WI: Francis I of France was elected Holy Roman Emperor?

In 1519 one of the most contested elections for Holy Roman Emperor occurred, the two main contenders were Francis I of France and Charles I of Spain and Duke of Burgundy. They both offered big bribes but Charles had the deeper pockets and it was Charles who won.

But what if Charles had suffered some sort of health crisis that convinced the Electors that Francis was the better choice, making him Emperor Franz I of the Holy Roman Empire?

How would history have played out with a French King as the Holy Roman Emperor in this era?
 
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/ahc-a-valois-holy-roman-emperor.407521/

This thread includes my thoughts upon how this could happen. It is quite different than your POD @Shiva , but yours works too.

Look up the TL in my signature, sometime the story will get to where he is Emperor. :p (Not trying to advertise, just showing my future thoughts on Francis I's election)

Now for the actual effects (some of which I will include in my TL)

1. Severely blunted power of Habsburgs
2. MASSIVE FRANCE-WANK
3. Coalitions against France
4. Nearly constant war (see effects 2-3)
5. If Ferdinand is still around, he will fight for the throne. Alternately, he might be put in as replacement for sickly Charles.
 
The French would move heavily to secure the whole Burgundian Inheritance (the old Kingdom of Lotharingia) and/or Italy. IMHO they can get one or the other- not both.

France with the Low Countries plus a Rhenish border would be interesting, but also mean a worse French War of Religion.
 
I don't see this getting a majority of the electors for balance of power reasons.

Which of the electors who voted for Charles switches to Francis, instead of just voting for the alternative Hapsburg candidate?

Could Henry VIII of England have been the alternative Hapsburg candidate?
 
Sorry it took me a while to reply to the thread, RL issues. Anywhere here's some thoughts and answers...

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/ahc-a-valois-holy-roman-emperor.407521/

This thread includes my thoughts upon how this could happen. It is quite different than your POD @Shiva , but yours works too.

Look up the TL in my signature, sometime the story will get to where he is Emperor. :p (Not trying to advertise, just showing my future thoughts on Francis I's election)

Now for the actual effects (some of which I will include in my TL)

1. Severely blunted power of Habsburgs
2. MASSIVE FRANCE-WANK
3. Coalitions against France
4. Nearly constant war (see effects 2-3)
5. If Ferdinand is still around, he will fight for the throne. Alternately, he might be put in as replacement for sickly Charles.

I think your prompt offers more flexibility than mine, but other than a France that managed to absorb Netherlands-Burgundy and didn't antagonize the Electors with Italian Wars, I think Francis I was the French Kingdom's best shot at ever getting the HRE directly via an election.

After all there were no 'German' candidates available since RL's Ferdinand I was in Hungary at the time (and 16 to boot), Charles I of Spain, while technically a 'German-speaker' could also be called Burgundian/Dutch due to his lands in the HRE, and being King of Spain meant another foreign influence.

At least Francis I can claim to be a descendant of Charlemagne, but he is French and the Italian Wars of his ancestors are a stumbling block.

In RL it was Charles who snagged the prize, but as I noted if there was a major health scare that happened to him, like severe illness or injury then the distraction due to his condition could give Francis the opening needed to sway enough Electors to his side to win the Crown.

As for the effects here are some of my opinions.

Yes the power of the Habsburgs would be blunted, but in the immediate term they still hold Spain and all of the wealth pouring into the first 'Empire on which the Sun does not set', Ferdinand was due to inherit Hungary, and a wide range of lands in lands in the HRE that make up the Low Countries, Slovakia, and modern Austria, and pieces of modern Germany and Switzerland.

They can (and will) cause Francis I of the Holy Roman Empire and France endless grief.

Not to mention that the Ottoman Empire won't be forming an alliance with Francis, instead they might start cozying up to Spain to counteract Franco-German power, or try for a triple alliance with Poland and England against 'the Valois threat', offering Henry VIII help seizing back Aquitaine would be bait too sweet for Henry to resist.

Then with the unavoidable rise of Protestantism in both the HRE and France will be just as much an open sore and source of conflict as it was for the Habsburgs in this era.


But it's not all bad news, Francis will be in position to make good alliances between the German and Italian lords and himself, he can probably secure big chunks of Italy for the French crown through use of the HRE's legal system, some medievalism trickery, outright bribery with French gold, and good old fashion force. And yes I believe that Francis would rather secure Italy before anything else in the HRE since it's been an obsession of French foreign policy to get back 'their Italian lands' for some time in that era.

Not to mention that with the Protestants sinking deep roots in the Netherlands would make taking 'Burgundy' from the Habsburgs undesirable, except maybe to push Spain out of their vassal holdings in Francis's HRE...

Also along with being the Emperor he will be in a position to put more pressure on the Papacy, maybe even create a second Avignon Captivity.

As long as Francis can use the HRE's crabpot nature to the hilt, he can get a lot out of it, maybe even keep it for his heirs. But if he doesn't manage that, hey he can take comfort in squeezing the HRE for everything he can get before he dies.
 
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Pretend you're a german prince. Why do you want Francis over Charles?
Because Francis will give me Imperial lands. Or let me attack Imperial cities.

Edit : here is something Francis could make.
The Franconian branch of the House of Hohenzollern had three holdings. The Electorate of Brandenburg, the Margraviate of Kulmbach and that of Ansbach.
Now, the territory of the remainders of the Duchy of Franconia ended up making the Burgraviate of Nürnberg and the Imperial City of Nürnberg, with the Burgraviate being later split between Kulmbach and Ansbach.
I may be mistaken, but if in 1519 the two Franconian Margraviates are in personal union, Francis could offer to the Elector of Brandenburg to cede to his brother/cousin/nephew in Franconia the vassality of the Imperial City of Nürnberg and restore the Duchy of Franken in the Hohenzollern's favor.
 
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Faeelin

Banned
Because Francis will give me Imperial lands. Or let me attack Imperial cities.

I'm not sure I follow. What lands and cities? And isn't the danger that a king who has a history of cracking down on unruly powerful vassals will try that in the Empire?

I think we're also assuming that all imperial princes were just out to carve their own fiefs, and had no loyalty to the empire. Clearly, that wasn't true.
 
I'm not sure I follow. What lands and cities? And isn't the danger that a king who has a history of cracking down on unruly powerful vassals will try that in the Empire?

I think we're also assuming that all imperial princes were just out to carve their own fiefs, and had no loyalty to the empire. Clearly, that wasn't true.
Check a concrete example of what I was thinking with the Hohenzollerns in my previous post.
 

Faeelin

Banned
The Franconian branch of the House of Hohenzollern had three holdings. The Electorate of Brandenburg, the Margraviate of Kulmbach and that of Ansbach.
Now, the territory of the remainders of the Duchy of Franconia ended up making the Burgraviate of Nürnberg and the Imperial City of Nürnberg, with the Burgraviate being later split between Kulmbach and Ansbach.
I may be mistaken, but if in 1519 the two Franconian Margraviates are in personal union, Francis could offer to the Elector of Brandenburg to cede to his brother/cousin/nephew in Franconia the vassality of the Imperial City of Nürnberg and restore the Duchy of Franken in the Hohenzollern's favor.

I think, no offense, that this would actually make a lot of people in the empire (the princes included) shit their pants. You can't just give away someone's property! Who do you think you are, a Turkish sultan?
 
I think, no offense, that this would actually make a lot of people in the empire (the princes included) shit their pants. You can't just give away someone's property! Who do you think you are, a Turkish sultan?
Thing is it is not someone's property. It is a city paying allegiance to the HREmperor. And allegiances can theoretically be transferred.
Besides, the mere fact that the Margrave of Kulmbach tried to restore IOTL Franken in the 1540s (and failed) shows it was still an ambition of the Hohenzollern.
This can be of course not be directly transfering allegiance but conveniently looking away when the Franconians attack the Imperial City.
 
Pretend you're a german prince. Why do you want Francis over Charles?

Read the prompt, Charles I suffers some sort of debilitating illness or injuring during the election. Why would the Electors gamble on Charles (who never had the best of health to begin with, what with his worse than usual Habsburg Jaw and 'weak constitution') in that state when he could just die soon after being elected, forcing a whole new election with the only alternate major candidate being someone that they already snubbed?

Thing is it is not someone's property. It is a city paying allegiance to the HREmperor. And allegiances can theoretically be transferred.
Besides, the mere fact that the Margrave of Kulmbach tried to restore IOTL Franken in the 1540s (and failed) shows it was still an ambition of the Hohenzollern.
This can be of course not be directly transfering allegiance but conveniently looking away when the Franconians attack the Imperial City.

This is just one example of the many strange twists and turns that HRE inheritance, robber baron wars, Imperial shenanigans, and good old fashion blood feuds that were endemic in the HRE throughout it's history.

Think of the Holy Roman Empire as being a government made by nobles, but run by lawyers on meth, and riddled with traditions and tax-exemptions that went out of their way to exist way past their shelf life until the 19th century. The end results are entertaining on this side of history, not so much if you lived there.
 
The Holy Roman Empire would have caused him more problems than anything else.It was extremelly decentralized and the Habsburghs and all their puppets inside the empire would sabotage him making the Schmalkaldic League a joke.With the support of Spain France could have done very little about it other than goin directly to war against half of Europe plus the Ottoman threat which would not ally with him in this scenario.Also if the reform happens like in OTL we may have Spain as a protestant country if Charles converts to Lutheranism.
 
If the situation is not well managed, Francis might spend the entire French fortune fighting all the world coalised against him. and, at the end of the day, France might be found in a worst position than OTL (wich is not great either...).
 
The Holy Roman Empire would have caused him more problems than anything else.It was extremelly decentralized and the Habsburghs and all their puppets inside the empire would sabotage him making the Schmalkaldic League a joke.With the support of Spain France could have done very little about it other than goin directly to war against half of Europe plus the Ottoman threat which would not ally with him in this scenario.Also if the reform happens like in OTL we may have Spain as a protestant country if Charles converts to Lutheranism.
We might see the comuneros victorious if Francis wins as Holy Roman Emperor..
 
Possible but unlikely as Charles would have to be pretty dumb to lose the support of the nobility as the Comuneros were pretty revolutionary wanting to convert Castile in a merchantile monarchy and to gain independence (the nobility was mostly in favour of uniting Castile and Aragon)
 
I do have a question.What exactly are the material benefits of getting elected HRE during this period?Does the HRE get taxes from the various nobles of the HRE?I know that the Imperial army was recruited all over Germany,but it was never mentioned whether the theoretical vassals of the HRE support this army through taxes.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Read the prompt, Charles I suffers some sort of debilitating illness or injuring during the election. Why would the Electors gamble on Charles (who never had the best of health to begin with, what with his worse than usual Habsburg Jaw and 'weak constitution') in that state when he could just die soon after being elected, forcing a whole new election with the only alternate major candidate being someone that they already snubbed?

But there's an obvious alternative, no? Frederick of Saxony, who was the Pope's candidate.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Think of the Holy Roman Empire as being a government made by nobles, but run by lawyers on meth, and riddled with traditions and tax-exemptions that went out of their way to exist way past their shelf life until the 19th century. The end results are entertaining on this side of history, not so much if you lived there.

We tend to mock the Empire as a monstrosity, but its inhabitants felt a real attachment to it up to the end, believing it preserved their liberties and (mostly) kept the peace across a huge swathe of land.
 
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