Separated at Birth: America and Drakia
- Thread starter Ephraim Ben Raphael
- Start date
- Status
I do not know if there is much in the way of cultural continuity between the Afrikaners and the Drakians, either in this timeline or in Stirling's original novels.
But helmets don't exactly block bullets as much as they block shrapnel though?
I mean it is posssible, with possible eye protection even employed at times in the hellenic corinthian style.
Notice these Fuhrerreich concept soldiers for valkist germany.
Notice how they pay service to past Germanic warriors while retaining most modern elements.
I think the Draka may use this but more influenced by Hellenic/Roman roots.
Also those pelts from European animals will be replaced with pelts from tigers, lions, crocodiles, both because of the Draka's geographical location and because the romans used those animals as well for the creation of pelts. Nevertheless, like these, the Draka will still probably retain flamboyant and stylistic European style tunics, especially for parades.
Based on the whole tutelary period as a demarcation of their own history, I am inclined to think that they will still appreciate “pure” or “pre-degenerate” British culture.
They will respect it but by now then are more into Neoclassicalism and have been more into ancien regime france at this point. They probably claim that they are the "pre degenerate" british and that the ones on the isles are "feral serfs" or something.
They imo will claim heritage from the nobility of Britain, France, and Germany families.
Also I could see Draka aristocrats having European style coat of arms.
In terms of British heritage retained, I think the red tunic would be retained for parade purposes, albeit pimped out with animal pelts, neoclassical helmets, and maybe a fusion of European Currisier and neoclassical armor of sorts, as in a roman/hellenic helmet and a Prussian influenced breastplate or medals. Draka officers and soldiers are probably really egotistical and flamboyant.
I wondered about Draka fashions in the novels and the Baur short story on his website,where and when did the Draka get all the flash in the clothing,especially the male citizens?
Ephraim Ben Raphael
Banned
It's quite true that I based Naldorssen loosely off of Ayn Rand, and I did indeed poke a little bit of fun at Ms. Rand (author filibuster anyone?) but Naldorssen's ideology is explicitly the antithesis of objectivism and my goal with this TL is not to take aim at either objectivism or Ayn Rand, so much as to play with Stirling's Drakaverse in a (hopefully) more plausible way. Honestly @CountPeter's "WI Rand wrote the Turner Diaries" is a pretty good assessment of Naldorssen and her philosophy.
Well thank you, I'm glad you made an exception for my TL.
As for your idea of both sides rolling a 1... Wow, um that would be interesting. I'm thinking peace through mutual exhaustion and domestic social collapse, opening the way for one of the secondary powers to emerge as the new big kid on the block. Anyone up for a Geoist International?
Thanks, I'm glad you're enjoying it! The dice rolling keeps me on my toes.
I never really cared for the original Draka, they were basically some sort of evil caricature society (and not in a Green Antarctica straight horror way, at least that was charming), but I really like this more grounded take. The fleshing out of the ATL world is really interesting; whether the Draka-*Nazi War is against geoists or some ideology reacting against it is a question I'm really interested in. Is it wrong I want the author to do a serious Space Race timeline remixing the Lords of Creation series next
*Edit- If I got anyone's hopes up this delightful thing had updated I'm not sorry.
The problem with doing a remix of the Lords of Creation is I haven't read the Lords of Creation.
It's good to hear that you're enjoying my take on the Drakaverse- my goal was to avoid some of the usual Drakaverse tropes which tend towards revenge fantasies against the Draka or a bit too close to Stirling's original approach for my tastes. In particular I wanted to spend more time on other parts of the world and their particular stories.
So the truth is that I don't know enough about fashion to make much of an intelligent addition to this. Drakia will be entering a wave of neo-classicism/romanophilia as it reinvents itself as something other than a British dominion under the Stoker Regime. Beyond that it's hard to say.
---
To all and sundry- I am now three pages into the next chapter! It's not here yet, but it is on its way.
A literal World StateWell thank you, I'm glad you made an exception for my TL.
As for your idea of both sides rolling a 1... Wow, um that would be interesting. I'm thinking peace through mutual exhaustion and domestic social collapse, opening the way for one of the secondary powers to emerge as the new big kid on the block. Anyone up for a Geoist International?
Lords of Creation is a reconstruction of Burroughs style planetary romance set in an ASB duology where aliens terraformed Venus and Mars. Venus is stocked with dinosaurs and tribal peoples with fur bikinis and Mars actually has the oldest "human" civilization in the Solar System built on biotech but long in decline. The US/Brits and a Chinese-led communist bloc are the interplanetary superpowers, and France is mentioned as the leader of a vastly second string European alliance. Glad to hear there's an update on the way!The problem with doing a remix of the Lords of Creation is I haven't read the Lords of Creation.
---To all and sundry- I am now three pages into the next chapter! It's not here yet, but it is on its way.
I made a short-lived thread about the creation of a geoist China in OTL. As for Germany, Georgism was inspired in part by the French physiocratic economic theory, assuming there's still a totalitarian German state to go to war with Drakia could a form of neocameralism be plausible? Keep in mind physiocracy rose up in France roughly when cameralism took root in Germany, so it could be a fun twist, avoid the Nazi AH cliches, and create a four way ideological landscape in one stroke.
I must say that the Empire of Drakia is a more horrifying construct than the original Domination, because it very much feels like a regime and society that could have emerged under the wrong circumstances.
Additional speculation and questions:
-Has anyone in the TTL’s United States (or anywhere else, for that matter) written a novel in rebuttal to Naldorssen’s book? I can’t help but imagine that even if no analogue to our world’s high fantasy emerges, “dragon slaying” could become a popular US cultural motif across a range of mediums.
-Drakia has already embraced eugenics. Will the Empire be embracing any other junk science?
-It seems that a possible flashpoint between the US and Drakia will be the Middle East, given that Persia is a US ally, and New York probably won’t take kindly to any Drakian attempts to claim Arabia. Of course, given the enmity between the two countries, said flashpoint could emerge from any quarter.
-I apologize if this was mentioned already, but which country controlsi the Canary Islands? Also, does Portugal still hold the Azores?
-Now that Manifest Destiny has been completed, has the US moved away from annexing new territories? Or are there Americans who now want to continue outright expansionism (beginning, say, with the non-Drakian Anglosphere)?
-How does the “modern” system of princely states work in the Empire? Are these entities more or less left alone barring levies of taxes and soldiers to Aurica?
-The Empire of Drakia seems to have embraced (as a core value of societism), the idea of being the anti-Enlightenment anti-America. Will the USA just as self-consciously embrace the idea of being the anti-Drakia?
Additional speculation and questions:
-Has anyone in the TTL’s United States (or anywhere else, for that matter) written a novel in rebuttal to Naldorssen’s book? I can’t help but imagine that even if no analogue to our world’s high fantasy emerges, “dragon slaying” could become a popular US cultural motif across a range of mediums.
-Drakia has already embraced eugenics. Will the Empire be embracing any other junk science?
-It seems that a possible flashpoint between the US and Drakia will be the Middle East, given that Persia is a US ally, and New York probably won’t take kindly to any Drakian attempts to claim Arabia. Of course, given the enmity between the two countries, said flashpoint could emerge from any quarter.
-I apologize if this was mentioned already, but which country controlsi the Canary Islands? Also, does Portugal still hold the Azores?
-Now that Manifest Destiny has been completed, has the US moved away from annexing new territories? Or are there Americans who now want to continue outright expansionism (beginning, say, with the non-Drakian Anglosphere)?
-How does the “modern” system of princely states work in the Empire? Are these entities more or less left alone barring levies of taxes and soldiers to Aurica?
-The Empire of Drakia seems to have embraced (as a core value of societism), the idea of being the anti-Enlightenment anti-America. Will the USA just as self-consciously embrace the idea of being the anti-Drakia?
Yeah I was actually kinda surprised when they did not Annex Ireland out right
My own thoughts on your questions in order:
- I agree with the suggestion of "dragon slaying" as a cultural motif, and given the alt-fascism taking root in the US TTL I think that the pulp science heroes would be an excellent vehicle to criticize societism, featuring diverse teams with different origins, skills and abilities working together for the common good. The diverse origins thing is important in this regard, as it involves a degree of individualism that counters Drakia's idealization of a conformist caste based society.
- I imagine that the Empire will most likely embrace all manner of psychological quackery to try and condition Bondmen to love the Yoke. It's easily possible to see them go down a Lysenkoist/Neo-Lamarckian blind alley, if only in reference to the chimera footsoldiers they fielded in the novel. It would be a series of enormous failures but totalitarian regimes have a tendency to waste badly needed resources on nonsense so it checks out.
- I agree the Middle East is a possible flashpoint but honestly it could come from anywhere. Conflict with Geoist Russia or some sort of radical (neocameralist ?) regime rising to counter it in Europe are good bets too.
- I'm not sure who holds either island chain, but both have the potential to create a Cuban Missile Crisis analogue down the line.
- As in the novel that inspired the thread I think "Manifest Destiny" is a far broader term in America in this timeline. Even so, sea to sea and equator to pole, I'd guess.
- I would presume as long as the Martial Races and princely states pay tribute to the government in men/geld/resources (and tow the Societist Party line) they'd be left alone while the Empire is still getting it's bearings, but I expect that weak sovereignty to become suzerainty once the state gets its feet back under it.
- Yes! Fascism and Societism locked in a grapple to the death! Intellectuals in both countries denounce the other as "a dark and twisted mirror held up to our very souls!"
Last edited:
I think America defined itself against the British Empire for too long for that to be considered acceptable. All the more so now that they have a common enemy, really.
Ephraim Ben Raphael
Banned
Or at least claiming to be one.
Yes, now I remember! I read those books back in middle school, but forgot the title and something else came up when I searched it on Wikipedia. I have been contemplating doing a golden age scifi TL with Mars and Venus, but it would be rather different from that.
Quite possible.
I do intend to avoid the Nazi AH cliches, if at all possible. Where's your thread about Geoist China? That sounds interesting.
Thank you! That was very much the idea. My biggest complaint with Stirling's Draka (other than the obvious) is that while they work as scifi villains, they don't feel like they fit in with Earth's history and culture. Like, as an alien transhuman enemy they're viable but as a former British dominion that descended from western civilization they don't. So one of the goals of this TL has been to make the Draka make sense.
Fire away.
Oh, quite so. There are some very extensive foreign rebuttals to The Final Society, and dragon slaying is a popular theme in political cartoons, if not in general media.
A little. One of Drakia's few redeeming characteristics is its relative lack of scientific dogma and its willingness to adopt new ideas and approaches that emerge in foreign countries. The exception is science that trespasses on political ground like eugenics- other junk sciences it embraces will be similar in that sense.
Persia, Arabia, Oman and Turkey are all members of the Grand Alliance. America doesn't consider Drakia a threat any more than we considered Japan a threat in 1935, but Drakia's land neighbors certainly do. Particularly considering how they treated the Arab Muslims within their territory during the Crucible. As for where the next flashpoint will emerge- stay tuned.
-I apologize if this was mentioned already, but which country controlsi the Canary Islands? Also, does Portugal still hold the Azores?
While there are some American who want to continue expanding- you'll note America does have colonies abroad- the US has largely abandoned that. Non-contiguous colonies are expensive and a lot harder to assimilate than contiguous ones- and they still haven't fully assimilated Old Mexico, let alone Central America.
Good question. They generally have more autonomy Raj princely states, although it varies from to place. The Drakian government does very much have a presence in the princely states via its Residents, but as long as the state in question doesn't cross certain lines and knuckles under when called upon to do so it's left alone.
That would require America to regard Drakia as a genuine threat on par with the OTL Soviet Union. Currently they're just an overseas enemy too much trouble to invade with no friends and no ability to actually hurt the USA. They can threaten American allies and American interests, and of course the US wants to see them gone, but for America to be the anti-Draka would need America to define itself based on another country.
And while this is an ATL America, it's still
Metaphorically speaking.
if you do a golden age scifi TL, I hope you do mercury as well, because it always left out in golden age scifi, the same goes for the moon and the outer solar system.
It was more an attempt to come up with a plausible POD for a bit of fun but here was my short-lived geoist China concept.
I agree this Draka seems more plausible,especially if you consider how virulently racist settler societies were in 20th century Algeria,Kenyan Highlands,Belgian Congo,....then greatly slow down communications and transportation,even more if the Draka have some sort of society pre American Revolution,like a prior AH fanfiction on here with Thomas Drake/John Hawkins in 17th century Africa in middle of the Cromwell era.
- Status