It would probably be simpler and cheaper just to have Vickers or whoever build spare guns and barrel liners for the twins. You'll need to manufacture ammunition as well. It will take time and money to set up but the ships are worth it.
I wonder how long that would have taken them to do? Assuming the Dutch manage to get plans, manuals, and detailed drawings of the guns out of the Netherlands before the Germans arrive that is.
Driftless
Donor
How difficult would it have been for the British to match the profile for the main battery propellants of the S & G? By that I mean getting similar and predictable performance from the bagged powders, so that the shot falls are comparable to the original German loads. It would be difficult enough for RN Gunners to get through the learning curve where precision is required, just with the original propellant and shells
The ships should have blueprints on board so the crew can make repairs.
Shells are not really the problem, while they are complicated in and of themselves they are not so difficult to get right by anyone with experience making large caliber shells that you could not get something going fairly quickly if you needed to.
Driftless
Donor
Agreed. As long as the new production shells are similar mass and aerodynamic shape, that part of the equation shouldn't be the problem. The wildcard would be how the new bagged propellant launches those shells. I know the US encountered problems just with propellant deterioration at unexpected rates in different climates, which in turn affected shooting performance.
A continuation.
(Sorry for more than 3 images mods)
Capital Ships of the Marine Royale:
Marine Royale is the name of the French Royal Navy, however this text is not on the sail Ships of the Line of that distinguished service of the Ancien Regime. Nor is it on the Imperial Navy of the Bonapartes or on the Republic's Marine Nationale, despite the French Naval service never losing the nickname of "la Royale" trough it's long history. This text is on the Battleships, Battlecruisers and Aircraft Carriers of the "Marine Royale" of the Actionist French State.
The First World War had ended in an Allied victory and an Entente defeat. For Britain this did not mean much at the moment. The war had ended with Britain in control of all Allied colonial possessions and with British troops outside Rome. Northwestern India being occupied by Russian forces and the losses suffered so far were the only current negative effects. This meant that Britain got off light. Indeed it could pretend to be the victor, with only Oman, Cyprus and Egypt (other than Suez) being lost and much of the German and half of the Italian colonial empire gained as well as Belgian Katanga. But of course, this did not prevent the Springtime Revolution, caused by the great loss of life in the war and continued social inequalities which would lead to the formation of the Union of Britannic Syndicalist Commonwealths. For France however things were far worse. 1916 had seen French troops in Lorraine be encircled and Paris be occupied by Germans despite France occupying Genoa and Milan in the Italian Front. Oh Paris would soon be retaken and the Lorraine pocket relieved, but the Allies would also push the Entente back in Italy. Worse, with Hungary having been defeated and signing separate peace with the Allies Russian and Balkan troops could be sent to the Italian and Flemish Fronts. Later in 1917 while British and ANZAC troops were marching north from the tip of Italy French army as well as BEF and the Canadians could no longer hang on as Russo-German and Russo-Italian troops broke trough Entente lines. Allied troops were on the Atlantic and the Spanish border by the end of the year. France could resist no more as remnants of the army started mutinied. Recognizing the situation Marshal Joffre and Generals Foch and Petain convinced President Poincaré, and Prime Minister Clemenceau to suspend the constitution and agree to ceasefire with the Allies. After peace was finally signed France was hit hard, losing Corsica, Nice, French Guiana and a number of African colonies along with eastern parts of France being occupied until the end of 1918. Furthermore French military was heavily limited with only 8 pre-dreadnoughts (of Liberte and Danton classes) being allowed as capital ships. The Normandie class battleships were interned in Heligoland before being scuttled by their crews while the Lyon class battleships had been cancelled during the war. As for the Courbet and Bretagne class dreadnoughts, they were gained as prizes of war by Germany, Russia and Italy. A Presidential 4th Republic was established with Clemenceau being elected it's first president.
Danton class battleship Vergniaud (from wikipedia)
Pre-dreadnoughts:
All the ships had served in the First World War, mostly in the Mediterrenean against the Italians.
When Charles Maurras was elected president in 1924 the Marine Nationale possessed 8 pre-dreadnought battleships. Democratié, Justice, Verité, Concordet, Diderot, Mirabeau, Voltaire and Vergniaud. All were still in service when the French State was declared in 1926 and Maurras became the Regent. Of these Democratié, Justice, Verité, Concordet and Mirabeau were scrapped in the early 30s. Diderot was retired early and scrapped during the Second World War. Voltaire and Vergniaud remained in service and saw limited duty in the Spanish Civil War and WW2. With Verginaud firing the first shots of the war, bombing the Italian coast. Verginaud was sunk in shallow water by Regia Aeronautica and Imperial Russian Air Force, thought later a fire would permanently disable the ship. Voltaire would hit a mine and sink in 1944, with French Mediterrenean coast being fully occupied by the Allies not much later.
Marine Royale Battlecruiser France (Ultimate Admiral: Dreadnoughts game, I made the ship)
France class battlecruisers were the first modern capital ships of the French Navy. The nameship France was laid down in 1929 and completed in 1933, her sisters were Patrie and Soleil-Royale. The ships were armed with 8 330mm guns, in two quad turrets all forward. With a secondary armament of 6 twin 100mm guns. They were protected by a belt of 200mm and a deck of 115mm. They displaced at roughly 22000 tons. Their designed/trial speed was 35 knots, thought for most of their service they could do 32 knots at most. These ships formed the core of the Force de Raid stationed in Brest. Soleil-Royale was performing as a raider in the South Atlantic early in the war where she was sunk by the German battlecruiser SMS Togoland in the Battle off the Cape. Patrie was the most successful of the major French raiders. She was temporarily moved to the Baltic but was withdrawn after some unsuccessful skirmishes with German and Russian Fleets. Patrie was sunk by Luftstreitkräfte bombers in 1944. France was attacked by Republican bombers in the Spanish Civil War. She was frequently damaged during the war by German submarine and aerial assets, as well as by Russian battlecruisers in the Battle of the Sea of Norway. Towards the end of the war France was used as a gun battery against the German and Russian advance. She was gained as a war prize by the UBSC and sunk in weapon tests in 1947.
Marine Royale battleship Verdun (OTL image of Strasbourg, from Wikipedia)
Dunkerque class battleships had the same main armament as the Frances, a stronger secondary battery, slightly better protection and they displaced far more. They were able to make 30 knots. Their smaller size, less armour and focus on high speed leads to some people referring to them as battlecruisers. The ships were laid down in 1935 and completed shortly before the start of the 2nd World War. They supported the French invasion of Corsica and Sardegna and later Sicily. They participated in the sinking of the old Italian battleship RN Dante Alighieri and German battlecruiser SMS Hindenburg. as well as sinking the German carrier SMS Forseti. Dunkerque was sunk in the Battle of the Thyrennian Sea in 1943 by combined Italian, Ottoman and Russian naval forces. Her sister Verdun was sunk as a blockship in 1944, soon after UBSC troop landings in Europe/France.
Marine Royale battleship Richelieu (from Wikipedia)
Richelieu class were fast battleships built for Actionist France's Marine Royale shortly before WW2. The ships were the largest and most powerful warships built for the Marine Royale. The Richelieus were based on the preceding Dunkerque class, but scaled up to accommodate more powerful 380 mm guns and armor to protect them from guns of the same caliber. They were able to make 32 knots. Richelieu gained infamy by sinking the battlecruiser SMS Kamerun in the battle of Heligoland Bight. Thought she was soon afterward heavily damaged via German aircraft and multiple battleships and battlecruisers of the High Seas Fleet and scuttled. Her sistership Jean Bart was completed later and did not see much action, spending much of the war in Dakar. She was sunk mid-Atlantic by Russian carriers and fast battleships in 1944.
A planned successor for the Richelieu class was the Alsace class, which would have added one more main gun turret on the Richelieus. A ship was laid down in late 1938 but was cancelled and scrapped as WW2 started next year.
Italian Italia class fast battleship RN Africa was captured while under construction and renamed Duc de Guise. She would be scuttled in 1943 as Allied armies were liberating Italy. She was later raised and scrapped.
First ship of the Joffre class aircraft carriers was laid down in 1936. She was near completed but would never enter service. She was gained as a prize of war by the Germans and sunk as target in 1947. Her sister ship Foch was cancelled and scrapped in 1940.
Last two ships of the Algerie class heavy cruisers Madagascar and Congo were to be converted into light aircraft carriers to be named Roques and Guynemer. Four more ships of the same light carrier design were laid down as purpose built carriers, to be named Nungesser, Deullin, Pégoud and Blériot. None were completed during the war and all but Congo/Guynemer were scrapped in 1945, 1946 or 1947. The Congo/Guynemer was eventually completed as an AA cruiser for the Regia Marina.
Various retcons will/may happen and not necessarily be reflected in the posts or this index
Maps:
Partition of Laos
WW1 and WW2
WW1 and WW2, earlier version with small write up
WW2 ATL-1-1
WW2 ATL-1-2
WW2 ATL-2
WW2 ATL-3
WW1 ATL-1
International Concord
Political/Military Alliances
Political/Military Alliances 1975
Economic Blocs
Human Development Index
Forms of Government (Darfur retconned to being a Monarchy)
(Older map) Nuclear Powers, with nuclear umbrellas
Democracy Index
Most Popular Sports by Nation
PSA/Pacific Federation/California Elections
USA Elections
USSA/ASF Elections
Territorial Evolution of Malaysia(-Pacifica) (with CoA sketches and notes)
3rd Carrier Division World Tour
British Referendums
Timezones
Flags:
3 Malaysian blue ensigns (Ones with supporters canon)
Ensign of the Britannic Revolutionary Navy
Updated East South Sudan, Socialist Australia, Socialist New Zealand (this South Sudan retconned, the other one is still canon)
Malaysian and Pacifican Blue Ensigns
South Sudanese Flags
Latest Flags of USSA and ASF
Flag of the International Concord
Rio de la Platan and Sudamerican Flags
Second Flag of Pacific Federation
PSA Flags (Pacific Federation Flag retconned)
Algerian Flag (the bottom one)
Flag of Ghana (the bottom one)
Flag of Chinese Social Republic
Flags of Sudan
Flag of the Republic of Nyasaland
Flag of Sri Lanka
Flag of Chad
Flags of the Baltic Kingdom
Flags of the Britannic Union and subdivisions
Flag of the United States Liberal Party
Non-Map and Non-Flag Graphics:
Britannic Union Air Force Roundel
West French, Ottoman and Russian Roundels
Istanbul Pact Roundels
South Africa, Malaysia(-Pacifica), New England Roundels
PSA/Pacific Federation/California Roundels
Ghana Roundel
Indian and Sri Lankan Roundels
Warspite, under Britannic command, bombing the French
Coat of Arms of the Dominion of Pacifica (shark outdated)
Coat of Arms of the Dominion of Malaysia-Pacifica (1992-2008)
Malaysian CoAs, a blue ensign for Malaysia
Text:
Commonwealth Roundels
List of the Leaders of Britannic Union (political parties and leaders mentioned in note 7 can be disregarded)
List of the Presidents of USSA/ASF (partially retconned check map for updated version)
List of the Presidents of USA
List of the Presidents of PSA/Pacific Federation/California
List of the Prime Ministers of the UK
Rulers of the Romanov Realms
Political Parties of the Russian Empire
List of Sovereign States
List of Dreadnought Battleships, Fast Battleships and Battlecruisers
List of Aircraft Carriers
List of Ballistic Missile Submarines
Primary Subdivisions of UBSC at its height (1972-1976)
Basic organization of the Union of Arab States
IC Great Powers
Notes and Ideas
Ideas and Thoughts on Britain
Socialist Symbols ITTL
Basic Historical Overview of Iran
Broad history of Balkan states
Monarchies and the titles of their rulers
History Exam: Japan from WW2 to 1970
Misconception of USSA Dictatorship
Treaty of Chicago, 1970 (Chicago could be District of Lincoln instead of Jefferson)
Indian Battleships
Some writing on parliaments of UK in exile, Malaysia-Pacifica, Restored UK and UAS
Ottoman/Turkish Navy ships trough the years (wip)
Maps:
Partition of Laos
WW1 and WW2
WW1 and WW2, earlier version with small write up
WW2 ATL-1-1
WW2 ATL-1-2
WW2 ATL-2
WW2 ATL-3
WW1 ATL-1
International Concord
Political/Military Alliances
Political/Military Alliances 1975
Economic Blocs
Human Development Index
Forms of Government (Darfur retconned to being a Monarchy)
(Older map) Nuclear Powers, with nuclear umbrellas
Democracy Index
Most Popular Sports by Nation
PSA/Pacific Federation/California Elections
USA Elections
USSA/ASF Elections
Territorial Evolution of Malaysia(-Pacifica) (with CoA sketches and notes)
3rd Carrier Division World Tour
British Referendums
Timezones
Flags:
3 Malaysian blue ensigns (Ones with supporters canon)
Ensign of the Britannic Revolutionary Navy
Updated East South Sudan, Socialist Australia, Socialist New Zealand (this South Sudan retconned, the other one is still canon)
Malaysian and Pacifican Blue Ensigns
South Sudanese Flags
Latest Flags of USSA and ASF
Flag of the International Concord
Rio de la Platan and Sudamerican Flags
Second Flag of Pacific Federation
PSA Flags (Pacific Federation Flag retconned)
Algerian Flag (the bottom one)
Flag of Ghana (the bottom one)
Flag of Chinese Social Republic
Flags of Sudan
Flag of the Republic of Nyasaland
Flag of Sri Lanka
Flag of Chad
Flags of the Baltic Kingdom
Flags of the Britannic Union and subdivisions
Flag of the United States Liberal Party
Non-Map and Non-Flag Graphics:
Britannic Union Air Force Roundel
West French, Ottoman and Russian Roundels
Istanbul Pact Roundels
South Africa, Malaysia(-Pacifica), New England Roundels
PSA/Pacific Federation/California Roundels
Ghana Roundel
Indian and Sri Lankan Roundels
Warspite, under Britannic command, bombing the French
Coat of Arms of the Dominion of Pacifica (shark outdated)
Coat of Arms of the Dominion of Malaysia-Pacifica (1992-2008)
Malaysian CoAs, a blue ensign for Malaysia
Text:
Commonwealth Roundels
List of the Leaders of Britannic Union (political parties and leaders mentioned in note 7 can be disregarded)
List of the Presidents of USSA/ASF (partially retconned check map for updated version)
List of the Presidents of USA
List of the Presidents of PSA/Pacific Federation/California
List of the Prime Ministers of the UK
Rulers of the Romanov Realms
Political Parties of the Russian Empire
List of Sovereign States
List of Dreadnought Battleships, Fast Battleships and Battlecruisers
List of Aircraft Carriers
List of Ballistic Missile Submarines
Primary Subdivisions of UBSC at its height (1972-1976)
Basic organization of the Union of Arab States
IC Great Powers
Notes and Ideas
Ideas and Thoughts on Britain
Socialist Symbols ITTL
Basic Historical Overview of Iran
Broad history of Balkan states
Monarchies and the titles of their rulers
History Exam: Japan from WW2 to 1970
Misconception of USSA Dictatorship
Treaty of Chicago, 1970 (Chicago could be District of Lincoln instead of Jefferson)
Indian Battleships
Some writing on parliaments of UK in exile, Malaysia-Pacifica, Restored UK and UAS
Ottoman/Turkish Navy ships trough the years (wip)
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In 1820 Veterans of the King's German Legion start a colony on New Caledonia. This colony is absorbed into the British Empire when Victoria comes to the British throne rather than stay with Hanover. In the 1870's the colony forms a naval defence force called the Queen's German Navy. In 1906 they order a Duke of Edinburgh class Armoured Cruiser as flagship, the King's German Ship Prince Albert. With the outbreak of WWI the King's German Navy is renamed the Royal New Caledonian Navy, and the King's German Legion the New Caledonian Army. His Majesty's New Caledonian Ship Prince Albert survives WWI and remains preserved as a museum ship in New Hamburg, New Caledonia.
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Driftless
Donor
A toughie follow-on question: by 1914, do the descendants of the German Legion speak a German dialect, a British Commonwealth dialect, or some unique Creole version?
Officially the colony is Bi Lingual but a new language is developing that's a mix of German (63%), Australian English (35%) and a small number of native loan words picked up from the early settlers native servant girls (2%). Most of the native population had vanished by the 1840's but no one talks about why. With the advent of Radio and Talking Movies in the 1920's this changes and English becomes dominant, particularly amongst the young.
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During the late 1920's the New Caledonian Government makes the choice to have the Prince Albert rebuilt. They would have preferred to have a new ship built but the naval treaties prevented them getting the type of ship they wanted. The ship is very heavily modified (cynics say they unscrewed the name plate took off the guns and added them to a new ship). Converted to oil firing and with the triple expansion engines are replaced by turbines of much higher performance the top speed is raised from a pedestrian 23 knots to a more respectable 28 she's more than a match (on paper) for anything short of a capital ship.
Driftless
Donor
Why did it take navies such a long time to develop better underwater protection for warships? Mines and spar torpedoes had been in some level of regular use since the mid 19th Century, and self-propelled torpedos since the late 19th. How many warships even as late as WW1 succumbed to a single, often comparably small explosion below the water line.
Largely because specialising in torpedoes was seen as something oddballs did, and daring to criticise or question the supremacy of the big gun and the Battleship was career ending. Also in order to launch an early Whitehead Torpedo a torpedo boat had to get suicidally close to an enemy warship that bristled with guns of all sizes.
They were also horribly unreliable, inaccurate, the boats which fired them were fragile little things as well.
I'm going to discount mines as they were considered a mainly coastal thing. No one planned on a close blockade so they weren't considered important.
Torpedoes were essentially considered all but defeated as a threat to capital ships by increases in range of guns during the early 1900s. Also a decent torpedo defense system was expensive. Not for itself but because it would mean extra machinery was needed and cost speed.
Its worth noting that the worst loss of WW1 (HMS Audacious lost to a mine) was worsened by being at a fairly relaxed status. It was fairly close to the UK and people thought they were safe. Bulkheads weren't closed etc. The loss was to being hit by a mine while at complacent rather than from being hit by a mine.
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It's easy to criticize in hindsight but until subs and airplane became more reliable, the destroyer torpedo boat was a risky and seemingly suicidal prospect
Because anti torpedo defenses are very difficult to design. No navy ever really got it right. No battleship was ever well protected vs. torpedoes. The only BB built that could ever take more than 4 torpedoes was Yamato and she was so exceptionally large as to be an impractical design.
The last of the British armoured cruisers was something of an oddball. HMS Kraken was ordered in 1907 by Peru. She was a modified version of the Minotaur Class armoured cruiser with steam turbines, mixed oil and coal fired boilers and a universal main battery of 2 twin 7.5" guns in the bow and stern and 10 single 7.5" guns along her sides giving 14 in total. The completed ship was purchased by the RN in 1910 when Peru proved unable, or unwilling to pay for her.
Photographs of the Kraken are hard to find and she is most often represented by her half sister Minotaur.
Photographs of the Kraken are hard to find and she is most often represented by her half sister Minotaur.
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I'm guestimating something around 27-28 knots. Blucher with triple expansion engines managed 25 so I don't think that unreasonable.