LA is too small to go it alone, and the US was gaining momentum. immigrants of all nationalities readily accepted the US model of gov't and rule. unless this new republic shows some major advantage, the newcomers are likely to say lets just join the US.
Why ?
You could compare the immigration to Louisiana (the whole territory including MidWest) to the one that happened in OTL USA's Midwest.
If the two countries have similar rules, what matters most is the type of life the immigrant will prefer. Basically : farmer in Louisiana, laborer in USA.
I don't see why USA would be the only one to successfully integrate settlers.
 
John,
population was too small, and it's going to be tough to build up the population fast enough to fend off a rapidly growing US. Land/mineral wise, it has everything you need. to develop that, though, you need capital, and a sparsely populated backwater isn't going to be able to get it without becoming someone else's biotch.

Another POD to get an independent LA is right after the French and Indian War. upon the transfer to Spain, the French rebelled, but were put down. Botch the put down, you could have a territory with miniscule population, but they're independent, the Spanish would be out of the picture, and there's no giant republic to the East. It's still a tough row to hoe, but you might get a country that will have breathing room of 40 or more years to solidify as a nation.

(edit: Spain belatedly tried building up the territory, but found it cost money to attract settlers. The territory didn't seriously get settled til long after the purchase and the eastern dominated US provided money for roads/railroads)
 
The only thing is ensuring the immigration is Catholic or Latin/Francophone. Perhaps refocus Irish immigration to New Orleans? Maybe have the British try and vacate French Canada like they did the Arcadians?

Well, the population of francophone New Orleans is strong enough to hold as it did until at least 1920 otl (which isn't extinguished yet, some areas of the metro have very high percentages) while being subject to the melting pot of the US. The francophone population of middle Louisiana such as Aveyolles is strong as well, perhaps the center of rural créole population as opposed to the urban créole population in Nouvelle-Orléans. Acadiana of course was strongly francophone until 1950s. Acadiana is the state of francophone that this Louisiane needs; a population of rural non English speakers who are both religiously opposed to protestant innovations and thus unlikely to interact with them (mimic Québec), this can even be seen in the civil war with generals such as Albert Mouton being afraid to join the army as he was scared of English speakers. Northern areas such as Northern Louisiana such as Shreveport, Ouachita and Bossier where only 20% or so francophone in 1850 or so and thus the beginning of the weakness of this area; which was an acute lack of a large rural population and immigration from the urbanized south such as Nouvelle-Orléans. The issue only gets worse the farther north you go as the percentages are nearly disappeared in the 1840s at the latest, with Arkansea losing its francophone population in at least 1820, Missouri perhaps in the 1840s in terms of absolute percentages and Michigan before then. Other areas west of Saint-Louis and Chicago are essentially uninhabited by Europeans.

Again, the biggest issue, is that urban centers of Louisiane where heavily populated and huge compared to its rural areas. Nouvelle-Orléans for instance was easily 45-55% of the population of Louisiane in 1860, which is the beginning of issues. A large urban center that attracts trade and also is religiously tolerant will always lean to bilingualism which then if not strong enough, leads to monolingualism for the language most conducive to trade. Thus, the imperative is after NO is adequate size, divert all the new immigrants to the north perhaps through lands grants, which would likely be what an independent Louisiane would do to begin with. My propositions for this said state:

1. Haitian rebellion goes as planned and those migrants arrive and cause the huge boom in NO, which for a fe wyears amounted to upwards of 200-300% growths in populations, the vast majority of which were either francophone Europeans or African slaves from Haiti and Sainte-Dominique. This population is perhaps the one that should expand into the countryside as opposed to later migrations. The reason for this is that perhaps if the northern areas are saturated in francophone peoples, these areas will become more and more uninteresting to America to the east and NO will be smaller and less prosperous for the Americans to actively take a shot at. However, the other way could also be true, make NO a massive trade center and population spot attracting more migrants and then through some grant system spread these peoples all over Missouri, Arkansea, Kansas, etc...

2. Have a similar revolt as Haiti but in places like Colombia, Cuba and Venezuela which turn out to be very deadly and large amounts of refugees begin appearing in the Caribbean. Areas like Venezuela had serious connections with Louisiane in this era as well, through the examples of Louisianan pirate such as Jean Laffite and Renato Beluche. These immigrants, could then be attracted to NO by its Catholic faith and wanted due to the need for settlers. These groups then could be spread out all over the northern areas and further bolstering NO's growing population, which will begin at this point in the 1820s (as otl) attracting young french intellectuals who otl would oddly frequent the city in their youth and then return and make a career in France. There needs to be a way to keep and sustain these types of people from France, perhaps as an independent nation as opposed to USA, will make it more attractive for actual residence for extended periods.

3. One thing I feel we all are missing is that there is a possibility of a move of Québécois into the northern sections of Louisiane which already have strong cultural affinity with the so called Muskrat and Missouri French populations of the northern US (the Québécois are quite distinct from the non Acadian French populations of Southern Louisiane which resembled a neo-Haiti or Caribbean French mix). Have these populations migrate or be forced into these regions and you can then even ensure the new Cuban and Venezuelan populations are made somewhat French.

4. The obvious introduction of Irish immigrants, at this point it is hoped that NO is even bigger than otl and thus a viable port opposed to New York City. At this point, Irish immigrants will likely choose this point to land as it will be a noticeably Catholic nation. Irish immigrants arguably do better here to, as political office would be more attainable.

It must also be said that this country would extend the meanings of Latino to outside of Spanish speaking Americas. Louisiane already in otl state government has a law code that without the U.S legislative authority would be considered a Latino or Latin oriented state (when you read the law systems of Louisiane, it is almost entirely French and Spanish civil as opposed to the typical English common in other US states).
 
John,
population was too small, and it's going to be tough to build up the population fast enough to fend off a rapidly growing US. Land/mineral wise, it has everything you need. to develop that, though, you need capital, and a sparsely populated backwater isn't going to be able to get it without becoming someone else's biotch.

Another POD to get an independent LA is right after the French and Indian War. upon the transfer to Spain, the French rebelled, but were put down. Botch the put down, you could have a territory with miniscule population, but they're independent, the Spanish would be out of the picture, and there's no giant republic to the East. It's still a tough row to hoe, but you might get a country that will have breathing room of 40 or more years to solidify as a nation.

(edit: Spain belatedly tried building up the territory, but found it cost money to attract settlers. The territory didn't seriously get settled til long after the purchase and the eastern dominated US provided money for roads/railroads)

Well the population was small but NO did rapidly increase in population overtaking much of the cities in the American East coast and Canada. You are right that the rural population is too small but it is not something that can be remedied, in an extreme situation. Often times on this site, there is a certain disregard for fantastic events and happenings. If most were to bet, the Arab invasion would not occur, because Byzantine and Sassanids where too populated and there would be NO way for them to hold such huge populations with a small amount, yet it happened.
 
Well the population was small but NO did rapidly increase in population overtaking much of the cities in the American East coast and Canada. You are right that the rural population is too small but it is not something that can be remedied, in an extreme situation. Often times on this site, there is a certain disregard for fantastic events and happenings. If most were to bet, the Arab invasion would not occur, because Byzantine and Sassanids where too populated and there would be NO way for them to hold such huge populations with a small amount, yet it happened.
Perhaps it is possible. Basically, we just need to increase immigration rapidly before 1840, so Louisiana doesn't just end up as part of the United States.

I mentioned this before, but what of a francophone immigration from Quebec? Perhaps the British decide to remove them?
 
Perhaps it is possible. Basically, we just need to increase immigration rapidly before 1840, so Louisiana doesn't just end up as part of the United States.

I mentioned this before, but what of a francophone immigration from Quebec? Perhaps the British decide to remove them?

Read my above post, I have that in there.
 
Perhaps it is possible. Basically, we just need to increase immigration rapidly before 1840, so Louisiana doesn't just end up as part of the United States.

I mentioned this before, but what of a francophone immigration from Quebec? Perhaps the British decide to remove them?

That would be a serious violation of the Treaty of Paris of 1763, and probably not in Britain's interests, either.
 
Last edited:
I guess that you need an earlier POD that would lead to an increase of inhabitants in Louisiana. Besides, from what I've heard and read, the majoirty of Louisianians didn't really want to go independent and were fine with being governed from France. I guess, they could be more determined and inclined to proclaim independence should the population increase.

If you're interested, it might be useful to read "Disaster at Leuthen" TL, it features an independent Louisiana Republic.
 
Last edited:
John,
population was too small, and it's going to be tough to build up the population fast enough to fend off a rapidly growing US. Land/mineral wise, it has everything you need. to develop that, though, you need capital, and a sparsely populated backwater isn't going to be able to get it without becoming someone else's biotch.

Another POD to get an independent LA is right after the French and Indian War. upon the transfer to Spain, the French rebelled, but were put down. Botch the put down, you could have a territory with miniscule population, but they're independent, the Spanish would be out of the picture, and there's no giant republic to the East. It's still a tough row to hoe, but you might get a country that will have breathing room of 40 or more years to solidify as a nation.

(edit: Spain belatedly tried building up the territory, but found it cost money to attract settlers. The territory didn't seriously get settled til long after the purchase and the eastern dominated US provided money for roads/railroads)
But how can NO defeat a Spanish force numbering ~2,000 professional soldiers? I suppose increase immigration maybe raise enough militia with some professional soldiers and beat back Spain. However if that happened how would they retain independence? British support?
 
I guess that you need an earlier POD that would lead to an increase of inhabitants in Louisiana. Besides, from what I've heard and read, the majoirty of Louisianians didn't really want to go independent and were fine with being governed from France. I guess, they could be more determined and inclined to proclaim independence should the population increase.

If you're interested, it might be useful to read "Disaster at Leuthen" TL, it features an independent Louisiana Republic.
I've read disaster at Leuthen, perhaps my favorite TL. Partially inspired by it for this post.
 
Saint-Louis had perhaps 3,000 people or so at this time.

I really do not know how to fix the issue with the migration outside of NO. It seems the biggest issue with francophone Louisiane. Even though NO's francophone population surpassed Quebec and Montreal, it was nothing compared to Canada's rural population. Further, with case studies all over the world, a urban and religiously liberal culture and community is less likely to sustain a language than a rural and religious culture.

Perhaps more importantly still, language was not the dominant marker of identity in Louisiana. Race was. A white Francophone, all said, seems much more likely to have seen common interests shared with a white Anglophone than with a non-white Francophone.
 
3. One thing I feel we all are missing is that there is a possibility of a move of Québécois into the northern sections of Louisiane which already have strong cultural affinity with the so called Muskrat and Missouri French populations of the northern US (the Québécois are quite distinct from the non Acadian French populations of Southern Louisiane which resembled a neo-Haiti or Caribbean French mix). Have these populations migrate or be forced into these regions and you can then even ensure the new Cuban and Venezuelan populations are made somewhat French.

This is not possible.

The closest large Canadien settlement to Louisiana beyond the adjacent Illinois Country was found in around Detroit, which, known as Détroit, remained Francophone-majority until the 1820s. Détroit was separated from the main body of Canadien settlement on the St. Lawrence by the whole body of what is Ontario, until the arrival of the Loyalists in the 1780s almost entirely unsettled by any Europeans.

Simply put, unless you change the history of New France so radically that Ontario is part of the heartland of Canadien civilization, the chances of any large-scale Canadien migration to Louisiana are pretty low. There is an abundance of colonizable land much closer to home, in areas with stronger connections to Canadien history than even the Illinois Country. What would be the incentive for a migration?

I suppose there's a possibility that the Canadiens might end up resettled in Louisiana much like their kin from further east, the inhabitants of Canada falling prey to deportation like the inhabitants of Acadia. I don't think it a strong possibility: The Acadians were deported for clear and specific reasons of alleged disloyalty to the British Crown, and even that deportation was politically quite contentious. Why would Britain go on to deport Canadiens who could not be accused of similar crimes, especially when this deportation would disrupt the fur export economy that was the main source of wealth? Even if they were deported, why would they end up in distant Louisiana? Overland travel for tens of thousands of people in wilderness would not be possible, and it took the Acadians more than a decade to be even partly resettled there.
 
This is not possible.

The closest large Canadien settlement to Louisiana beyond the adjacent Illinois Country was found in around Detroit, which, known as Détroit, remained Francophone-majority until the 1820s. Détroit was separated from the main body of Canadien settlement on the St. Lawrence by the whole body of what is Ontario, until the arrival of the Loyalists in the 1780s almost entirely unsettled by any Europeans.

Simply put, unless you change the history of New France so radically that Ontario is part of the heartland of Canadien civilization, the chances of any large-scale Canadien migration to Louisiana are pretty low. There is an abundance of colonizable land much closer to home, in areas with stronger connections to Canadien history than even the Illinois Country. What would be the incentive for a migration?

I suppose there's a possibility that the Canadiens might end up resettled in Louisiana much like their kin from further east, the inhabitants of Canada falling prey to deportation like the inhabitants of Acadia. I don't think it a strong possibility: The Acadians were deported for clear and specific reasons of alleged disloyalty to the British Crown, and even that deportation was politically quite contentious. Why would Britain go on to deport Canadiens who could not be accused of similar crimes, especially when this deportation would disrupt the fur export economy that was the main source of wealth? Even if they were deported, why would they end up in distant Louisiana? Overland travel for tens of thousands of people in wilderness would not be possible, and it took the Acadians more than a decade to be even partly resettled there.

I personally did not find it too plausible. However a trickle of people migrating by sea and land is worth something, especially since it something these areas did not have from Québec.
 
Perhaps more importantly still, language was not the dominant marker of identity in Louisiana. Race was. A white Francophone, all said, seems much more likely to have seen common interests shared with a white Anglophone than with a non-white Francophone.

I see your point, however, it must also be seen that Louisiane in 1860 had a much larger free population than any other US state (I believe that I am correct on this, but not entirely sure). The mixing of the races occurred and has occurred in the state more frequently than other places and that cannot be denied. In a way, it is possible for parts of Louisiane to develop similar to say Brazil, look to parts of the southeast to see an example of this.
 
the Anglos were the most rabidly racist of the bunch. French, not so much. Spanish the least of all. When the Spanish took over, one of the first things they did was ease up the French slavery laws. Spanish America has always had the highest mixing of blood. French did, too, with the Indians, although that was mostly due to only a few French females and a lot of horny French men. they certainly made use of black females, but don't think they intermarried as much as the Spanish did. In Spanish America, the top factor of social status was being from Spain (this is mostly for the contacts necessary to advance). After that, it's the amount of money you had. Black, white, mixed Indian (straight up Indians were fooked), what mattered most was your income. In Anglo land, there was a joke from the 1970's: what do you call a black millionaire nuclear physicist? A (insert bad word here. starts with a N). That attitude has been around for centuries.

IMO, if you want a mixed society, get the Spanish involved for racial purposes, but infuse it with a more dedicated educational system. the Spanish depended too much on religious control of education, who tended to depress knowledge/thinking ability.
 
As much as I love anything Francophone, this is a tough one. But, I think it can happen if France does some specific things with their population. For example, establish a penal colony in the western coast and attempt to have them move inland as much as possible. Throw some Protestant French/Germans there too, along with some estranged royals and the like. Then, try to have as many Catholic immigrants to flood there from places like Italy, Portugal, Ireland, Poland, etc. That should give you a good population for the basics. Then, just get Napoleon or someone else to create a "non-colonial Sister Republic" or something similar there to show how "free it is". The US would still be interested in expanding west, but for the time being the Louisianan Republic could prove to be a useful ally or buffer against Spain.
 

Deleted member 97083

If the Constitution fails and the Articles of Confederation remains in effect, then Anglo-American immigration would increase the population of Louisiana without leading to a Texas scenario.
 
my imagination at work ....
 

Attachments

  • Louisiana_Purchase.png
    Louisiana_Purchase.png
    317.5 KB · Views: 385
Top