from Spain or Portugal (and the displeasure of Marie Antoniette who wanted a daughter of her most beloved sister as daughter-in-law)

I know that royal inbreeding was very common at the time, but come on, shouldn't they have learned that inbreeding wasn't a good idea after seeing Charles II of Spain's big-ass jaw? Couldn't they have drawn some connection between inbreeding and poor health, even before the advent of modern genetics?

 

[pompejus]

I know that royal inbreeding was very common at the time, but come on, shouldn't they have learned that inbreeding wasn't a good idea after seeing Charles II of Spain's big-ass jaw? Couldn't they have drawn some connection between inbreeding and poor health, even before the advent of modern genetics?

Marrying your cousin does not cause inbreeding. A cousin is far enough removed to avoid any genetic problem. And it happened a lot in the past, without causing any serious problems. The problem with the Hapsburgs (and other royal lines) was marrying cousin after cousin after cousin. That does cause problems. The cousin marrying taboo is a relatively recent development without any scientific foundation.

 

[isabella]

I know that royal inbreeding was very common at the time, but come on, shouldn't they have learned that inbreeding wasn't a good idea after seeing Charles II of Spain's big-ass jaw? Couldn't they have drawn some connection between inbreeding and poor health, even before the advent of modern genetics?

Well politics... And no they had not learned anything...

Madame Royale OTL married a paternal first cousin, the Dauphin Louis Joseph would have likely married Maria Amelia of Naples,
Naples: the eldest son and two daughters of Ferdinand and Maria Carolina of Naples married their Austrian double first cousin (children of Leopold and Maria Luisa of Spain, who was Ferdinand’s sister) and another daughter married a paternal first cousin while her brother remarried to a paternal first cousin and the younger brother married a niece.
Spain: the King has married his first cousin and their children: the eldest daughter married a paternal first cousin in Portugal, the second married a paternal uncle, the third married a maternal first cousin and the last a paternal first cousin while the elder boy married a first cousin, two nieces and a first cousin once removed, the second married two nieces and the third married another niece.

Marrying your cousin does not cause inbreeding. A cousin is far enough removed to avoid any genetic problem. And it happened a lot in the past, without causing any serious problems. The problem with the Hapsburgs (and other royal lines) was marrying cousin after cousin after cousin. That does cause problems. The cousin marrying taboo is a relatively recent development without any scientific foundation.

The problem was also marrying nieces and double first cousins in abundance but while the Habsburgs were the most famous for it, the Aviz, Trastamaras, Habsburg-Lorraine, Bourbons and Braganzas were in no way better

 

[Gabingston]

Marrying your cousin does not cause inbreeding. A cousin is far enough removed to avoid any genetic problem. And it happened a lot in the past, without causing any serious problems. The problem with the Hapsburgs (and other royal lines) was marrying cousin after cousin after cousin. That does cause problems. The cousin marrying taboo is a relatively recent development without any scientific foundation.

It's not that bad when it happens once, but if you're only screwing with your first and second cousins for hundreds of years...

It'll turn out like this.

 

[Odinson]

It's not that bad when it happens once, but if you're only screwing with your first and second cousins for hundreds of years...
View attachment 454891

It'll turn out like this.

West Virginia...

 

[Gabingston]

West Virginia...

Mountain mama...

 

[Odinson]

Mountain mama...

Country roads...

 

[pompejus]

View attachment 454891

Almost heaven?

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Is there a map of Europe? Or the world?

 

[Gabingston]

This is a map of the distribution of Aedes Aegypti, a mosquito that carries Dengue, Yellow Fever and Zika among other Tropical diseases. This could also be called the "where can White People live map", as Europe is mostly devoid of these diseases. All of OTL Florida, Southern Louisiana and East Texas have a high concentration of this mosquito, meaning their White populations are going to be smaller. Areas in yellow such as the interior south and Atlantic Coast still have this mosquito, but in lower quantities than further south, so there will be larger White populations, while Appalachia and some of the drier areas further west don't have Aedes Aegypti, meaning that these will be the healthiest areas for European settlers in La Floride

 

[mrcubfan415]

Just started reading this thread. I've only read the first page so far, but it's certainly an interesting scenario. Consider me subscribed.

 

[Gabingston]

Just started reading this thread. I've only read the first page so far, but it's certainly an interesting scenario. Consider me subscribed.

Glad that you like it!

 

[Gabingston]

Part 24: A New King, A New Colony​

On March 27th, 1785, Louis-Charles de France was born. The second son of King Louis XVI of France and Marie Antoinette, his older brother Louis Joseph passed away of an illness in 1789 (just before OTL’s French Revolution), thus raising Louis-Charles to Dauphin (heir). To skip pretty much the entire 1790s, it was figured by the turn of the 19th Century that Louis-Charles was ready for marriage. Now, from our OTL 21st Century perspective, it seems like a TERRIBLE idea to marry (or rather get married off) to your first cousin, but alas, in May of 1802, Louis-Charles married his first cousin Marie Amalie of Naples. Old habits die hard, and royal inbreeding is no exception. Nonetheless, after a miscarriage the first time, their daughter Marie Josephine was born on August 8th, 1807. However, what they still needed was a son, who would be the heir to the French throne once Louis XVI passed away. After their second child, born on January 21st, 1809 turned out to also be a girl (who was named Thérѐse), they were still in need of an heir. As it turns out, the third time was indeed the charm, as their third child was indeed a male. Born on October 4th, 1810, Louis-Joseph de France became the third in line to the French throne. Two more surviving children were born, Jean-Pierre in 1813 and Élizabeth in 1816, as well as two children who didn’t survive, Denis in 1814 and Marie-Anne in 1818.

Now, to skip a few more years, we come to the big moment. On the 18th of October of the Year of our Lord 1824, Louis XVI of France passed away of Pneumonia at the age of 70. After the funeral and burial a week later at the Basilica of Saint-Denis, the coronation of King Louis XVII was held at the Notre Dame de Reims on November 1st, 1824, All Saints Day.

Now, being King Louis XVII, he had his father’s quite large shoes to fill. His father had instituted many reforms to the government, conducted voyages of exploration and kept France from potential revolution in the tough times of the Late 1780s, so how could the new King follow that up?

By the Early 19th Century, naval technology and tactics were advanced enough as to allow voyages to the other side of the world. Voyages to the Land Down Under had been conducted at the turn of the century, charting the Southern Coast of Terra Australis. The new king figured, since his father had explored Terra Australis, that he should continue his father’s work and colonize it. The East Coast was already being colonized by the British, the West Coast was in the early stages of Dutch colonization, and the North Coast was a desolate wasteland.

That left the South Coast of Terra Australis as the prospective location of a French colony. While it was known that most of the South Coast was a desert wasteland, the area around the mouth of a river was known to be quite hospitable. The areas further east along the coast were already being colonized by the Brits, so that left the areas around the Antoinette Gulf and the Gulf Saint-Vincent as the prime area for a French colony. Another expedition was conducted between 1825-1827, specifically to find good locations for settlement before the British or Dutch could get their hands on it. Several potential settlement locations were proposed from the expedition, with an official settlement being approved by Louis XVII.

Thus, on November 4th of 1828, a fleet of over 300 settlers departed from the port of La Rochelle, just as the first fleet to La Floride had nearly 200 years prior, destined for the south seas. After a brief stop for supplies and fresh air in Brazil, the expedition rounded the Cape of Good Hope in January and caught wind of the westerlies. Finally, on April 6th, 1829, after over five months at sea, the settlers landed at the mouth of a river they called the Crique des Palétuviers (Mangrove Creek), on a small sandy peninsula. This was a suitable location for a port, but not for the primary settlement, so the settlers stayed there temporarily while surveyors searched for greener pastures. Eventually, a location on higher ground was discovered, and the main settlement was built there. The port acquired the name of Louisport, as why not name it after the king, while the settlement itself got the name of Tadagne, which was from the Aboriginal name for the area. Settlers were sent to work clearing the land, defending the settlement and surveying the area. Over the following few years, more parties of settlers arrived in the colony, founding their own colonies along the coastal plain. Settlers didn’t exclusively come from France, as settlers from the Queen’s homeland of the Kingdom of Naples were recruited as well, the most notable Neapolitan settlement being Nouvelle-Salerne 20 kilometers southwest of Tadagne. Some other settlements established along the eastern shore of the St. Vincent Gulf included Nurlongue, Pataouille and Petit-Fourches.

Pretty much the first thing the initial settlers did was clear out the scrubland and plant crops. While crops like wheat and barley grew well in the new colony, the real standout were grapes. Unlike in La Floride, where the climate was unsuitable for European grapes to grow (there were native grapes in La Floride, but the French preferred their own grape varieties), traditional French and Italian grapes thrived in the Mediterranean climate of the colony, which acquired the name of Terre-Bourbon. Aside from the occasional heat wave from the desert to the north, this was perfect wine country, and while the British and Dutch had already been producing wine in their colonies, it was the French who really pioneered the Terra Australis wine industry. Livestock were introduced to the colony as well, with many less fertile crop areas grazing cattle and sheep instead. By 1840, there were 9,000 Europeans in Terre-Bourbon, of which 75% were French, 15% Neapolitan and 10% other. While most French emigres chose to go the La Floride, a small but not insignificant chunk were convinced to try their luck in the Land Down Under, where women glow and men chunder. Can you hear the thunder, you better run and you better take cover...

 

[Gabingston]

Questions for this TL:

• Without the secular ideas of the French Revolution, would the Western world be more religious and/or socially conservative ITTL?
• What of pop culture? Most American music has it's roots in African American communities in the South (as well as Celtic folk music), and since African-Americans are limited to the Chesapeake Bay area ITTL, this could lead to a vastly different musical landscape (no blues, rock n' roll, R&B, country, jazz, pop, hip hop etc.) in the Anglosphere. Of course, we could see something similar develop in the Black population of La Floride after slavery is abolished (likely in the Late 19th Century).
• What units of measurement do different countries use? The Metric System was spread across Europe by the French Revolution, and since that doesn't happen, might we see different units develop across Europe?
• Another effect of the French Revolution is the spread of right-hand driving across Europe. Before that, most places rode on the left, so that you could take out your sword with your right hand. However, the French switched to right-hand driving in order to further distance themselves from the Ancien Régime. Meanwhile, right-hand driving in America came because farmers would sit on the left horse in order to whip their center horse carrying their wagons when going to town to sell goods. However, many places in America rode on the left up until the time of the automobile, when right-hand driving was standardized in America, so it could go either way.

What do you think?

 

[connorCD]

Questions for this TL:

• Without the secular ideas of the French Revolution, would the Western world be more religious and/or socially conservative ITTL?
• What of pop culture? Most American music has it's roots in African American communities in the South (as well as Celtic folk music), and since African-Americans are limited to the Chesapeake Bay area ITTL, this could lead to a vastly different musical landscape (no blues, rock n' roll, R&B, country, jazz, pop, hip hop etc.) in the Anglosphere. Of course, we could see something similar develop in the Black population of La Floride after slavery is abolished (likely in the Late 19th Century).
• What units of measurement do different countries use? The Metric System was spread across Europe by the French Revolution, and since that doesn't happen, might we see different units develop across Europe?
• Another effect of the French Revolution is the spread of right-hand driving across Europe. Before that, most places rode on the left, so that you could take out your sword with your right hand. However, the French switched to right-hand driving in order to further distance themselves from the Ancien Régime. Meanwhile, right-hand driving in America came because farmers would sit on the left horse in order to whip their center horse carrying their wagons when going to town to sell goods. However, many places in America rode on the left up until the time of the automobile, when right-hand driving was standardized in America, so it could go either way.

What do you think?

1. I believe that secularism could still rise in certain parts of the Western world, but conservatism would still reign for a much longer period OTL. Perhaps even to the present day.

2. It is possible for American music to have more influence from Britain and Europe, as well as maybe even Native music as well. Most if not all of Black-related music likes jazz or blues would likely be butterflied, but I don't see why similar genres wouldn't replace them.

3. Perhaps different units of measurement would take form, but a universal measurement system isn't entirely out of the question.

4. Left driving would most likely remain the norm for the Western world, but that doesn't mean all countries would use it.

 

[Gabingston]

@connorCD
Not to be redundant, but I'm gonna give my thoughts on my own questions.

I think something similar to Bluegrass or Country could still exist, as those have mostly Gaelic influences. The guitar was already a common instrument in America by the 19th Century, so I could see some
sort of Guitar-based music becoming popular (likely with pianos and violins as other instruments), just with less African influence.

When it comes to Religion in the west, it's not going to be some sort of theocracy, with the exception of the Papal State. However, Christianity will have a much larger influence in the 21st Century West ITTL, especially in somewhere like France, as the French laicité came from the revolution. Maybe it'll be something like OTL Poland where Christianity still plays a rather large influence in the national culture.

I could see Metric spreading throughout French-influenced Spain (which was in decline by the 19th Century and would likely be propped up by their stronger neighbors across the Pyrenees) and Italy (at least Southern Italy, which will be a French ally, Northern Italy will be contested between France and Austria).

I agree 100% on left-hand driving.

 

[connorCD]

@connorCD
Not to be redundant, but I'm gonna give my thoughts on my own questions.

I think something similar to Bluegrass or Country could still exist, as those have mostly Gaelic influences. The guitar was already a common instrument in America by the 19th Century, so I could see some
sort of Guitar-based music becoming popular (likely with pianos and violins as other instruments), just with less African influence.

When it comes to Religion in the west, it's not going to be some sort of theocracy, with the exception of the Papal State. However, Christianity will have a much larger influence in the 21st Century West ITTL, especially in somewhere like France, as the French laicité came from the revolution. Maybe it'll be something like OTL Poland where Christianity still plays a rather large influence in the national culture.

I could see Metric spreading throughout French-influenced Spain (which was in decline by the 19th Century and would likely be propped up by their stronger neighbors across the Pyrenees) and Italy (at least Southern Italy, which will be a French ally, Northern Italy will be contested between France and Austria).

I agree 100% on left-hand driving.

Yeah I can see guitar music still becoming popular, but again some genres would likely either change or be butterflied altogether.

My point about conservatism was basically similar to what you mentioned. I never stated anything about Europe become a theocratic continent.