So, Spain retains New Orleans as Napoleon comes to the decision that N.A is worthless. Napoleon leaves T. L'Ouverture in charge of Haiti hoping to send back LeClerc for war in Europe. LeClerc's army helps evacuate Haitian refugees, who arrive in Nouvelle Orleans and begin to settle.

. In response to this, General LeClerc declares Louisiana an independent state from the Kingdom of France, "L'Empire de Louisiana". He continues to fight small Spanish incursions and Native unrest. The U.K recognizes Louisiana, during the Congress of Vienna, Louisianan independence is recognized by the Great Powers, and Spain officially acknowledges it, realizing that they have more important territory in Peru and Nuevo Espana. Ostensibly the Emperor of Louisiana was to be Napoleon Bonaparte, with LeClerc governing as Governor-General, then after the surrender of Napoleon, 'regent'. However, after the commencement of the hundred days, LeClerc maintains his positions and launches no attacks nor issues any special decrees, as he has yet to issue anything contrary to Napoleon's legitimacy as Emperor of France and Louisiana. However after the defeat at Waterloo, LeClerc officially declares himself Empereur de Louisiana.

^What do y'all think? I wrote it up real quick, so forgive me if I missed any important factors.
What else should I include? Also, any ideas where it aught to go?

One issue is that there may not be as many refugees from Saint-Domingue here. IOTL some stayed on the island until the final year of the revolution (1803-04), after Louverture had been captured and Dessalines renewed the war against France. Dessalines was far less conciliatory towards France than Louverture had been and basically the entire white population fled or was killed after he took over.

Also, in French it's Louisiane.
 
Last edited:
Now we have an independent Louisiana (presumably a Republic), how would the U.S react?
If we still have the USA that is growing and eager for more land, then there will be a problem. The USA really wanted control of New Orleans, in order to have full access to the Mississippi River, source to mouth. Somewhere, somehow, the US is going to try to take over the place. To have an independent USA, the people of LA are going to have to be able to defeat the US; or the POD could be something along the lines of a much weaker and divided USA unable to project power..
 
One issue is that there may not be as many refugees from Saint-Domingue here. IOTL some stayed on the island until the final year of the revolution (1803-04), after Louverture had been captured and Dessalines renewed the war against France. Dessalines was far less conciliatory towards France than Louverture had been and basically the entire white population fled or was killed after he took over.

Also, in French it's Louisiane.
I could change that, have L'Ouverture killed early, with Dessalines in charge earlier as a response to that. Meaning less Whites killed, and more for Louisiana.

pardon mon francais n'est pas le meilleur dans le monde. J'ai sept ans dans un classe, mai ca n'est pas mon class préfère.
 
How would Louisiana culture evolve?
Hard to say, assuming we go on a rough outline of what I suggested for plausibility. I would imagine it would be rather similar to OTL development except with an obvious Francophone bent. There would be initially some mixture of (white) Haitian culture though pretty soon I imagine significant immigration from France and maybe Ireland. In relations to the natives Louisiana does not have the population to conquer them like the U.S did just yet. So I imagine something like a cross between cowboys and Cossacks emerging in the 'north'. Where they live in a plains area, almost steppe, defending it from a foreign horse based culture. The natives would not be happy and the white settlers would likely have to rely on each other and the government more than OTL U.S settlers because of numbers. The Louisiana government would have to promise land, essentially in a homestead act type of law to populate the country. I imagine it would be fairly agricultural with industry springing up in New Orleans proper. If I recall correctly New Orleans was one of the most industrialized cities in the OTL south. ITTL They'll be able to get coal and other resources from the Mississippi.
 
Hard to say, assuming we go on a rough outline of what I suggested for plausibility. I would imagine it would be rather similar to OTL development except with an obvious Francophone bent. There would be initially some mixture of (white) Haitian culture though pretty soon I imagine significant immigration from France and maybe Ireland. In relations to the natives Louisiana does not have the population to conquer them like the U.S did just yet. So I imagine something like a cross between cowboys and Cossacks emerging in the 'north'. Where they live in a plains area, almost steppe, defending it from a foreign horse based culture. The natives would not be happy and the white settlers would likely have to rely on each other and the government more than OTL U.S settlers because of numbers. The Louisiana government would have to promise land, essentially in a homestead act type of law to populate the country. I imagine it would be fairly agricultural with industry springing up in New Orleans proper. If I recall correctly New Orleans was one of the most industrialized cities in the OTL south. ITTL They'll be able to get coal and other resources from the Mississippi.

You had in otl a north south split between francophone Louisiane which would only grow larger over time. The northern sections had developed into different culture than both Québec or Nouvelle Orléans. The latte resembled a neo Haiti of sorts or neo Sainte-Domingue, with mixes with Spanish culture (NO had a Spanish newspaper from the 1700s till 1830).
 
You had in otl a north south split between francophone Louisiane which would only grow larger over time. The northern sections had developed into different culture than both Québec or Nouvelle Orléans. The latte resembled a neo Haiti of sorts or neo Sainte-Domingue, with mixes with Spanish culture (NO had a Spanish newspaper from the 1700s till 1830).
I wonder how the French being spoken would change? Would it adopt more English and Spanish loanwords? Native ones? More or less than OTL cajun French?
 
Last edited:
Louisiana MK.IV.png



So this is a flag I drew up. I'm guessing five states based on the previous map. I'd have put in a Crane too, but I'm not that good with Photoshop to crop out one.
 
Last edited:
I wonder how the French being spoken would change? Would it adopt more English and Spanish loanwords? Native ones?

Well there are already oddities in French spoken in southern Louisiane. Most notably:

Chaoui-raton laveur-raccoon

The infamous, this causes the most difficulty in mutual communication: ayou-où-where

Moyeu-centre du village-middle village (the word is derived from middle)

Ouaouaron-grenouille-frog

Tchac-Oiseau-bird

Plaquemine-Kaki-Persimmom

Bayou-taken from Louisiane french-même

Barbue-poisson chat-catfish

The oddity of; paistre-dollar-dollar

Soulier-chaussure-shoe

Tcheu-queue-tail

Drette là/asteur là/asteur-maintenant-now

Guetter-regarde-look at/watch

Étoufée-étoufée (la même)-asphyxiation (étoufée in the NO context is a good dish whereas it is asphyxiation in standard French, how's that for an oddity?)

And many more oddities, that can be found by visiting some of these communities in southern Louisiane.

The above vocabularies are only those shared by both Plantation French of Nouvelle Orléans and other areas in the NO metro and the other dialects such as the wider Cajun dialects or the Plantation French in Aveyolles.

In terms of Muskrat and Missouri french, these are more difficult to track. I can try to do some research.

In this scenario we will see the same development of Plantation French as otl, an r that rolls more similar to Spanish as opposed to the more guttural standard French, this can be seen in the pronunciation differences of the word rue (road). English words will also become common, or so called anglicismes, with technical terms being likely English oriented unless active moves are made to remain purely francophone in terms. So you could see, the otl use of say traîn for train.

African influences would still be around, specifically in the NO metro areas. This would especially be common as it is otl in the heavy consumption of rice and other African influenced cuisine in the area; whilst Acadiana seems more like a rural and adapted french peasant cuisine (all of which is otl). In this scenario food from Louisiane will likely become even more famous than otl and would possibly be consumed in other francophone countries as a sort of exoctic yet also kind of similar food.

Thus we have a Louisiane split along certain differences:

La Nouvelle Orléans, Métairie, Chalmette, etc... would essentially become as it did otl but more firmly francophone. That is, a neo Sainte-Domingue and one of cultural mixing, specifically of African, Spaniard and French. It also could mix a New York City to greater New York relationship with the country side around it. This is also where the urban elite will be and likely the first capital of the state.

Vermillion (Lafayette), Pont Breaux, Lac Charles, Nouvelle-Iberie, etc... would be and is the base of Acadiana, the power base of a large rural and fishing population. These areas would also be much more religiously conservative as they were otl compared to the liberal NO.

Aveyolles, Châtaignier, Natchitoches, Alexandre, etc... or the central part, would develop to be a mixing of cultures as well as the center of the Plantation economy of this state. Likely the rural aristocrats will inhabit this area as they did otl until after the civil war.

Shreveporte, Ouachita, Lac Caddo, Blanchard, etc... this is where things begin to change. This area harbors and more so then, a tiny Créole population and a medium sized Cajun population in Shreveporte/Lac Caddo/Blanchard, but these areas where quickly inhabited by Anglo settlers and was the first area to become monolingual in another language other than French in around the 1840s. The development of these areas is up for debate. However, it is a rich area and Shreveporte will be extremely important on the Rivière Rouge and Lac de la Croix. So this could be the earliest haven for migrants not staying in NO. Further if seethed before 1840 in large numbers, it will remain heavily francophone.

The Ozark mountain region could do any number of things. Most likely of which is that any migrant population mixes even more heavily with native populations than otl. The only city in the area would be Arcansea poste which is only an Indian trading village. This was by far the weakest of the francophone cultural zones. Also migrants will likely pass it by and go to Missouri.

Francophone Missouri is most known for its fur trade and merchant populations huddled in its cities. Primarily, Sainte Louis which experienced rapid growth during Spanish occupation as a consolidation of the merchant families in Missouri left from Nouvelle-France. What this develops into is at discretion of the writer. Also these colonies and peoples were the successors of coueurs de bois and other adventurers.

Further west, I am not sure of.

Détroit is under American control, but it was the other major area of Francophne inhabitants known for its Muskrat French which helped create the famous fur trade in America as a gateway city.

An interesting scenario in my opinion from a cultural view.
 
Well there are already oddities in French spoken in southern Louisiane. Most notably:

Chaoui-raton laveur-raccoon

The infamous, this causes the most difficulty in mutual communication: ayou-où-where

Moyeu-centre du village-middle village (the word is derived from middle)

Ouaouaron-grenouille-frog

Tchac-Oiseau-bird

Plaquemine-Kaki-Persimmom

Bayou-taken from Louisiane french-même

Barbue-poisson chat-catfish

The oddity of; paistre-dollar-dollar

Soulier-chaussure-shoe

Tcheu-queue-tail

Drette là/asteur là/asteur-maintenant-now

Guetter-regarde-look at/watch

Étoufée-étoufée (la même)-asphyxiation (étoufée in the NO context is a good dish whereas it is asphyxiation in standard French, how's that for an oddity?)

And many more oddities, that can be found by visiting some of these communities in southern Louisiane.

The above vocabularies are only those shared by both Plantation French of Nouvelle Orléans and other areas in the NO metro and the other dialects such as the wider Cajun dialects or the Plantation French in Aveyolles.

In terms of Muskrat and Missouri french, these are more difficult to track. I can try to do some research.

In this scenario we will see the same development of Plantation French as otl, an r that rolls more similar to Spanish as opposed to the more guttural standard French, this can be seen in the pronunciation differences of the word rue (road). English words will also become common, or so called anglicismes, with technical terms being likely English oriented unless active moves are made to remain purely francophone in terms. So you could see, the otl use of say traîn for train.

African influences would still be around, specifically in the NO metro areas. This would especially be common as it is otl in the heavy consumption of rice and other African influenced cuisine in the area; whilst Acadiana seems more like a rural and adapted french peasant cuisine (all of which is otl). In this scenario food from Louisiane will likely become even more famous than otl and would possibly be consumed in other francophone countries as a sort of exoctic yet also kind of similar food.

Thus we have a Louisiane split along certain differences:

La Nouvelle Orléans, Métairie, Chalmette, etc... would essentially become as it did otl but more firmly francophone. That is, a neo Sainte-Domingue and one of cultural mixing, specifically of African, Spaniard and French. It also could mix a New York City to greater New York relationship with the country side around it. This is also where the urban elite will be and likely the first capital of the state.

Vermillion (Lafayette), Pont Breaux, Lac Charles, Nouvelle-Iberie, etc... would be and is the base of Acadiana, the power base of a large rural and fishing population. These areas would also be much more religiously conservative as they were otl compared to the liberal NO.

Aveyolles, Châtaignier, Natchitoches, Alexandre, etc... or the central part, would develop to be a mixing of cultures as well as the center of the Plantation economy of this state. Likely the rural aristocrats will inhabit this area as they did otl until after the civil war.

Shreveporte, Ouachita, Lac Caddo, Blanchard, etc... this is where things begin to change. This area harbors and more so then, a tiny Créole population and a medium sized Cajun population in Shreveporte/Lac Caddo/Blanchard, but these areas where quickly inhabited by Anglo settlers and was the first area to become monolingual in another language other than French in around the 1840s. The development of these areas is up for debate. However, it is a rich area and Shreveporte will be extremely important on the Rivière Rouge and Lac de la Croix. So this could be the earliest haven for migrants not staying in NO. Further if seethed before 1840 in large numbers, it will remain heavily francophone.

The Ozark mountain region could do any number of things. Most likely of which is that any migrant population mixes even more heavily with native populations than otl. The only city in the area would be Arcansea poste which is only an Indian trading village. This was by far the weakest of the francophone cultural zones. Also migrants will likely pass it by and go to Missouri.

Francophone Missouri is most known for its fur trade and merchant populations huddled in its cities. Primarily, Sainte Louis which experienced rapid growth during Spanish occupation as a consolidation of the merchant families in Missouri left from Nouvelle-France. What this develops into is at discretion of the writer. Also these colonies and peoples were the successors of coueurs de bois and other adventurers.

Further west, I am not sure of.

Détroit is under American control, but it was the other major area of Francophne inhabitants known for its Muskrat French which helped create the famous fur trade in America as a gateway city.

An interesting scenario in my opinion from a cultural view.
Thanks for that great info! I kind feel like I should write a TL on this eventually (once I'm done with the one I'm already working on) Just so I could put all this info to good use! Culturally I am very excited aswell as linguistically for this possibility!

I looked up some Cajun French and I understood it much better than Quebecois or Metropolitan French. Though those differences are certainly intriguing.
 
Thanks for that great info! I kind feel like I should write a TL on this eventually (once I'm done with the one I'm already working on) Just so I could put all this info to good use! Culturally I am very excited aswell as linguistically for this possibility!

I looked up some Cajun French and I understood it much better than Quebecois or Metropolitan French. Though those differences are certainly intriguing.


Notice the modern Cajun French does not fully represent the French which has been termed Plantation French and others such as in areas like NO and Aveyolles. Those terms are just those frequently used by all dialects in the modern state of Louisiane in say 1900 and up till now. The main difference you will notice is the otl r sounds and Spanish influences in the French as seen in NO and other similar places as opposed to the Acadien influenced Cajun.

EDIT: Are you francophone?
 
Notice the modern Cajun French does not fully represent the French which has been termed Plantation French and others such as in areas like NO and Aveyolles. Those terms are just those frequently used by all dialects in the modern state of Louisiane in say 1900 and up till now. The main difference you will notice is the otl r sounds and Spanish influences in the French as seen in NO and other similar places as opposed to the Acadien influenced Cajun.

EDIT: Are you francophone?

I think modern Cajun as compared to ITTL Louisiane would see a difference in more Spanish and Metropolitan French influence and less English/American influence. Along with possibly more interestingly Native influence, because while the area around New Orleans isn't known for a large Native American population, compared to areaslike Nebraska Missouri etc. which are under ITTL Louisiane, we might see a great number of Native words enter the Louisiane lexicon, likely more than English because the population ratio is not a drastically different.

I speak fluent Latin Spanish and American English which is probably why I had such an easy time understanding spoken and written Cajun as opposed to Quebecois or Metropolitan French.

Je ne peu pas parle le francais tres bien, mais je suis dans le midi de mon septieme ane de classes francais dans mon ecole. Mon espangol a m'aider beaucoup et je parle le francais avec un peu d'un accent Dominicain.
(
I cannot speak french very well, but I've in the middle of my seventh year of high school and middle school French. My Spanish has helped me alot and I speak french with a little of a Dominican accent)
 
I think modern Cajun as compared to ITTL Louisiane would see a difference in more Spanish and Metropolitan French influence and less English/American influence. Along with possibly more interestingly Native influence, because while the area around New Orleans isn't known for a large Native American population, compared to areaslike Nebraska Missouri etc. which are under ITTL Louisiane, we might see a great number of Native words enter the Louisiane lexicon, likely more than English because the population ratio is not a drastically different.

I speak fluent Latin Spanish and American English which is probably why I had such an easy time understanding spoken and written Cajun as opposed to Quebecois or Metropolitan French.

Je ne peu pas parle le francais tres bien, mais je suis dans le midi de mon septieme ane de classes francais dans mon ecole. Mon espangol a m'aider beaucoup et je parle le francais avec un peu d'un accent Dominicain.
(
I cannot speak french very well, but I've in the middle of my seventh year of high school and middle school French. My Spanish has helped me alot and I speak french with a little of a Dominican accent)

Interesting that you mention it, while it is correct that NO had less natives, it there even had effects in naming of place names around the metro. Most famously is Tchoupitoulas (Chop-tou-las)which in itself is a very interesting word. Then further north you have Nachitoches (said like Naq-e-dish). These names are essentially French renditions of various native place names. Also, one thing to note is tch sound that was added to the language as a result, often times replacing a beginning que-. However, as natives in the north speak different languages would also be affected.

However, a tch sound or pronunciation could be superimposed across the nation through newspaper and cultural superiority in the short time of the south or base over the north. Notice too, that this is more of an NO/Créole innovation as opposed to the Cajun which already had words for many of these things.

If you do write a tl, remember to take words from natives that French otherwise would not have or that is specific to the area. For instance, to the early colonists of Louisiane, there is no reason to change certain words like the word for a book (livres), as the natives produced no books. However, the word oiseau or bird was changed to tchac as the people did not recognize the new birds as oiseau and saw them as instead unique to this land and thus used a native word for something bereft in their French lexicon.

The same phenomena can be seen in say Brazil which gained Tapua words for jungle items and plants not known in Europe; the same occurred in Louisiane.
 
Well there are already oddities in French spoken in southern Louisiane. Most notably:

Chaoui-raton laveur-raccoon

The infamous, this causes the most difficulty in mutual communication: ayou-où-where

Moyeu-centre du village-middle village (the word is derived from middle)

Ouaouaron-grenouille-frog

Tchac-Oiseau-bird

Plaquemine-Kaki-Persimmom

Bayou-taken from Louisiane french-même

Barbue-poisson chat-catfish

The oddity of; paistre-dollar-dollar

Soulier-chaussure-shoe

Tcheu-queue-tail

Drette là/asteur là/asteur-maintenant-now

Guetter-regarde-look at/watch

Étoufée-étoufée (la même)-asphyxiation (étoufée in the NO context is a good dish whereas it is asphyxiation in standard French, how's that for an oddity?)

And many more oddities, that can be found by visiting some of these communities in southern Louisiane.

The above vocabularies are only those shared by both Plantation French of Nouvelle Orléans and other areas in the NO metro and the other dialects such as the wider Cajun dialects or the Plantation French in Aveyolles.

Many of these terms do exist (or used to) in French elsewhere, but they may have distinct meanings or have fallen out of use. For example:

Ouaouaron exists elsewhere, but it refers only to a bullfrog, and not frogs in general.

Asteur comes from à cette heure (at this time/hour). This is also used in Québec and occasionally in Europe.

Piastre was the name of an old French colonial currency. In Québec it is also slang for a dollar.

Soulier is an old-fashioned word for a shoe in French, and still used for shoes people set out for Père Noël on Christmas Eve.
 
Many of these terms do exist (or used to) in French elsewhere, but they may have distinct meanings or have fallen out of use. For example:

Ouaouaron exists elsewhere, but it refers only to a bullfrog, and not frogs in general.

Asteur comes from à cette heure (at this time/hour). This is also used in Québec and occasionally in Europe.

Piastre was the name of an old French colonial currency. In Québec it is also slang for a dollar.

Soulier is an old-fashioned word for a shoe in French, and still used for shoes people set out for Père Noël on Christmas Eve.

Yea I knew of most of those cases, but it was a reference to how words that fall out of general use in another place can continue onward.

Is ouaouaron not the main word in Québec for a frog?

However, some of the native terms added to the dialect are certainly unique and something to work with.
 
I just realized Bernadotte was made governor of Louisiana. I imagine with a man like Bernadotte a Francophonic North America Empire becomes very much a likely proposition.
 
Top