White Star and Titanic, What Could have Been
- Thread starter SsgtC
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SsgtC
Banned
Thank you! No, there most likely won't be, unless someone thinks it's a good story of how they fought to save the ship. Odds are that a movie about the Berengaria would be made instead. ITTL, Titanic was retired in mid 1939 and sent to the scrap yard in 1940. But the war intervened and she was aquired by the Royal Navy to serve as troopship
Perhaps the old lady will be able to sin herself some spot un Hollywood by some heroic perfomance
VIII
SsgtC
Banned
Harland and Wolff's worst case estimate for the repairs to Laurentic were confirmed. It is November, 1941 before she is fully repaired. In the year since Chuchill's Folly, all but 8 of White Star's vessels have been requisitioned either as troopships, hospital ships or Armed Merchant Cruisers.The SS Doric, serving as an AMC in the Mediteranian fought an engagment with a Russian destroyer that stumbled upon her in a fog bank in March, 1941. While the Doric gave good acount of herself, using her 6" guns to maximum effect to eventually disable the Russian Ship, she was herself badly damaged in the engagment. It was this action that finally convinced the Admiralty (and Churchill) to withdraw the AMC's from service as obsolete and convert them to troopships or hospital ships.
Despite the initial German Success in repelling the Russian attack in November, it soon became apparent that this would be a long war. Accordingly, the British Empire began calling in forces from Australia, New Zealand and India. The bulk of these forces were transported in White Star vessels. It was while serving as a troopship that the former RMS Titanic wrote her name into the history books.
After being repulsed, Marshal Tukhachevsky began to reform and reequip his forces. He also placed an ambitious, talented officer in command of the striking force, Georgy Zhukov. The new plan was to conquer and occupy areas of Germany that were historically Slavic, then offer a negotiated truce, hopefully to be brokered by America. That this truce would be only temporary was to be kept quiet. This striking force was to drive south and west from St Petersburg and capture East and West Prussia and the port of Danzig. Another force would drive north from their puppet state of Hungary along the Oder River while a third would march west and north from Warsaw with the goal of taking Stettin. The overall goal was to attempt to cut the allies off, trapping them in pocket with their only means of escape being the sea.
While the Allies were able to contain the two southern thrusts after much fighting and the loss of significant amounts of territory, the northern attack led by General roda voysk Zhukov was stunningly successful. Launching the attack on June 22nd, 1941 the Northern Force under Zhukov had driven to the outskirts of Danzig by August 30th. This attack completely unhinged the Allied front, endangering the flank of the southern Armies that had contained the two other attacks. It was decided to pull back and establish a new line on the Oder River. However, escape for the men trapped at Danzig would not be so easy.
After having delivered her latest batch of reinforcements to Hamburg, HMS Titanic was preparing to take on wounded. While not a Hospital Ship, she could accommodate a fair number. It was then that her captain, Lieutenant Mark Arnold-Forster, heard about the dire straits of the men in Danzig. Despite the risk and what had happened less than a year before, he determined to disobey his orders and evacuate as many men as possible. Slipping out just before dusk, he pushed Titanic to the limit, the old ship making nearly 25 knots with every boiler on line and the safeties disabled. Arriving in Danzig the next night, he immediately began to load as many as possible on board. Priority being given to the wounded, women and children. Due to the threat of air attack, loading was done in a record time. Titanic left Danzig with over 8,000 on board. Running straight to Kiel, she docked and began unloading her precious cargo. Captain Arnold-Forster and Titanic would make this run until Danzig fell on October 19th. Titanic evacuated over 95,000 people from Danzig sailing what the crew came to call the Baltic Express. For his actions, Lieutenant Arnold-Forster was awarded both the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross by the Kaiser and the Victoria Cross from King George VI. He was also summarily transferred from Titanic and placed in command of a shore establishment for disobeying a direct order from his Admiral. He would be promoted and returned to the sea 6 months later.
Following the consolidation of the new line on the Oder, plans were drawn up to launch a massive counter offensive and drive the Russians back to
Moscow. More and more troops would be needed. White Star would be called on yet again to provide the transport.
Despite the initial German Success in repelling the Russian attack in November, it soon became apparent that this would be a long war. Accordingly, the British Empire began calling in forces from Australia, New Zealand and India. The bulk of these forces were transported in White Star vessels. It was while serving as a troopship that the former RMS Titanic wrote her name into the history books.
After being repulsed, Marshal Tukhachevsky began to reform and reequip his forces. He also placed an ambitious, talented officer in command of the striking force, Georgy Zhukov. The new plan was to conquer and occupy areas of Germany that were historically Slavic, then offer a negotiated truce, hopefully to be brokered by America. That this truce would be only temporary was to be kept quiet. This striking force was to drive south and west from St Petersburg and capture East and West Prussia and the port of Danzig. Another force would drive north from their puppet state of Hungary along the Oder River while a third would march west and north from Warsaw with the goal of taking Stettin. The overall goal was to attempt to cut the allies off, trapping them in pocket with their only means of escape being the sea.
While the Allies were able to contain the two southern thrusts after much fighting and the loss of significant amounts of territory, the northern attack led by General roda voysk Zhukov was stunningly successful. Launching the attack on June 22nd, 1941 the Northern Force under Zhukov had driven to the outskirts of Danzig by August 30th. This attack completely unhinged the Allied front, endangering the flank of the southern Armies that had contained the two other attacks. It was decided to pull back and establish a new line on the Oder River. However, escape for the men trapped at Danzig would not be so easy.
After having delivered her latest batch of reinforcements to Hamburg, HMS Titanic was preparing to take on wounded. While not a Hospital Ship, she could accommodate a fair number. It was then that her captain, Lieutenant Mark Arnold-Forster, heard about the dire straits of the men in Danzig. Despite the risk and what had happened less than a year before, he determined to disobey his orders and evacuate as many men as possible. Slipping out just before dusk, he pushed Titanic to the limit, the old ship making nearly 25 knots with every boiler on line and the safeties disabled. Arriving in Danzig the next night, he immediately began to load as many as possible on board. Priority being given to the wounded, women and children. Due to the threat of air attack, loading was done in a record time. Titanic left Danzig with over 8,000 on board. Running straight to Kiel, she docked and began unloading her precious cargo. Captain Arnold-Forster and Titanic would make this run until Danzig fell on October 19th. Titanic evacuated over 95,000 people from Danzig sailing what the crew came to call the Baltic Express. For his actions, Lieutenant Arnold-Forster was awarded both the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross by the Kaiser and the Victoria Cross from King George VI. He was also summarily transferred from Titanic and placed in command of a shore establishment for disobeying a direct order from his Admiral. He would be promoted and returned to the sea 6 months later.
Following the consolidation of the new line on the Oder, plans were drawn up to launch a massive counter offensive and drive the Russians back to
Moscow. More and more troops would be needed. White Star would be called on yet again to provide the transport.
I would have thought she was already in them thanks to her near loss in 1912...
Seriously, though, if you're doing what we discussed earlier and are incorporating my own TL thoughts, you have my blessing... but remember: my musing was to get the Titanic existent to the present day...
Minor nitpick. A troopship is prefixed HMT or His Majesty's Troopship.....
Apart from that, does she survive much longer? The Russians must now be out after her for nothing more than prestige reasons.....
I hope that's not the case. This website has a teleological obsession with the Titanic ending up at the bottom no matter what, I'd like to see that broken.
SsgtC
Banned
Actually, no. Her near loss is more a minor footnote. It's used in naval and maritime schools as an example of what a determined crew can accomplish, but the general public doesn't really recall it.
As for her surviving to the present day, while I am against spoilers, I'm not planning on it.
As for her surviving to the present day, while I am against spoilers, I'm not planning on it.
I would have thought she was already in them thanks to her near loss in 1912...
Seriously, though, if you're doing what we discussed earlier and are incorporating my own TL thoughts, you have my blessing... but remember: my musing was to get the Titanic existent to the present day...
SsgtC
Banned
Yes, and earlier she is referenced as HMT. However, Titanic had already been sold to the breakers before the war. When the Admiralty needed shipping, they found her and Brittanic sitting at Jarrow awaiting scrapping. They bought them both. So in this case, the proper prefix is HMS, as they are not Hired Military Transports but true His Majesty's Ships.
And yes, the Russians would dearly love to sink her. That's why the Admiralty has pulled her from the Baltic and assigned her to the Atlantic transporting Canadian troops. She is also under standing orders to maintain in excess of 20 knots while at sea.
And yes, the Russians would dearly love to sink her. That's why the Admiralty has pulled her from the Baltic and assigned her to the Atlantic transporting Canadian troops. She is also under standing orders to maintain in excess of 20 knots while at sea.
SsgtC
Banned
I get that, but it's a bit different. While what she did ITTL is an amazing feat, it's not something that will really save her. She rescued comparatively few British. Most of those she rescued were German.
I personally think the use of the hatch cover as the POD is a little improbable. I think a less damaging collision -- say, give the ship 3 more seconds to turn and damage only two compartments -- would be more plausible. Also, the war with Russia starting in November is unlikely. The Germans picked June for a good reason, and we see World War II in OTL taking a rest for the winter of 1939-40. So, if for some overarching political reason the war did start in November, I still think for military reasons the fighting wouldn't have picked up until spring.
Why Titanic may have kept the ocean liner alive
That said, it's an interesting timeline. I wonder if Titanic's survival in TTL doesn't guarantee the survival of ocean liners many years, even decades, beyond their decline in OTL. The changes to the World Wars mean aviation will not develop as quickly. You have a shorter World War I, so you miss out on a year of frenetic aircraft development. The Gotha G.V heavy bomber (introduced August 1917) will probably never bomb England. Interwar aircraft will be smaller and shorter-range. Compounding this, TTL's World War II seems more land-oriented and shorter than OTL. Do we see jet engines becoming practical by war's end? Are there big (B-29-sized) airplanes by 1945? It may take an extra decade or two for big jetliners. And during that time, which brings us perhaps into the 1980s, ocean liners would have gotten bigger and faster -- as big as 90s or 00s cruise liners and United States fast, 30 knots plus.
Rail travel may remain popular and profitable in the United States, if not Great Britain, for longer. Amtrak and British Rail might not happen. The US might just get that high-speed rail network everyone wants in their TL.
Why Titanic may have kept the ocean liner alive
That said, it's an interesting timeline. I wonder if Titanic's survival in TTL doesn't guarantee the survival of ocean liners many years, even decades, beyond their decline in OTL. The changes to the World Wars mean aviation will not develop as quickly. You have a shorter World War I, so you miss out on a year of frenetic aircraft development. The Gotha G.V heavy bomber (introduced August 1917) will probably never bomb England. Interwar aircraft will be smaller and shorter-range. Compounding this, TTL's World War II seems more land-oriented and shorter than OTL. Do we see jet engines becoming practical by war's end? Are there big (B-29-sized) airplanes by 1945? It may take an extra decade or two for big jetliners. And during that time, which brings us perhaps into the 1980s, ocean liners would have gotten bigger and faster -- as big as 90s or 00s cruise liners and United States fast, 30 knots plus.
Rail travel may remain popular and profitable in the United States, if not Great Britain, for longer. Amtrak and British Rail might not happen. The US might just get that high-speed rail network everyone wants in their TL.
SsgtC
Banned
Understandable. The reason I went with that is that it's a standard damage control method and something that could have plausibly been attempted and been at least partially successful with the materials on hand. Anything else, I thought would be a bit too much hand wavium veering into ASB territory.
November was picked as a bit of a Nationalistic head nod. The Russians have always seemed to believe (or at the very least promote) the belief that the Russian Soldier performs best in the winter. Plus, they were counting on a short campaign. They had tried to achieve tactical surprise and were aiming to be in Berlin in a month thus ending the war. When that didn't work, they pulled back and except for scirmising, the front went quiet until June.
Aircraft development has been slower. For the Luftwaffe, the Bf-109 is in service, but it's first flight was in 1939 and was rushed into service by 1940. The aircraft that flew top cover for Churchill's Folly were "B" models powered by Jumo 210 engines.
Long range heavy bombers are on the table. Particularly in the US as they feel that any war they get involved in will be a long way away and they'll need to reach. They're also seen as useful for maritime interdiction and strike (more for bird dogging for the fleet and radioing in gunnery corrections). In Europe, some in Britain have proposed them, but no need was really seen for them as they have a number of allies in the continent and tactical aircraft are seen as being more useful.
The idea for jet engines is out there and is being pursued, but they're are still very much in the proof of concept stage and nowhere near a working prototype. Interestingly though, it is a collaborative effort between German and British researchers.
You haven't asked, but I know someone will eventually, Einstein never left Germany, is still a loyal subject of the Kaiser and yes, he has presented his theories about an atomic weapon. The Kaiser authorized him to conduct theoretical research on the concept only but is not willing to develop a weapon.
They're actually already approaching that. WSL's Majestic-class are 1,050' LOA, 120+' beam, 80,000+ GRT ships capable of over 30 knots. Majestic is the current holder of the Blue Ribband. Without giving too much away, liners will maintain their dominance longer than they did IOTL.
This one don't count on too much. Passenger traffic wasn't profitable for a lot of railroads in the US. And if it was, it was nowhere near as profitable as freight. AMTRAK and BR will still likely raise they're ugly faces. Just with more riders.
I have to admit, this is a well-thought-out TL...nice to see the four-stackers getting one final shot at glory! Here's hoping one is preserved!
I must say, as a U.S. Navy Damage Controlman your analysis and conclusions are spot on. I will have to admit that I have never looked at the Titanic's situation from the standpoint of my own profession. In hindsight and having read your timeline and analysis I will admit that this ship may very well have been save-able, which makes her loss and all the needless deaths all the more tragic.
Understanding your ship and how it will react to any given damage control situation is the first key factor in keeping her afloat. Secondly, you need to have the right personnel, the right tools, and the right equipment. Progressive flooding (the passage of water from one compartment to the next) will sink a ship every time and IOTL this is exactly what sank the Titanic. ITTL you managed to sidestep this and guess what? She still floats. Bravo on a job well done!
IX
SsgtC
Banned
Following an agreement with the United States to assume responsibility for the defense of Britain's, France's and the Netherland's Asian colonies, the vessels of White Star were called upon to begin transporting US Forces from the United States to Singapore, Hong Kong, French Indochina, New Zealand, Australia and the Dutch East Indies. Upon the arrival of these forces, White Star's ships then loaded the British, French, Australian, New Zealand and Dutch forces and brought them to Europe.
American forces upon arrival in Singapore were appalled at the State of the defenses. General Dwight D Eisenhower, the Commanding Officer of the United States Army Far East, immediately set about strengthening the defenses. The report he sent to the War Department was scathing of Field Marshal Harold Alexander and was a key factor is his being denied a major field command and relegated to a staff position in London for the remainder of the war when the letter was "accidentally" given to the British Military attaché.
Following the launch of the Spring Offensive in which 10 Army Groups hurled themselves into the Russian lines, White Star Vessels were primarily engaged in evacuation of wounded with most of the vessels serving as temporary Hospital Ships. While successful, the Spring Offensive was extremely costly. The Allies total casualties amounted to nearly 600,000. The biggest loss for the British was General Bernard Montgomery, who was killed in an air attack on his headquarters.
In the South, another 5 Army Groups attacked along the Danube River and pushed east to Odessa and then north up the Dnieper River to link up with the Central Attack. A further 4 Armies moved south to secure the coast of the Adriatic Sea and the flanks of the Southern Strike Force. Upon reaching Kiev, a peace proposal was sent to Moscow. All Russian forces would be kept east of the Dnieper River and north of the Dvina River. The lands west and south of those rivers were to be broken off from Russia and made into border states of Poland and the Ukraine. The offer was initially refused. However, the subsequent Russian counterattack was soon crushed by Generalfeldmarschall Walter Model. It was after this that the Government of Alexander Kolchak grudgingly agreed to the treaty terms. The War of the Eighth Coalition came to an end on February 15th, 1943.
After the War, White Star began transporting forces home. In a repeat of the end of the Great War, many of the soldiers were going home with a new bride. By June, 1945 White Star's ships had been released from War Service. The Doric, Regina and Pittsburgh were all retired from service as being completely worn out and sold to Japan for scrap. The long serving Aquitania was also sent to the breakers as she was suffering from extensive structural defects. The new liner Mauritania was finally introduced to service and Majestic and Laurentic resumed their weekly express sailings from Southampton to New York. The Caronia and Britannia soon began sailing from Liverpool and London to Boston and Philadelphia. The Oceanic-class ships also resumed their prewar careers.
Of the Olympic-class ships, Olympic, now 34 years old, was decommissioned and scrapped beginning in 1946. Britannic was kept in reserve with the Royal Navy until 1950 when she too was sent to the breakers. Titanic, however, presented a conundrum. Due to her fame in running the "Baltic Express," there was a strong push to preserve her as a museum ship. However, negotiations broke down over several key points. The first being that, prior to her acquisition by the RN, all her interior fittings had been removed and sold. Therefore, it was impossible to restore her to her prewar condition as one of the most luxurious liners afloat. As a troop ship, she had been kept bare to reduce the risk of fire onboard and to fit as many as possible on board. The second major issue was where to dock her if she were to be preserved. She was far to large to dock at London. The next logical port was Southampton, where she spent the majority of her career sailing out of. But without restoring her to her former glory, this too was ruled out. The third option was Portsmouth, home of the Royal Navy. But the Navy refused the dock space needed. The final option was Danzig, who's people pushed strongly for the ship that saved them to be displayed there. But the idea of transferring the great ship to a foreign power was anathema to the people of Great Britain. In the end, Titanic languished, tied up in Portsmouth until 1952. Slowly deteriorating till the decision was made to tow the Grand Old Lady to Japan and scrap her.
On April 10th, 1952, 40 years to the day from when she departed on her maiden voyage, Titanic departed England for the final time. Temporary piping had been connected to the great ship's whistle and Titanic blew one last, forlorn blast as she was pulled away from the dock. Titanic, however, refused to go quietly into the night. 30 days into her tow, a storm came up and snapped the ship's tow lines. Despite all efforts being made to resecure the tow, Titanic eventually foundered on May 11th, 1952 going down by the stern in 3,000 feet of water. All those who heard of it agreed that this was a far more fitting end to the Grand Ship than the breaker's torch. That she should rest in peace in her one true home, the sea.
American forces upon arrival in Singapore were appalled at the State of the defenses. General Dwight D Eisenhower, the Commanding Officer of the United States Army Far East, immediately set about strengthening the defenses. The report he sent to the War Department was scathing of Field Marshal Harold Alexander and was a key factor is his being denied a major field command and relegated to a staff position in London for the remainder of the war when the letter was "accidentally" given to the British Military attaché.
Following the launch of the Spring Offensive in which 10 Army Groups hurled themselves into the Russian lines, White Star Vessels were primarily engaged in evacuation of wounded with most of the vessels serving as temporary Hospital Ships. While successful, the Spring Offensive was extremely costly. The Allies total casualties amounted to nearly 600,000. The biggest loss for the British was General Bernard Montgomery, who was killed in an air attack on his headquarters.
In the South, another 5 Army Groups attacked along the Danube River and pushed east to Odessa and then north up the Dnieper River to link up with the Central Attack. A further 4 Armies moved south to secure the coast of the Adriatic Sea and the flanks of the Southern Strike Force. Upon reaching Kiev, a peace proposal was sent to Moscow. All Russian forces would be kept east of the Dnieper River and north of the Dvina River. The lands west and south of those rivers were to be broken off from Russia and made into border states of Poland and the Ukraine. The offer was initially refused. However, the subsequent Russian counterattack was soon crushed by Generalfeldmarschall Walter Model. It was after this that the Government of Alexander Kolchak grudgingly agreed to the treaty terms. The War of the Eighth Coalition came to an end on February 15th, 1943.
After the War, White Star began transporting forces home. In a repeat of the end of the Great War, many of the soldiers were going home with a new bride. By June, 1945 White Star's ships had been released from War Service. The Doric, Regina and Pittsburgh were all retired from service as being completely worn out and sold to Japan for scrap. The long serving Aquitania was also sent to the breakers as she was suffering from extensive structural defects. The new liner Mauritania was finally introduced to service and Majestic and Laurentic resumed their weekly express sailings from Southampton to New York. The Caronia and Britannia soon began sailing from Liverpool and London to Boston and Philadelphia. The Oceanic-class ships also resumed their prewar careers.
Of the Olympic-class ships, Olympic, now 34 years old, was decommissioned and scrapped beginning in 1946. Britannic was kept in reserve with the Royal Navy until 1950 when she too was sent to the breakers. Titanic, however, presented a conundrum. Due to her fame in running the "Baltic Express," there was a strong push to preserve her as a museum ship. However, negotiations broke down over several key points. The first being that, prior to her acquisition by the RN, all her interior fittings had been removed and sold. Therefore, it was impossible to restore her to her prewar condition as one of the most luxurious liners afloat. As a troop ship, she had been kept bare to reduce the risk of fire onboard and to fit as many as possible on board. The second major issue was where to dock her if she were to be preserved. She was far to large to dock at London. The next logical port was Southampton, where she spent the majority of her career sailing out of. But without restoring her to her former glory, this too was ruled out. The third option was Portsmouth, home of the Royal Navy. But the Navy refused the dock space needed. The final option was Danzig, who's people pushed strongly for the ship that saved them to be displayed there. But the idea of transferring the great ship to a foreign power was anathema to the people of Great Britain. In the end, Titanic languished, tied up in Portsmouth until 1952. Slowly deteriorating till the decision was made to tow the Grand Old Lady to Japan and scrap her.
On April 10th, 1952, 40 years to the day from when she departed on her maiden voyage, Titanic departed England for the final time. Temporary piping had been connected to the great ship's whistle and Titanic blew one last, forlorn blast as she was pulled away from the dock. Titanic, however, refused to go quietly into the night. 30 days into her tow, a storm came up and snapped the ship's tow lines. Despite all efforts being made to resecure the tow, Titanic eventually foundered on May 11th, 1952 going down by the stern in 3,000 feet of water. All those who heard of it agreed that this was a far more fitting end to the Grand Ship than the breaker's torch. That she should rest in peace in her one true home, the sea.
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