Alternate warships of nations

[Gokbay]

So, about that thing. I'm considering making some posts about service lives of various ship classes.

Some of the planned posts:

Capital Ships built by and for the British Empire in Exile, as well as some brief mention of Cruisers​

Commonwealth Standardization (Commonwealth Joint Ship Classes) Program​

Ottoman Battleships​

Battleships of the Indian Navy​

Capital Ships of the Marine Royale​

Multinational Capital Ship Classes (and ships that served in multiple navies) (other than Commonwealth Joint classes)​

Pseudo capital ships (think OTL "pocket battleships"/panzerschiffe and Kirovs, also helicopter cruisers, helicopter destroyers and amphibious assault ships)​

Any comments? Which of those listed are of more interest?

Starting to do this thing I mentioned.

Battleships of the Indian Navy:
Indian Federation was founded in 1924 following the 1919-1924 Indian War of Independence, out of the Northwestern part of the British Raj. Following the Anglo-French defeat in WW1 and with the British Springtime Revolution (roughly contemporaneous with the Indian War of Independence, thought specifically 1920-1925 in the British Isles, -1927 till peace/ceasefire between the Revolutionaries and the British Empire) the British were unable to stop the Indian independence. During the British Revolution the mighty Royal Navy was split in two with many crews and ships joining the Revolution. With the "end" of the Revolution in 1927 some ships of the new Revolutionary Navy were gifted to India in a gesture of brotherhood and friendship against British Imperialism. These ships included several destroyer flotillas, a few light cruisers but most importantly, two battleships. This post will cover the fates of these two in brief.

(photo of HMS Hindustan from 1914 OTL, from Wikipedia)​

INS Hindustan: The Hindustan was a King Edward VII class pre-dreadnought battleship, originally of the Royal Navy. A late pre-dreadnought, she was powerful compared to most ships of her type, with 4 9.2" guns as a secondary armament. Outside of serving as a depot ship for the Zeebrugge and the first Ostend raids during WW1 the ship did not have an eventful service record. On 15 May 1918, Hindustan paid off into reserve at the Nore, and was employed as an accommodation ship for the Royal Naval Barracks at Chatham Dockyard. She was placed on the disposal list at Chatham in June 1919 and on the sale list in August 1919. With the start of the British Revolution in March 1920 the ship was taken by the Revolutionaries and commissioned as RNS Hindustan. During the Revolution she variously supported the Red Army by providing coastal gunfire and also engaged in several battles and skirmishes with the Royalist elements of the Navy. With the end of the Revolution she was quickly repaired of the small damage she had accumulated throughout the war and gifted to the Indian Federation, which commissioned her as INS Hindustan. She had an uneventful carrier in the training of the newly established Indian Navy, surviving the years until the Anglo-Indian War thanks to the small size of the Indian Navy (causing the government to feel the need to keep her in service as it was believed that India needed everything it could get to liberate rest of the Raj from British rule). With the start of the Anglo-Indian War in April of 1939 Indian Navy was mobilized for coastal bombardment support. Royal Navy, while mostly busy with combating the Revolutionary Navy was able to commit significant modern forces to India. Elements from East Indies Station and China Station were transferred to respond to the Indian Navy. Indian Navy would fight its only major battle in the war with the Battle off Bombay on 11 June 1939. Indian force operating south of the main fleet, consisting of the cruiser INS Delhi and four destroyers, meeting in battle with British light forces. Indian forces in the south signaled to the main forces to allow them to retreat. Delhi was damaged as well as one of the destroyers with two lost. While INS Azadi turned north, and together with Indian forces to the North of the battleships, consisting of the cruisers INS Calcutta and four destroyers, and survivors of the southern force. Hindustan separated from Azadi to split-up the British attention to make sure Azadi and the main force survived and met up with the 4 destroyers of the western force. Hindustan and escorting destroyers were ordered sail into the Sea of Oman and ordered to head towards port trough a more roundabout route if possible and sail to Ottoman Arabia to be interned if not. With the main British forces ordered to either chase the main Indian force or engage in the coastal gunfire support role now no longer filled by the Indian Navy forces sent to catch Hindustan was not large. Commanded by Commodore Henry Harwood, consisting of Leander class light cruisers Ajax, Achilles and D class cruiser Danae. The smoke of the British cruisers were spotted by the Indians about the quarter-way from Bombay to Diu, towards the southwest. Hindustan and the leading destroyer turned away towards Daman with the two of the remaining three destroyers making smoke to mask the maneuver and the last destroyer steaming towards the British cruiser to make them turn away with a torpedo attack. This destroyer was swiftly neutralized with precise 6" gunfire. Danae further managed to occupy the two Indian destroyers, allowing Ajax and Achilles to sail past and reach Hindustan. With the crew of the Hindustan not being as well trained as their compatriots on Azadi or their British counterparts their potentially deadly 12" or 9.2" shots failed to hit the two cruisers. Allowing the cruisers to set fire to the upper works of the pre-dreadnought such as the boat deck, with a particular 6" HE shell from the Achilles impacting the bridge of the Hindustan, and close into torpedo range. With both cruisers launching torpedoes at the battleship, with the Ajax hitting and sinking the pre-dreadnought. With gunfire from Achilles incapacitating the destroyer. The Royal Navy cruisers picked up survivors from the Indian ships.​

​

​

(the italic text taken directly from wikipedia pages of the irl ship)​

(photo of HMS Emperor of India from 1920 OTL, from Wikipedia)​

INS Azadi: INS Azadi was originally HMS Emperor of India, an Iron Duke-class super-dreadnought battleship of the British Royal Navy. She missed the Battle of Jutland but participated in the action of 19 August 1916. Following the war, during the revolution she joined the Revolutionary Navy and was commissioned as RNS Independence. RNS Independence participated in the Revolution similarly to the Hindustan, thought as a more modern super-dreadnought she participated in other actions as well. Independence was present in the 1st Battle of the Irish Sea where the battlecruiser RNS Panther exploded after a magazine hit by HMS Iron Duke (on the Royalist side the King George V class battleship HMS Centurion was lost), the largely inconclusive Battle of the Channel and the Invasion of Ireland. After the end of the Revolution she was gifted to India and was commissioned as INS Azadi. She was the flagship of the Indian Navy and served during the Anglo-Indian War. Where she mostly served for coastal support and as a deterrent to Royal Navy cruiser forces. She was present in the Battle off Bombay where she and HMS Malaya engaged in some long range gunnery in one of the closer moments of the pursuit, thought no hits were recorded on either side. Later she was involved in action of 23rd November against battlecruiser HMS Tiger and heavy cruiser HMAS Sydney, where much of her port casemate battery was incapacitated by an 8" shell from the Sydney, while Sydney was also damaged by the Azadi, thought the cruiser was sunk by aircraft from BUS Formidable. Azadi was later heavily damaged by torpedo bomber strike from HMS Emperor of India, HMS Argus and HMS Hermes (thought the Hermes was sunk soon after by aircraft from BUS Formidable and BUS Indomitable). Azadi managed to to reach Calcutta (occupied by Indian forces) despite the damage and spent the last few months of the war in port. She was repaired after the end of the Anglo-Indian War and remained the flagship of the Indian Navy until she was scrapped in 1955.​

​

Spoiler: The Kaiser, The Tsar, and A Springtime Revolution Posts Index

Various retcons will/may happen and not necessarily be reflected in the posts or this index
Maps:
Partition of Laos
WW1 and WW2
WW1 and WW2, earlier version with small write up
WW2 ATL-1-1
WW2 ATL-1-2
WW2 ATL-2
WW2 ATL-3
WW1 ATL-1
International Concord
Political/Military Alliances
Political/Military Alliances 1975
Economic Blocs
Human Development Index
Forms of Government (Darfur retconned to being a Monarchy)
(Older map) Nuclear Powers, with nuclear umbrellas
Democracy Index
Most Popular Sports by Nation
PSA/Pacific Federation/California Elections
USA Elections
USSA/ASF Elections
Territorial Evolution of Malaysia(-Pacifica) (with CoA sketches and notes)
3rd Carrier Division World Tour
British Referendums
Timezones

Flags:
3 Malaysian blue ensigns (Ones with supporters canon)
Ensign of the Britannic Revolutionary Navy
Updated East South Sudan, Socialist Australia, Socialist New Zealand (this South Sudan retconned, the other one is still canon)
Malaysian and Pacifican Blue Ensigns
South Sudanese Flags
Latest Flags of USSA and ASF
Flag of the International Concord
Rio de la Platan and Sudamerican Flags
Second Flag of Pacific Federation
PSA Flags (Pacific Federation Flag retconned)
Algerian Flag (the bottom one)
Flag of Ghana (the bottom one)
Flag of Chinese Social Republic
Flags of Sudan
Flag of the Republic of Nyasaland
Flag of Sri Lanka
Flag of Chad
Flags of the Baltic Kingdom
Flags of the Britannic Union and subdivisions
Flag of the United States Liberal Party

Non-Map and Non-Flag Graphics:
Britannic Union Air Force Roundel
West French, Ottoman and Russian Roundels
Istanbul Pact Roundels
South Africa, Malaysia(-Pacifica), New England Roundels
PSA/Pacific Federation/California Roundels
Ghana Roundel
Indian and Sri Lankan Roundels
Warspite, under Britannic command, bombing the French
Coat of Arms of the Dominion of Pacifica (shark outdated)
Coat of Arms of the Dominion of Malaysia-Pacifica (1992-2008)
Malaysian CoAs, a blue ensign for Malaysia

Text:
Commonwealth Roundels
List of the Leaders of Britannic Union (political parties and leaders mentioned in note 7 can be disregarded)
List of the Presidents of USSA/ASF (partially retconned check map for updated version)
List of the Presidents of USA
List of the Presidents of PSA/Pacific Federation/California
List of the Prime Ministers of the UK
Rulers of the Romanov Realms
Political Parties of the Russian Empire
List of Sovereign States
List of Dreadnought Battleships, Fast Battleships and Battlecruisers
List of Aircraft Carriers
List of Ballistic Missile Submarines
Primary Subdivisions of UBSC at its height (1972-1976)
Basic organization of the Union of Arab States
IC Great Powers
Notes and Ideas
Ideas and Thoughts on Britain
Socialist Symbols ITTL
Basic Historical Overview of Iran
Broad history of Balkan states
Monarchies and the titles of their rulers
History Exam: Japan from WW2 to 1970
Misconception of USSA Dictatorship
Treaty of Chicago, 1970 (Chicago could be District of Lincoln instead of Jefferson)

 

[Count of Crisco]

Elbonia challenge!

The year is 1922, although the elective Elbonian crowned federal republic took no part in the recently concluded great war the government has been made aware of several serious deficiencies with the Elbonian armed forces, particularly the navy. With the surplus French ships of the line purchased in the 1870s now clearly obsolete compared to even a sloop with ambition the government has promised significant funds to be put at the disposal of the naval minister, you. Your task is to purchase warships of sufficient strength, and sufficient number to defend the shores of the nation, and escort its merchant fleet as it exports mud across the globe. You are free to select ships from any nation without resistance or opposition provided said nation has either announced plans to dispose of them or is offering them for export. The recently concluded naval limitations treaty signed in Washington should help greatly in this effort.

Unbeknownst to your government you are in fact a traitor. You wish to see Elbonia united with the newly formed communist nationalist state to your north/east/south/west and so are determined that your fleet should be made up of the worst vessels possible to ensure that when the communist revolution occurs and Elbonia is invaded the invaders are not unduly troubled by an Elbonian fleet capable of putting up any real resistance. You are however unable to purchase true garbage ships as it would raise eyebrows and suspicions alike. Instead vessels ordered must look good on paper, and be justified in some way, while still being terrible in every way.

The ships you must order are to be in the following categories.
A few capital ships, either a battleship or battlecruiser
Large cruisers of some form or another
Smaller scouting suitable cruisers
Suitable numbers of destroyers or torpedo boats to escort them
Some submarines
And some escorts for your mud exporting merchant fleet.

 

[Spencersj345.346]

Well time to buy some French stuff.

 

[Count of Crisco]

Well time to buy some French stuff.

That may fall under the "to obviously garbage" category.

 

[Talwar]

Why the cut down bow if you don't mind? I'd have thought a flush deck would be better?

Probably because the barbette did not fit so midships needed to be higher.

Probably, but having her flush decked forward of the turret and then the stepdown aft where it is would be a 'dryer' ship wouldn't it?

Sorry, didn't notice these replies.

My original plan was 4.8m foredeck with a superfiring turret, which is sort of the conventional monitor layout.

Then I wondered what would happen if I replaced the superfiring feature by increasing the foredeck height by one deck. I believe this gave me a bit of a boost to hull strength and stability. So I rolled with it, even though it looks weird.

 

[Gokbay]

A few capital ships, either a battleship or battlecruiser

There are surviving Invincible/Indefatigable class battlecruisers. Another option could be Lexingtons (they have hilariously bad armour after all)

 

[CV(N)-6]

A few capital ships, either a battleship or battlecruiser

6 twin turrets in triple superfiring fore and aft with as little beam as possible to go as fast as possible. Looks great on paper, but that stability...

Large cruisers of some form or another

HMS Furious copies complete with a main armament of 2x18".

Smaller scouting suitable cruisers

Omahahahaha!

Suitable numbers of destroyers or torpedo boats to escort them

Japanese Tomozuru-class. Or maybe the age old idea of sticking 6" guns on destroyers...

Some submarines

K and M-class FTW!

And some escorts for your mud exporting merchant fleet.

Armed Merchant Cruisers!

 

[Count of Crisco]

There are surviving Invincible/Indefatigable class battlecruisers. Another option could be Lexingtons (they have hilariously bad armour after all)

But you forget the two South Carolina class ships knocking about in the US. Plus the I's are only really garbage compared to other battleships. You could refit them with higher speed and they would be a nightmare for a treaty cruiser. A SC, or any 21 knot first gen dreadnought really, would be worse in the long run.

 

[dave_r_gilbert]

Elbonia challenge!

The year is 1922, although the elective Elbonian crowned federal republic took no part in the recently concluded great war the government has been made aware of several serious deficiencies with the Elbonian armed forces, particularly the navy. With the surplus French ships of the line purchased in the 1870s now clearly obsolete compared to even a sloop with ambition the government has promised significant funds to be put at the disposal of the naval minister, you. Your task is to purchase warships of sufficient strength, and sufficient number to defend the shores of the nation, and escort its merchant fleet as it exports mud across the globe. You are free to select ships from any nation without resistance or opposition provided said nation has either announced plans to dispose of them or is offering them for export. The recently concluded naval limitations treaty signed in Washington should help greatly in this effort.

Unbeknownst to your government you are in fact a traitor. You wish to see Elbonia united with the newly formed communist nationalist state to your north/east/south/west and so are determined that your fleet should be made up of the worst vessels possible to ensure that when the communist revolution occurs and Elbonia is invaded the invaders are not unduly troubled by an Elbonian fleet capable of putting up any real resistance. You are however unable to purchase true garbage ships as it would raise eyebrows and suspicions alike. Instead vessels ordered must look good on paper, and be justified in some way, while still being terrible in every way.

The ships you must order are to be in the following categories.
A few capital ships, either a battleship or battlecruiser
Large cruisers of some form or another
Smaller scouting suitable cruisers
Suitable numbers of destroyers or torpedo boats to escort them
Some submarines
And some escorts for your mud exporting merchant fleet.

German war surplus.
Cheap, with an OK reputation, and they look all right.
Those salvaged from Scapa Flow might have slight water damage.
Spares and replacement ammunition unobtainable, so for those that haven't broken down, once the magazines are empty, ramming is what they are left with.

 

[Count of Crisco]

German war surplus.
Cheap, with an OK reputation, and they look all right.
Those salvaged from Scapa Flow might have slight water damage.
Spares and replacement ammunition unobtainable, so for those that haven't broken down, once the magazines are empty, ramming is what they are left with.

Also the ships which were not scuttled seem to have been ill maintained by the skeleton crews the Germans were required to keep on the ships. So come cleanup and repairs would be needed right off the bat.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

Well time to buy some French stuff.

That may fall under the "to obviously garbage" category.

It's not like that was much of a possibility anyways, Elbonia doesn't get along with the French to well, even if the Franco Elbonian War is still a good 75 years in the future

There are surviving Invincible/Indefatigable class battlecruisers. Another option could be Lexingtons (they have hilariously bad armour after all)

Lexingtons are not an option, over 35,000 tons, US cannot complete them due to the WNT even for export

I class may work, but they are obviously too small and weak compared to modern ships, same with the older dreadnoughts being disposed of. This has to look plausible for the work of someone not trying to sabotage things for the budget given, and we apparently aren't scraping the bottom of the barrel here

In general ships are pretty close to custom jobs anyways, so just ask the buyer to design the ships to your specs and give them bad specs. IE specify all decks must be 7' high to accommodate the wearing of traditional Elbonian headgear by the crews (have you ever seen a picture of an Elbonian without the hat? )

Capital ships ask for 5x2 16" guns and 26kn on 35,000 tons(can't do bigger or bigger guns due to WNT provisions), say include a powerful torpedo battery, 8 tubes of 24.5", some powerful secondaries, looks like a modern powerful unit, but you have to sacrifice armor, TDS and seaworthiness, possibly magazine endurance, and have a very limited arc of fire for the middle turret, with a huge weakness for the torpedo battery. Specify that whoever is actually building the ship you will use British 16" mk. 1, as that is the worst 16" available for all it looks impressive

Do similar for large cruisers, specify a powerful armament of 5x2 8" guns on 10,000 tons (8" and 10k are the biggest you can get due to the WNT export limitations), with a powerful torpedo battery (say 16 24.5" with reloads)mounted mid decks for maximum explosive damage and 35 knots of speed, along with long range, possible but you have paper armor and very weak ships. Specify the 8" guns must be able to elevate to 85 degrees for AA work, sounds like a good idea but is useless and wastes weight

Light cruisers, similar, specify say 4x2 6" guns heavy torpedo armament and 37 knots on 4,000 tons, possible, you get a well armed ship for the size, but unspectacular armor and huge compromises in seakeeping and stability and structural weakness. Add an ASW armament, seems useful, but in practice useless and more weight/boom potential/deck crowding, again with high main battery elevation for AA work

Destroyers again trick is to specify small and fast, say 800-1000tons, 39 knots, heavy torpedo battery, relatively light gun battery say 4 4", single purpose, and you get a ship that can't use its high speed in any sort of seaway and risks capsizing, and is underarmed versus opposition

Subs, either try something big and clumsy or tiny and short ranged, or a mix. Big go with something like 2,000 tons, 21 knot surface speed, heavy gun battery, and you get something that wallows like a pig, can't maneuver and the overpowered machinery plant breaks down often. Tiny, go with sub 100 ton, only 2 torpedoes, and not enough range to do anything useful

Escorts, I'd go with US Eagle Boat copies, but smaller, because they were lousy already and making them smaller will make things worse, and you get an escort that is unseaworthy and can't keep up with the merchants in a seaway, while being able to argue it is built using the most modern manufacturing techniques

In general have the engines forced on trials, so that you generate impressive speed figures, but do permanent damage and lose some speed

 

[perfectgeneral]

Elbonia challenge!



The ships you must order are to be in the following categories.
A few capital ships, either a battleship or battlecruiser
Large cruisers of some form or another
Smaller scouting suitable cruisers
Suitable numbers of destroyers or torpedo boats to escort them
Some submarines
And some escorts for your mud exporting merchant fleet.

The capital ships will be the Russian fleet. Great triple 12in turrets, terrible ships. They can keep the turrets in the Soviet Union. We shall have British 15in/42 with slow heavy shell in single mounts instead. Three monitors with a single triple 15in/45 mk2 turret made as light as possible while retaining 14in front armour (sloped chevron), 12in side and rear armour and 8in bustle floor and roof plates. Magazine loading a deck below shell loading. Shells as for the 15in/42. To stay at Vickers until such time as the monitor design and payment beyond costs can be finalised. All secondary guns to be 85mm low profile three man turrets that look suspiciously like tank turrets to be ordered (and maybe collected one day) from the USSR.
All others will be purchased from the Soviet union, as new design builds where necessary. All profit to the revolution!
Plate and structural steel will be sourced from the best available worldwide then replaced by rubbish once in the soviet shipyards.
Quality large submarines from The Netherlands. Pretty useless countering a revolution and handy afterwards for fighting the fascistic capitalists.

I'd be cautious of adding much shore bombardment capability to the fleet. No HE shells.

 

[Count of Crisco]

I wonder if Spain would sell Elbonia the Espana class?

 

[naraic]

Elbonia should buy from as many sellers as possible.

The fleet will be a logistical nightmare.

The person making the decision can argue I'm buying good cruisers. That battleship was a steal. Those destroyers were just cheap etc.

Edited to add: do you have inside information on the time frame for the invasion. If the invaders are coming in 2 years time you can order new builds to come in 3 years time. If the invasion is coming in 10 years you can order clapped out ww1 ships that are available now as we are about to be invaded.

 

[Count of Crisco]

I have a new favorite weird and random warship. Beyond the USS Carronade!

Basically an attempt by the USN to make a dedicated shore bombardment vessel for supporting marine landings. Only ship of her type in USN service and possibly built to a flawed concept, but still just weird and wacky, like the front half of a DD with the back end missing.

 

[AJE]

Well time to buy some French stuff.

Not after 1922, the Dunkerque and Richelieu classes ended up being some of the best ships for their size (and most of their other interwar ships were excellent).

 

[Spencersj345.346]

Not after 1922, the Dunkerque and Richelieu classes ended up being some of the best ships for their size (and most of their other interwar ships were excellent).

not most of their Destroyers and cruisers

 

[HMS Warspite]

not most of their Destroyers and cruisers

Actually their large destroyers, or contre-torpilleurs, as well as their later interwar period cruisers were inovative and well respected abroad for their power. The first treaty cruisers and smaller destroyers (torpileurs d'escadre) were less well designed, but the French realy made a large step quickly to adjust teh defects of these early designs an follow up vessels, even more so than the rather conservative USN and Royal Navy who stuck mostly to well tested designs of the late Great War mostly, untill well in the mid and later 30's. Their focus was on maintaining the status quo, with basically what they already had left from the Great War, while the French needed to rebuild their fleet basically from mscratch.

 

[Spencersj345.346]

The problem with French DDs was the slow rate of fire of their guns and the less said about the first 6 of the 7 french heavy cruisers in terms of protection the better and the light crusiers aren't much better

 

[CV12Hornet]

As I understand it, the problem was metallurgy. Specifically, that French metallurgy (probably not helped by the Germans squatting on their biggest steel-producing regions for all of WW1) was behind everyone else's, especially in the area of structural steels. This meant more weight had to be devoted to structure and hull, and less to things like armor.

Between improvements in that arena and dramatic improvements in boiler technology later French ships had a ton of extra weight to play with.