AHC: a Valois Holy Roman Emperor

The challenge, with a POD no earlier than 1400, is to get a member of the French Royal line in the Throne of the Empire. They don't have to be kings of France but they must be a legitimate prince of the blood.

My first guess would be the Burgundians- IIRC they had some ties to the Luxemburgs, if the Habsburgs go extinct in the 15th century them they might be able to secure election through a mix of bribes and marriages. Another alternative is the Anjou, either the direct Capetians or the Valois spinoff, being more succesful, keeping Naples and Hungary and springboarding onto the throne of Bohemia and there to the Imperial title. Francis I did seek the throne but Charles is too rich, too powerful and too well entrenched, the Habsburgs and Luxemburg need to be weakened enough to remove them from the running (the Habsburgs stating divided and not getting Spwin/the Low Countries/Milan/Hungary).
 
The challenge, with a POD no earlier than 1400, is to get a member of the French Royal line in the Throne of the Empire. They don't have to be kings of France but they must be a legitimate prince of the blood.

My first guess would be the Burgundians- IIRC they had some ties to the Luxemburgs, if the Habsburgs go extinct in the 15th century them they might be able to secure election through a mix of bribes and marriages. Another alternative is the Anjou, either the direct Capetians or the Valois spinoff, being more succesful, keeping Naples and Hungary and springboarding onto the throne of Bohemia and there to the Imperial title. Francis I did seek the throne but Charles is too rich, too powerful and too well entrenched, the Habsburgs and Luxemburg need to be weakened enough to remove them from the running (the Habsburgs stating divided and not getting Spwin/the Low Countries/Milan/Hungary).
Have France manage to defeat the Burgundians repeatedly before 1477 and in control of France up to the Aa, with the exception of English Calais.
The Burgundians would have much more ties to the Empire if their lands in France were smaller (ie Duchy of Burgundy). From there, either they can build a successful alliance network into the Empire (hard, France paid a lot of folk to do coalitions against Burgundy) or France will come and eat them as soon as the Burgundian dynasty crumbles.
France in control of the Burgundian Netherlands could maybe try an imperial bid, under the condition not to have antagonised the electors earlier and be seen as unthreatening. This means of course no Italian Wars.
 
Unless the HRE would be ok with a 16-year old Ferdinand I... having Charles V die young could allow Francis I (of France) to get elected in the election of 1519. Would there be any other candidates to oppose him seriously? Henry VIII I believe cannot win: the HRE does not want THAT much of a foreigner, much less someone from a neighboring country! :p
 
^ would it really matter? Charles V himself was around 19 when elected, not much older than Ferdinand would be in that scenario. IMHO the electors would still elect Ferdinand over Francis, just as they elected Charles over Francis...
 
Have France manage to defeat the Burgundians repeatedly before 1477 and in control of France up to the Aa, with the exception of English Calais.
The Burgundians would have much more ties to the Empire if their lands in France were smaller (ie Duchy of Burgundy). From there, either they can build a successful alliance network into the Empire (hard, France paid a lot of folk to do coalitions against Burgundy) or France will come and eat them as soon as the Burgundian dynasty crumbles.
France in control of the Burgundian Netherlands could maybe try an imperial bid, under the condition not to have antagonised the electors earlier and be seen as unthreatening. This means of course no Italian Wars.

Aside from the Duchy of Burgundy pretty much all of the Burgundian lands were inherited by Mary and Maximillian and eventually incorporated into the HRE, IIRC. The French pressure is a major concern, I'm not sure how it helps the Burgundians. Since the rise of the Luxemburgs the Emperor based his rule on extensive dynastic estates, and a hefty war chest to bribe the electors and support himself. The Burgundians have the lands and wealth, but they need the opportunity. At minimum one needs to extinguish the Luxemburgs (who had the imperial succession locked down until the house went extinct with the death of Sigismund) and gimp Austria, at minimum keeping her from consolidating. Even then there are candidates closer at hand- the Wittlesbachs of Bavaria, as the third greatest dynasty of the period, and the Hohenzollerns of Brandenburg by stint of marriage ties and their electorate.

THe Burgundians at minimum would need to win four votes and ideally six or seven. The three prince bishoprics and the Palatinate seem the easiest with a "Rhineland first" strategy, though Saxony is also a possibility.
 
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@DominusNovus He was. My point was I was trying to find a way for him to beat the Emperor's grandson. I have a new idea. Might cause enough butterflies that Francis doesn't get elected anyway, but Charles V is Philip the Fair's eldest son. If Philip dies before he sire heirs... a whole bunch of things are changing. Potential threats to Francis here are:
1. John, Prince of Asturias
2. Philibert II, Duke of Savoy
3. Louis II of Hungary
4. Christian II of Denmark
5. Henry VIII of England

Does this get Francis the throne?
 
@DominusNovus He was. My point was I was trying to find a way for him to beat the Emperor's grandson. I have a new idea. Might cause enough butterflies that Francis doesn't get elected anyway, but Charles V is Philip the Fair's eldest son. If Philip dies before he sire heirs... a whole bunch of things are changing. Potential threats to Francis here are:
1. John, Prince of Asturias
2. Philibert II, Duke of Savoy
3. Louis II of Hungary
4. Christian II of Denmark
5. Henry VIII of England

Does this get Francis the throne?
Savoy is theoretically still part of the HRE and I think a Wittelsbach would try an Imperial bid too. Considering they would most likely get the Palatine electoral vote, it would be easy to convince the Rhenish electors not to let Big Scary France become HRE.
 
Starting to wonder if Francis I's imperial bid needs its own thread...

I looked into Wittelsbach candidates... and this may be me being stupid, but I could not find any that seemed the right age. :p

What would some pontential ones be?

Of course, @DracoLazarus Savoy has huge advantage. I have read however, that Francis got the support of Electors with money. Can ANY of these candidates outbribe him if it comes to it?
 
Starting to wonder if Francis I's imperial bid needs its own thread...

I looked into Wittelsbach candidates... and this may be me being stupid, but I could not find any that seemed the right age. :p

What would some pontential ones be?

Of course, @DracoLazarus Savoy has huge advantage. I have read however, that Francis got the support of Electors with money. Can ANY of these candidates outbribe him if it comes to it?
Outbribe France ? No European power can IMO do that when the gold of the Americas hasn't even started flowing into Spain's pockets. France is just too big and populated. Especially if it owns the Netherlands.
 
So is that it? Kill Philip the Fair before he sires heirs...

(Ceremony?)
By the power of your superb demographics, richness, cunning, and determination...
All hail Francis I, Holy Roman Emperor. Once more the lands of Charlemagne are reunited. (Not really, but good pr)

@The Undead Martyr mind if I make a ATL based off my premise of Francis I becoming Emperor through the early death of Philip the Fair? Only seems right to ask you... since you did start this thread.

;)
 
Outbribe France ? No European power can IMO do that when the gold of the Americas hasn't even started flowing into Spain's pockets. France is just too big and populated. Especially if it owns the Netherlands.

Gold and silver from the Americas is a bit overestimated for the election of Charles V, there were important silver mines in Tyrol, the close connection with the Fuggers and the fact that Antwerpen was the greatest trading town of the era in Europe and in the Habsburg Netherlands.
Not to mention that the German Prince-Electors might actually prefer a 'German dynasty'. Though Valois-Burgundy without Burgundy proper and other the other French fiefs, might gradually be seen as one, though you would need someone with Philip the Good qualities, not Charles the Bold. Moreover it's no coincidence that the Austrian Habsburgs were preferred over the Spanish Habsburgs, which with the Burgundian Inheritance still technically had possessions in the Empire.
 
Gold and silver from the Americas is a bit overestimated for the election of Charles V, there were important silver mines in Tyrol, the close connection with the Fuggers and the fact that Antwerpen was the greatest trading town of the era in Europe and in the Habsburg Netherlands.
Not to mention that the German Prince-Electors might actually prefer a 'German dynasty'. Though Valois-Burgundy without Burgundy proper and other the other French fiefs, might gradually be seen as one, though you would need someone with Philip the Good qualities, not Charles the Bold. Moreover it's no coincidence that the Austrian Habsburgs were preferred over the Spanish Habsburgs, which with the Burgundian Inheritance still technically had possessions in the Empire.
Indeed. But the Habsburg family is now reduced to Margaret of Austria. Hence you can't get an Austrian on the Imperial throne.
 
From this thread

Tonifranz said:
How about this one.

Mary of Burgundy is a boy. Let's call him Philip. Philip marries Kunigunde, Frederick III's daughter, instead of her marrying Albert of Bavaria.


Maximilian then suddenly falls off his horse before he could marry anyone else.

That leaves Frederick III with no male heir. So like Sigismund before him, he names his son in law as successor. He also had him crowned King of the Romans (which there wasn't much opposition since at the time, he was pretty far in line with the French succession).

When Frederick III dies, Philip by right of his wife becomes Archduke of Austria, and of course, became Emperor-elect.

Philip of course, already holds Burgundy and the Netherlands.

Let's say Charles of Angouleme only had daughters.

Now Charles VIII's son Charles Orland survives and becomes Charles IX of France. He also has a younger brother Louis. But later, the younger brother Louis died.

Then in 1513, Charles IX dies of illness before he could get married. Louis Duke of Orleans becomes king Louis XII. He has a son named Philip, who becomes dauphin.

Then suddenly, the dauphin dies, and Louis XII marries, but he dies before his child was born. When it was born, it was a daughter.

Who is next in line? Well, it's Emperor Philip II (Philip I was Philip of Swabia), son of Charles of Bold, Archduke of Austria, Duke of Burgundy, Holy Roman Emperor.

So there you have it. Philip II and VII, king of France, and Holy Roman Emperor.
 
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