Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

[usertron2020]

Yeah, I know. I joined the Board a little after that era, while robertp6165 was still writing. The quality of TL writing has gone up since then.

I would hope that my one attempt at an ATL, "Grant at Gettysburg", has withstood the test of time. If nothing else, it was a very rare for its day ATL where the Union did significantly better than OTL.

 

[Belschaft]

I would hope that my one attempt at an ATL, "Grant at Gettysburg", has withstood the test of time. If nothing else, it was a very rare for its day ATL where the Union did significantly better than OTL.

Link?

 

[Ironshark]

I would hope that my one attempt at an ATL, "Grant at Gettysburg", has withstood the test of time. If nothing else, it was a very rare for its day ATL where the Union did significantly better than OTL.

oh yeah! bro I just binged that in
.I forgot but 2022 or 2023 I think.
it was awesome! are you doing better?

 

[Arnold d.c]

I would hope that my one attempt at an ATL, "Grant at Gettysburg", has withstood the test of time. If nothing else, it was a very rare for its day ATL where the Union did significantly better than OTL.

Man, your TL was a big influence on me as a teen. Your TL was what got me into the American Civil War and a major factor for joining this board. I bought Pfanz’s Gettysburg series just to understand the differences in the blow-to-blow stories and resulted in my interest into wargaming and refighting old battles. Even looking at it with a critical lens and the advantage of nearly a decade of new scholarship, the TL is plausible with a few quibbles on personality and casualty rates. I really am thankful for the enjoyment of reading your TL and the new hobbies it generated.

 

[Steelers94]

I would hope that my one attempt at an ATL, "Grant at Gettysburg", has withstood the test of time. If nothing else, it was a very rare for its day ATL where the Union did significantly better than OTL.

Gonna admit I really wish you'd polish up the TL and properly finish it someday. At the very least transfer the story to its own thread with some threadmarks so its easier to read.

 

[usertron2020]

Gonna admit I really wish you'd polish up the TL and properly finish it someday. At the very least transfer the story to its own thread with some threadmarks so it's easier to read.

Sadly, I am such a Luddite when it comes to computers that I lack even the basics of knowing how to paste, lift, and even just make threadmarks. After all these years I'm no longer living in a lifestyle that allows me the time every day (or even the occasional day) to re-learn all the critical research necessary to continue, much less restart, the ATL.
Also, considering all the flak drawn upon the story (much of which turned out to be not well-meaning constructive criticism, but rather some turning into the denunciations of self-denying Neo-Confederates), I'd consider it more likely to just reboot the thread (with much of it unchanged) as "my own", with more fleshing out of the storyline pre-Gettysburg (Grant's story in the western campaigns).

 

[usertron2020]

Link?

If only i knew how to establish links...
I suggest you research "All threads started by" under the name of a long banned member:
Paul V McNutt
Use "Grant at Gettysburg" for the title.

PVM initially started it as a Discussion Group that quickly fell dormant. Not realizing the rules about necro-posting (I was a new member at the time), I posted an interest in the thread, and got permission from the Admin as well as PVM to start up the thread again as an actual ATL. So technically, I have no ATLs credited under my own name.

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

If only i knew how to establish links...
I suggest you research "All threads started by" under the name of a long banned member:
Paul V McNutt
Use "Grant at Gettysburg" for the title.

PVM initially started it as a Discussion Group that quickly fell dormant. Not realizing the rules about necro-posting (I was a new member at the time), I posted an interest in the thread, and got permission from the Admin as well as PVM to start up the thread again as an actual ATL. So technically, I have no ATLs credited under my own name.

Apparently it got long enough there was a 2nd thread.

Grant at Gettysburg

I did not think this was possible until I read the feedback from ACW Round Robin. Here is the P.O.D. Escaped slaves bring word of the approaching Confederate forces to Grants forces at Pittsburgh Landing. Losing the element of surprise, the Confederate forces at the Battle Of Shiloh suffered a...

www.alternatehistory.com

Grant at Gettysburg II

At Pittsburg Landing, Grant takes seriously the signs of a Confederate attack and orders his troops to prepare. When the Confederates attack the Union troops drive them back. After the Victory at Shiloh, the Union military makes Vicksburg the priority. The siege of Vicksburg begins in late...

www.alternatehistory.com

 

[Red_Galiray]

pretty interesting!

Thanks!

One of the smaller (but still amazing bits) of this TL is how wonderfully evocative and poetic the chapter names are. It highlights in general how *authentic* this timeline feels to the time period. Not only have you created a compelling narrative of a more transformative ACW, you've captured the essence of 19th century American prose- all the more impressive coming from a non-native speaker.

Bravo, and I'm looking forwards to the next chapter of this radically changed United States!

I'm really glad you think so since I would often spend a long time thinking of appropriate titles! Very nice to hear they work to invoke the images of the conflict and the story.

I'll miss this thread but the story goes on

viva la revolution!

Vive !

Awesome job! It's fun to see the development of the timeline. Truthfully, I never thought that Lee had Victory disease too fast because it wasn't just gettysburg, it was his invasion of Maryland in 1862 that shows he was very aggressive at times. The 1863 when is attributed to Victory disease, however, because it comes on the heels of such a blundering Union defeat.

There are a lot of fascinating characters in the American Civil war. I am really looking forward to the second timeline of this great doubleheader.

That was my own impression as well. Especially after the bigger Peninsula victory, he would be even more aggressive than OTL.

Curious...

The ending chapters of the Civil War Saga depicts a number of unbreakable Slaver advocates fleeing the defeated CSA, many of them with burning hatred for the victorious North.

What are the chances of these escaping holdouts going the way of Belka in the world of Strangereal (from the "Ace Combat" series)? Would Stephens and Beauregard, and Planter Ladies like Mary Chestnut and Gertrude Thomas, or perhaps their descendants, work their way to influence in the foreign nations they have evacuated to, and perhaps instill in these national patsies a desire to war with the US in the future? Would these Lost Causers form their own Council of Grey Men, to foment global conflicts that would sweep up America for destruction, all in the name of their hateful vengeance?

"My people scattered around the globe, living in the shadows of other countries. We had a new purpose... to breed wars."― Dr. Schroeder

Feasibility check of a shadowy Confederate-worshipping Cabal dedicated to destroying the United States by engineering World Wars and superweapons to wage those wars with?

Not very likely to see outside the feverish nightmares of Union men. Most of them have neither political influence, nor economic resources, and their cause, especially after the coup, has become very unpopular with most Europeans.

Pretty interesting stuff!

Hahaha what. This reminds me of that TL where Lincoln is moved south, becomes a Southern senator, friends with Davis and finally becomes the President of the CSA against Seward. IIRC it was done by the author who wrote “The Black and the Gray”, so yeah…. Actually while I could see a Southern Lincoln becoming more radicalized through disgust at slavery, how is a Northern Davis supposed to work? Davis: Raaah, I hate this decadent free labor and machinery!

Jokes aside, Kentucky secession would have made the odds a lot more tough, especially with a big part of Maryland in the Confederacy. Still, it would have been interesting to think of how Reconstruction would have been handled compared to this TL, where Kentucky is “on” the winning side very unhappy about abolition and black rights. Did Kentucky ever produce any notable abolitionists to provide leadership?

Congratulations of making it to the Reconstruction era at last!

Yeah, looking back even I think "what the hell was I thinking?" And, uh, The Black and the Gray. Certainly an example of a by-gone era in alternate history. I could not see something like that being made nowadays - the glorification of the Confederacy and the implausibility would make people tear it to shreds.

I'm ultimately glad Kentucky didn't secede because it provided the example of a "loyal" but completely reactionary State, even more than IOTL. This, alongside the Kansas experience, should influence Reconstruction.

I will say, the historical record is pretty clear that Lincoln’s father moved northwards partly because of his hatred of slavery. I’d go so far as to say that if Illinois became a slave state (as it nearly became) Lincoln would have instead been a Hoosier. I hate nowadays to call things that technically could have happened ASB, but that really would be. It’s probably for the best you chose a much more interesting POD and made a great work out of it.

Of course, that's why I discarded the idea pretty quickly and look back on it as an embarrassing mistake.

Quite.

Embarrassingly, up until this year the site named its award for Outstanding Contribution to Alternate History after the poster, an active neo-confederate who defended the post-war activities of the Klan. It wasn't until 2017 that we took the damn stars and bars off the award!

It goes to show how far the site has come that a wonderful timeline like this can be written about the civil war without being plagued by (too many) racists.

It's been really a very nice surprise to see that the board and my readers more specifically all realize the fundamental evils of slavery and the Confederacy. I'm especially glad no Lost Causer has ever appeared to yell at me, nor can I remember any incident with a racist that hasn't been quickly handled.

Except for the ones that are in the story, that is.

In my opinion, 1 racist is too many.

Most will end up dead, exiled, or in the losing side, so there's a silver lining!

Maybe he could end up on the Supreme Court after his term as Veep?

That's quite possible.

How are things in Texas? It appears to have come out of the whole war the least damaged of the Confederacy

The question is probably better for the new thread, but yes, Texas' situation is quite curious. Since it was never the scene of great battles, was part of the "Kirby Smithdom" rather than the insane Junta, and will in effect only be occupied after the end of the war, Texas has been spared a lot of damage. There hasn't been famine or land redistribution at large scale, and slavery is at its strongest there, which will require a concerted Federal effort.

Of course, that’s why I ranked effect strength at the end. From the studies I have read, there did seem to be permanent increases in female labor force participation, women’s educational attainment and out of wedlock births. Polygamy has not stuck around in the same way and I would agree most of the other issues are a temporary blip as a result of unbalanced demographics that will go away relatively quickly.

That I can agree with!

Kentucky is a weird situation.

A lot of what happened there arose from the regional differences in Kentucky of the time. Central Kentucky (Lexington and the surrounding area) and Western Kentucky were pro-Southern in outlook while East Kentucky, North Kentucky (across the river from Cincinnati) and Louisville were pro-union in outlook.

Due to population density and economic power, Central, in particular, and Western Kentucky came to be the primary regions postwar. North Kentucky and Louisville, being on the river were more tied into the Northern economic structure than the rest of the state. East Kentucky was not developed enough, particularly in infrastructure, to be that much of a factor compared to Central Kentucky. The pro-confederates came to dominate state government and the economic structure.

That said, a situation where the African American vote isn't suppressed will lead to a stronger Republic party postwar than OTL. That, in combination with East Kentucky, Louisville and Northern Kentucky, could act as a counter weight to the Confederates in the Kentucky power structure to lead to a different result than OTL.

Since there was a lot of Confederate raids and guerrilla warfare in those pro-Southern areas, I could see the economic balance shifting towards the pro-Union areas.

I would hope that my one attempt at an ATL, "Grant at Gettysburg", has withstood the test of time. If nothing else, it was a very rare for its day ATL where the Union did significantly better than OTL.

Hm, I should check this out!

 

[Milarqui]

I've seen weirder things.

Such as an actual book where John Brown's rebellion succeeds - and manages to stage a slave rebellion that takes over the South, which successfully secedes after fighting against the Union... which is somehow still led by Abraham Lincoln. And then they create a socialist utopia that eventually encompasses the entire world, with the US being one of the last countries to join.

And, in this AU, there's a novel where John Brown fails and Lincoln is the one that liberates the slaves. It's considered a dystopia.

EDIT: It's called Fire on the Mountain.

 

[generalurist]

As a bit of the promised bonus content, here I shall offer some "fun facts," so to speak, about this TL, alternate scenarios, and ideas I toyed with. Think of it as a making off of the TL.

Very cool to see the "behind the scenes" of a great fic like this! Seems like parts of it were rather spur of the moment- but it hardly shows!

Say: I recall you once saying that if this TL was a look at the most idealistic ACW possible, your Latin America TL would have the most cynical American Civil War possible. Do you still plan to continue that TL? If not, may I ask how you imagined the ACW proceeding there? I'm curious what the 'mirror' of TTL's scenario looks like.

 

[Red_Galiray]

Very cool to see the "behind the scenes" of a great fic like this! Seems like parts of it were rather spur of the moment- but it hardly shows!

Say: I recall you once saying that if this TL was a look at the most idealistic ACW possible, your Latin America TL would have the most cynical American Civil War possible. Do you still plan to continue that TL? If not, may I ask how you imagined the ACW proceeding there? I'm curious what the 'mirror' of TTL's scenario looks like.

Thanks! And yes, while I do have rough drafts a lot of the finer details are made up on the march, so to speak. I'm glad the resulting product is appreciated by so many!

I... don't know if I'll ever continue that TL. I did plan on a Redux since I'm simply not content with the first chapters of Miranda's Dream after my growth as a writer here. I in fact even wrote the first chapter already, but decided against continuing that in favor of focusing on Reconstruction. The plans for the Civil War in that timeline would have envisioned a "true" Civil War, with rival State delegations holding the balance between President Scott and a Southern-rights candidate (funnily enough, Toombs was the most likely choice even before he became the "villain" here), which would result in two rival governments - one headed by the reelected Scott and the other by this candidate. The result would be a much messier, longer, and bloodier Civil War, probably with a degree of Latin American involvement (the Civil War would coincide with a Colombian War against Spain for Cuba). Given Scott's advanced age and health issues, and how the "South" would be initially stronger (all Border States plus some conservative Lower North areas that refuse to recognize the Liberal government), the plan was for the "Union" to eventually descend into military dictatorship after Scott passes away and the VP proves unequal to the tasks, and come back from the brink, ending with a reunited US ruled by a radical Military Junta for a few years.

 

[Whiteshore]

funnily enough, Toombs was the most likely choice even before he became the "villain" here

Is it fine if I add this to the TvTropes page for this TL as an example of "Older Than They Think" with how Toombs being the villain of an American Civil War was a concept initially for the Miranda TL and not this?

 

[Red_Galiray]

Is it fine if I add this to the TvTropes page for this TL as an example of "Older Than They Think" with how Toombs being the villain of an American Civil War was a concept initially for the Miranda TL and not this?

Of course! I always appreciate it when people contribute to the tropes page!

 

[Whiteshore]

Of course! I always appreciate it when people contribute to the tropes page!

Already done! So, basically, your Miranda TL planned to reverse the political development of the US and Latin America?

 

[usertron2020]

Say: I recall you once saying that if this TL was a look at the most idealistic ACW possible, your Latin America TL would have the most cynical American Civil War possible. Do you still plan to continue that TL? If not, may I ask how you imagined the ACW proceeding there? I'm curious what the 'mirror' of TTL's scenario looks like.

If you want a nightmarish dystopian Confederate Victory ATL, check out 67th Tigers' "Trent Affair". IMVHO, Slavery Apologia positively abounded therein.

 

[naraht]

If you want a nightmarish dystopian Confederate Victory ATL, check out 67th Tigers' "Trent Affair". IMVHO, Slavery Apologia positively abounded therein.

Or go with one of the Original Confederate Victory TL "Bring the Jubilee" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bring_the_Jubilee with the TL before our time traveller changed it. Quotes from the Wikipedia article on the plot. (written and set more or less in the 1950s)

"Lee succeeded Jefferson Davis to become the second Confederate President in 1865 (in reality, the Confederate Constitution set the end of Davis's term in early 1868). Although Lee tried to establish a benevolent national policy, and was able to free the slaves, his anti-imperialistic desires were thwarted by a Congress with increasingly imperialistic ambitions, which sent forces to invade Mexico and expanded southward in Latin America."

"In sharp contrast to the Confederacy's prosperity, the United States is depicted as a rump state trapped in perpetual recession, with unemployment and corruption rampant. The U.S. is so destitute that a transcontinental railroad is never constructed past Iowa, while the Confederacy built seven."

" The U.S. military is practically nonexistent (apparently a provision of the 1864 treaty), with foreign powers frequently deploying troops unopposed across the U.S. in regions where their nationals have been attacked—a common occurrence, as many rural areas are poorly governed and lawlessness is rampant in them"

 

[usertron2020]

Or go with one of the Original Confederate Victory TL "Bring the Jubilee" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bring_the_Jubilee with the TL before our time traveller changed it. Quotes from the Wikipedia article on the plot. (written and set more or less in the 1950s)

"Lee succeeded Jefferson Davis to become the second Confederate President in 1865 (in reality, the Confederate Constitution set the end of Davis's term in early 1868). Although Lee tried to establish a benevolent national policy, and was able to free the slaves, his anti-imperialistic desires were thwarted by a Congress with increasingly imperialistic ambitions, which sent forces to invade Mexico and expanded southward in Latin America."

"In sharp contrast to the Confederacy's prosperity, the United States is depicted as a rump state trapped in perpetual recession, with unemployment and corruption rampant. The U.S. is so destitute that a transcontinental railroad is never constructed past Iowa, while the Confederacy built seven."

" The U.S. military is practically nonexistent (apparently a provision of the 1864 treaty), with foreign powers frequently deploying troops unopposed across the U.S. in regions where their nationals have been attacked—a common occurrence, as many rural areas are poorly governed and lawlessness is rampant in them"

I cannot imagine such an ATL surviving in AH.com nowadays. Thankfully.
EDIT: Looking over the synopsis of that book, it looks to me like some direct sourcing from "Jubilee" may have been done by some ATLs here in AH.com.

 

[SenatorChickpea]

The thing is, ‘Bring the Jubilee’ is well written and wasn’t cliche at the time. Consider, from that description, if it sounds like pure Lost Causism or the author is trying to commentate on mid twentieth century American self image?

There’s lots of bad alternate history books out there, and lots of racist ones, but they are a fundamentally different genre than this site’s timelines and shouldn’t be treated as interchangeable.

 

[Odinson]

Or go with one of the Original Confederate Victory TL "Bring the Jubilee" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bring_the_Jubilee with the TL before our time traveller changed it. Quotes from the Wikipedia article on the plot. (written and set more or less in the 1950s)

"Lee succeeded Jefferson Davis to become the second Confederate President in 1865 (in reality, the Confederate Constitution set the end of Davis's term in early 1868). Although Lee tried to establish a benevolent national policy, and was able to free the slaves, his anti-imperialistic desires were thwarted by a Congress with increasingly imperialistic ambitions, which sent forces to invade Mexico and expanded southward in Latin America."

"In sharp contrast to the Confederacy's prosperity, the United States is depicted as a rump state trapped in perpetual recession, with unemployment and corruption rampant. The U.S. is so destitute that a transcontinental railroad is never constructed past Iowa, while the Confederacy built seven."

" The U.S. military is practically nonexistent (apparently a provision of the 1864 treaty), with foreign powers frequently deploying troops unopposed across the U.S. in regions where their nationals have been attacked—a common occurrence, as many rural areas are poorly governed and lawlessness is rampant in them"

Having read the book personally, Bring the Jubilee is nevertheless an interesting work of fiction that offers almost a critique of America and Europe. In the book, there is widespread animosity directed towards African Americans for "causing the war," but this is never presented as a good thing, but instead has the main character condemn it. My interpretation of the reading was the author's condemning of Jim Crow by twisting its placement. Instead of being codified in the south and ignored by the north, Ward Moore's book has Jim Crow exist in the northern states while the south is far from a racial paradise, its seen as less hateful. Is the idea executed well? Not really because it comes off as lost causeism. But, I think in that passage the author was trying to show Jim Crow to an ignorant, or willingly ignorant, population (This was published in 1953, before the outcry for the death of Emmet Till), rather than present the south as morally superior in real life. I feel that the book is instead trying to flip Jim Crow's geographic placement in a rather messy way.