This is really good! It'll be interesting to see how Lincoln changes from OTL, and how the future of America's racial attitudes change. Also, could you please index these chapters? They really help in navigating through for people who read this later.
Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
Thank you!
TTL. In OTL Buchanan carried Illinois.
Lincoln and Douglas could become friends. Perhaps not close ones, but he can potentially change Lincoln's views.
Thank you very much. Yes, I've already indexed them.
Thanks!
Don't worry, I plan to take it to its conclusion.
Thanks!
Thank you. Do you feel like marching through Georgia?
This is really good! A few thoughts...
1. I read once that Lincoln's best speech actually came at OTL's 1856 Convention and was agaisnt slavery, but because he wasn't well known it wasn't recorded. (It could have been just in 1856, of course.) TTL, it probably is recorded.
2. I believe Frederick Douglass is spelled with 2 S's - either way, it will be easier to distinguish him from Stephen Douglas if you spell it with 2
3. A black leader who rarely gets mentioned but who I learned much about in my "Brotherhood and Baseball" AH book is Octavius Catto. He was active in Pennsylvania in the 1860s and was assassinated trying to vote in 1870 or 1871. He would b very useful for this TL (and if you only plan to go up to 1870 or so, his surviving might make a good ending as if to say that things will be getting gradually better.
I have a few other ideas I can PM you if you like, they are from my attempted TL where a greater Union win at Shiloh leads to a variety of things and basically prevents some of the Indian Wars. I was going to try to continue it after nobody self contributed to it as a collaborative one, but other stuff got int he way. So, I thought you might enjoy the couple little ideas I had.
1. I read once that Lincoln's best speech actually came at OTL's 1856 Convention and was agaisnt slavery, but because he wasn't well known it wasn't recorded. (It could have been just in 1856, of course.) TTL, it probably is recorded.
2. I believe Frederick Douglass is spelled with 2 S's - either way, it will be easier to distinguish him from Stephen Douglas if you spell it with 2
3. A black leader who rarely gets mentioned but who I learned much about in my "Brotherhood and Baseball" AH book is Octavius Catto. He was active in Pennsylvania in the 1860s and was assassinated trying to vote in 1870 or 1871. He would b very useful for this TL (and if you only plan to go up to 1870 or so, his surviving might make a good ending as if to say that things will be getting gradually better.
I have a few other ideas I can PM you if you like, they are from my attempted TL where a greater Union win at Shiloh leads to a variety of things and basically prevents some of the Indian Wars. I was going to try to continue it after nobody self contributed to it as a collaborative one, but other stuff got int he way. So, I thought you might enjoy the couple little ideas I had.
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This is really good! A few thoughts...
1. I read once that Lincoln's best speech actually came at OTL's 1856 Convention and was agaisnt slavery, but because he wasn't well known it wasn't recorded. (It could have been just in 1856, of course.) TTL, it probably is recorded.
2. I believe Frederick Douglass is spelled with 2 S's - either way, it will be easier to distinguish him from Stephen Douglas if you spell it with 2
3. A black leader who rarely gets mentioned but who I learned much about in my "Brotherhood and Baseball" AH book is Octavius Catto. He was active in Pennsylvania in the 1860s and was assassinated trying to vote in 1870 or 1871. He would b very useful for this TL (and if you only plan to go up to 1870 or so, his surviving might make a good ending as if to say that things will be getting gradually better.
I have a few other ideas I can PM you if you like, they are from my attempted TL where a greater Union win at Shiloh leads to a variety of things and basically prevents some of the Indian Wars. I was going to try to continue it after nobody self contributed to it as a collaborative one, but other stuff got int he way. So, I thought you might enjoy the couple little ideas I had.
1. Though that episode is quoted in The Fiery Trial by Eric Foner, I don't really believe in it... even if they did forget to write down the speech as Lincoln said it, the reporters have memories and should be able to say more than simply "it was against slavery". I would have written a Lincoln speech for the 1856 Convention, but I'm afraid I'm not as gifted with the word as he is.
2. Oh, yes, you're right! It's with tw ss.
3. He seems like an interesting figure for sure. I'll do further research into him.
Please, tell me your ideas here. I'd like to encourage discussion and see what everybody thinks about them. The possibilities are endless.
I know, I'm working on them. But I can't have Lincoln saying that he will hang every damn rebel from day 1, now can I? Small changes first, big changes later.
Okay, basically, there was a general, David Hunter, who OTL issued an order emancipating salves in 3 states and tried to form the first Colored Regiment, the First South Carolina. It was refused due to political pressure from border states.
Now, my idea had CSA General Cleburne, famous for considering arming slaves late in the war, captured at Shiloh. I had his comments comparing slaves tot he noble warriors of Roman days a la Spartacus get out and then blown into propaganda by the Union, which caused tghe 1st South Carolina to exist, but not fight in the South. However, you could probably use this idea more convincingly.
The idea si that Hunter would be allowed to form his unit, but in a political compromise they wouldn't be allowed to enter a border state. This sounds like something a slightly more radical LIncoln would allow, as he would start to be okay with African American servicemen earlier but would still be worried about a bunch of ex-laves marching through border states.
The point is that Hunter's Colored Regiment is sent up to Minnesota in time for there to be just enough delay that the Dakota of Western Minnesota don't rebel. An annuity payment hadn't arrived in time OTL, fight. OTL, the Federal agent wouldn't' distribute food without payment, but my idea was that Hunter's troops are there and he chooses to distribute food anyway because he sees the plight as one of discrimination and that - having been denied the right to use his troops against the South - he's got a bit of a rebellious streak himself against orders so he says "let's show them by giving out the food." This distribution of food means that a move to rebel is delayed long enough for the annuity payment to arrive and for the Dakota to then pay for the food that was given out, thus allowing thigns to be patched up. For how long is uncertain, but it could lead to peaceful existence for much longer, perhaps permanently. (The idea of the TL was to make things better in a number of areas.)
I then had the idea that Hunter's group would be sent to Colorado and stave off problems with the Cheyenne, too, preventing the Sand Creek Massacre, before attacking through West Texas. (Since, you know, thre weren't any border states there.
) This would prevent the Cheyenne War, too. And, also fulfill your idea of small changes at first; accepting the regiment early instead of rejecting it but still not allowing them to fight where they could rile anything up in border states, let alone start freeing all the slaves in 1862.Okay, basically, there was a general, David Hunter, who OTL issued an order emancipating salves in 3 states and tried to form the first Colored Regiment, the First South Carolina. It was refused due to political pressure from border states.
Now, my idea had CSA General Cleburne, famous for considering arming slaves late in the war, captured at Shiloh. I had his comments comparing slaves tot he noble warriors of Roman days a la Spartacus get out and then blown into propaganda by the Union, which caused tghe 1st South Carolina to exist, but not fight in the South. However, you could probably use this idea more convincingly.
The idea si that Hunter would be allowed to form his unit, but in a political compromise they wouldn't be allowed to enter a border state. This sounds like something a slightly more radical LIncoln would allow, as he would start to be okay with African American servicemen earlier but would still be worried about a bunch of ex-laves marching through border states.
The point is that Hunter's Colored Regiment is sent up to Minnesota in time for there to be just enough delay that the Dakota of Western Minnesota don't rebel. An annuity payment hadn't arrived in time OTL, fight. OTL, the Federal agent wouldn't' distribute food without payment, but my idea was that Hunter's troops are there and he chooses to distribute food anyway because he sees the plight as one of discrimination and that - having been denied the right to use his troops against the South - he's got a bit of a rebellious streak himself against orders so he says "let's show them by giving out the food." This distribution of food means that a move to rebel is delayed long enough for the annuity payment to arrive and for the Dakota to then pay for the food that was given out, thus allowing thigns to be patched up. For how long is uncertain, but it could lead to peaceful existence for much longer, perhaps permanently. (The idea of the TL was to make things better in a number of areas.)
I then had the idea that Hunter's group would be sent to Colorado and stave off problems with the Cheyenne, too, preventing the Sand Creek Massacre, before attacking through West Texas. (Since, you know, thre weren't any border states there.
Native American affairs aren't really one of my knowledge areas, and my main sources don't dedicate much space to them. I wouldn't feel comfortable exploring how the POD affects them more than superficially. Nonetheless, David Hunter is mentioned in The Fiery Trial and the idea of him leading a Black Regiment much earlier in the war is intriguing. Thanks for the suggestion.