Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

[Arnold d.c]

Pretty interesting stuff!

At some point I had the crazy idea of a TL were Abraham Lincoln and Jefferson Davis swap their childhood homes, with Lincoln growing up in the South and Davis in the North.

Hahaha what. This reminds me of that TL where Lincoln is moved south, becomes a Southern senator, friends with Davis and finally becomes the President of the CSA against Seward. IIRC it was done by the author who wrote “The Black and the Gray”, so yeah…. Actually while I could see a Southern Lincoln becoming more radicalized through disgust at slavery, how is a Northern Davis supposed to work? Davis: Raaah, I hate this decadent free labor and machinery!

Jokes aside, Kentucky secession would have made the odds a lot more tough, especially with a big part of Maryland in the Confederacy. Still, it would have been interesting to think of how Reconstruction would have been handled compared to this TL, where Kentucky is “on” the winning side very unhappy about abolition and black rights. Did Kentucky ever produce any notable abolitionists to provide leadership?

Congratulations of making it to the Reconstruction era at last!

 

[Evan]

Hahaha what. This reminds me of that TL where Lincoln is moved south, becomes a Southern senator, friends with Davis and finally becomes the President of the CSA against Seward. IIRC it was done by the author who wrote “The Black and the Gray”, so yeah….

Just looked it up; thanks for the reference - Go South, Young Man: President Abraham Lincoln, CSA, by robertp6165. It looks pretty skeletal, like many timelines from that era, and not the most plausible.

 

[SenatorChickpea]

Just looked it up; thanks for the reference - Go South, Young Man: President Abraham Lincoln, CSA, by robertp6165. It looks pretty skeletal, like many timelines from that era, and not the most plausible.

That author was a notorious Lost Causer who believed that Davis and Lee would have freed their slaves after the war, because they were, after all, men of honour.

 

[Ranger Ridiculous]

Great stuff! Thanks for the shoutout @Red_Galiray !

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to dash over to the other thread to start reading part 2!

 

[usertron2020]

<snip> Did Kentucky ever produce any notable abolitionists to provide leadership?

Even if they did, they couldn't have been too successful, considering that Kentucky didn't pass the 13th Amendment until 1976! And even then, only because the scandal of having Lincoln's birthplace STILL having refused to pass the Abolition Amendment had become too much a scandal (on an international scale), too much even for the Kentucky state legislature to take while at the same time celebrating the Bicentennial!🥳

 

[Lalli]

Just looked it up; thanks for the reference - Go South, Young Man: President Abraham Lincoln, CSA, by robertp6165. It looks pretty skeletal, like many timelines from that era, and not the most plausible.

It is written with pretty similar style as other TLs from that writer. And his TLs generally lack details and these are not really plausible. But on that time TLs weren't required such quality as nowadays.

 

[Indicus]

I will say, the historical record is pretty clear that Lincoln’s father moved northwards partly because of his hatred of slavery. I’d go so far as to say that if Illinois became a slave state (as it nearly became) Lincoln would have instead been a Hoosier. I hate nowadays to call things that technically could have happened ASB, but that really would be. It’s probably for the best you chose a much more interesting POD and made a great work out of it.

 

[naraht]

Curious...

The ending chapters of the Civil War Saga depicts a number of unbreakable Slaver advocates fleeing the defeated CSA, many of them with burning hatred for the victorious North.

What are the chances of these escaping holdouts going the way of Belka in the world of Strangereal (from the "Ace Combat" series)? Would Stephens and Beauregard, and Planter Ladies like Mary Chestnut and Gertrude Thomas, or perhaps their descendants, work their way to influence in the foreign nations they have evacuated to, and perhaps instill in these national patsies a desire to war with the US in the future? Would these Lost Causers form their own Council of Grey Men, to foment global conflicts that would sweep up America for destruction, all in the name of their hateful vengeance?

"My people scattered around the globe, living in the shadows of other countries. We had a new purpose... to breed wars."― Dr. Schroeder

Feasibility check of a shadowy Confederate-worshipping Cabal dedicated to destroying the United States by engineering World Wars and superweapons to wage those wars with?

I just don't see it, for a couple of reasons.

1) With who? There are only three powers that can really reach the United States post-1865, Mexico - which would have to roll all 6s to get even close, France, which post Franco-Prussian War isn't going to get involved with *anything* against a world power other than Germany if they don't have to and the United Kingdom which knows that while it can win on the sea, Canada will be forfeit. (If you'd like to argue Brazil, go ahead, they'd need to roll 7s on a 6 sided die)

2) "Superweapons". The better weapons from the 1860s to the 1910s seem to be more defensive. I'm not sure that even with 1910s technology that a country could conquer the united states before the US could retro-engineer them. While there were a few places in the sciences that the US may have been behind the Europeans by a few years, it wasn't significant.

 

[Milarqui]

That author was a notorious Lost Causer who believed that Davis and Lee would have freed their slaves after the war, because they were, after all, men of honour.

Given how Lee became quite notorious for a certain instance of him not freeing his slaves against his honor, I find that risible.
Context: Lee's father-in-law willed him several slaves on the condition they would be freed within five years. Lee went to the judge and demanded that clause of the will to be struck down.

 

[Evan]

It is written with pretty similar style as other TLs from that writer. And his TLs generally lack details and these are not really plausible. But on that time TLs weren't required such quality as nowadays.

Yeah, I know. I joined the Board a little after that era, while robertp6165 was still writing. The quality of TL writing has gone up since then.

 

[Claude C. Kenny]

I just don't see it, for a couple of reasons.

1) With who?
2) "Superweapons". The better weapons from the 1860s to the 1910s seem to be more defensive. I'm not sure that even with 1910s technology that a country could conquer the united states before the US could retro-engineer them. While there were a few places in the sciences that the US may have been behind the Europeans by a few years, it wasn't significant.

Fair points. Then again, 19th Century conflict (ITL Civil War) vs "20th Century" (Strangereal AD calendar) conflict. I guess I just get hung up on the idea of how survivors of a faction defeated in war could nurse grudges against those who defeated them, that would trigger more wars. Belka was defeated in Strangereal 1995 (Ace Combat 0), with the last Belkan plot to engineer a world-destroying conflict in Strangereal 2019 (Ace Combat 7). That's just 24 years of angry Belkans stirring up shit in a modern-day setting. The die-hard Confederate Lost Causers ITL would have to pass on their "vengeance" to their great-grandkids and a new century, perhaps. By that time it's no longer about losing the slaves, but about "DIE US DIE" in and of itself.

 

[SenatorChickpea]

Given how Lee became quite notorious for a certain instance of him not freeing his slaves against his honor, I find that risible.
Context: Lee's father-in-law willed him several slaves on the condition they would be freed within five years. Lee went to the judge and demanded that clause of the will to be struck down.

Quite.

Embarrassingly, up until this year the site named its award for Outstanding Contribution to Alternate History after the poster, an active neo-confederate who defended the post-war activities of the Klan. It wasn't until 2017 that we took the damn stars and bars off the award!

It goes to show how far the site has come that a wonderful timeline like this can be written about the civil war without being plagued by (too many) racists.

 

[Milarqui]

Quite.

Embarrassingly, up until this year the site named its award for Outstanding Contribution to Alternate History after the poster, an active neo-confederate who defended the post-war activities of the Klan. It wasn't until 2017 that we took the damn stars and bars off the award!

It goes to show how far the site has come that a wonderful timeline like this can be written about the civil war without being plagued by (too many) racists.

Except for the ones that are in the story, that is.

In my opinion, 1 racist is too many.

 

[Tomas of Argentina]

Did lee get away with striking down that provision from the will?

 

[User_1204]

Did Kentucky ever produce any notable abolitionists to provide leadership?

Yes.

The most famous one was Cassius Marcellus Clay, cousin of Henry Clay and namesake of the boxer. Clay famously faced so many assassination attempts in his own home state that he carried a bowie knife wherever he went. However, Clay was also a supporter of colonization, and was fiercely opposed to civil rights for freed blacks. He also supported nationalizing industry for some reason.

Another was Joseph Holt, who was a candidate for Lincoln's vice president OTL and his actual candidate ITTL. He was instrumental, as Postmaster General, in getting the Buchanan Administration to finally come out against secession in its lame duck period, became Judge Advocate General of the army, and became a Radical Republican after the war. However, he destroyed his political career while presiding over the Lincoln Assassination case, obscuring the fact that there were two plots to kill Lincoln instead of one. His career is likely alive thanks to Lincoln not dying, but he likely isn't going anywhere as vice president.

 

[Bellum Se Ipsum Alet]

His career is likely alive thanks to Lincoln not dying, but he likely isn't going anywhere as vice president.

Maybe he could end up on the Supreme Court after his term as Veep?

 

[Malta]

How are things in Texas? It appears to have come out of the whole war the least damaged of the Confederacy

 

[King(Henry)George]

Ehhhhh... I don't see this as a permanent change but as a temporary oddity, similar to how the supposed legalization of polygamy in Paraguay hasn't resulted in Paraguay being a bastion of poly relationships or Queer rights. I could see young girls marrying with old men because they are the only ones that aren't mangled physically or psychologically due to the war, and indeed greater female liberation. An amusing potential trope would be: "my grand-grandaunt lived with her girlfriend her entire life but it was just because there weren't any good men in the South after the war, you see? ...Oh my God, they were roommates."

Of course, that’s why I ranked effect strength at the end. From the studies I have read, there did seem to be permanent increases in female labor force participation, women’s educational attainment and out of wedlock births. Polygamy has not stuck around in the same way and I would agree most of the other issues are a temporary blip as a result of unbalanced demographics that will go away relatively quickly.

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

His career is likely alive thanks to Lincoln not dying, but he likely isn't going anywhere as vice president.

As Mark Twain once said, there were 2 brothers, one went to sea, the other became Vice President, and neither was ever heard from again.

Funny thing is that as I think about it, it almost feels like Kentucky seceded. I think that's because there was a Confederate government as well as Union one, just like OTL Missouri with its own Civil War. So there were enough Unionists that there didn't have to be any real military campaign to retake it.

 

[xxmagex]

Kentucky is a weird situation.

A lot of what happened there arose from the regional differences in Kentucky of the time. Central Kentucky (Lexington and the surrounding area) and Western Kentucky were pro-Southern in outlook while East Kentucky, North Kentucky (across the river from Cincinnati) and Louisville were pro-union in outlook.

Due to population density and economic power, Central, in particular, and Western Kentucky came to be the primary regions postwar. North Kentucky and Louisville, being on the river were more tied into the Northern economic structure than the rest of the state. East Kentucky was not developed enough, particularly in infrastructure, to be that much of a factor compared to Central Kentucky. The pro-confederates came to dominate state government and the economic structure.

That said, a situation where the African American vote isn't suppressed will lead to a stronger Republic party postwar than OTL. That, in combination with East Kentucky, Louisville and Northern Kentucky, could act as a counter weight to the Confederates in the Kentucky power structure to lead to a different result than OTL.