White Star and Titanic, What Could have Been

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SsgtC

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Ogrebear said:
My suggestion to the Board would be to invest in the new Airliners- indeed set up a British Airline which 'flys in style' with as luxerious airliners as possible, and top line 'White Star' service. Like Brunel's old Great Western Lines, Have offers for train, plane, and ship service- 'fly out for your meeting/shopping, travel back in style'.

I would be interested how a surviving shipping industry/late aircraft development has effected the UK and its place in the world. The Jet engine was a British invention, where are the Comets? Who is in charge?

Also what's going on with Helicopter devolpment? Rockets? etc please...
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Not sure I'll have White Star itself set up an airline, though some sort of commercial agreement is a definite possibility.

The Comet itself was butterflied away. However, in developing they're new aircraft, Boeing got significant design help from de Havilland. (See the engines buried in the wing root). As for the overall state of the UK's aviation industry, it's stronger than OTL. The US, UK and German Empire cooperate closely in aircraft development. Not to the point where they fly the same aircraft, but to where you can see design influences. Jet technology ITTL was actually one of the technology transfers that the US got for protecting the far East during the war (along with RADAR and early nuclear research).

Helicopters were developed pretty much as OTL. Development is a bit slower. The Bell UH-1 entered production in 1964 verses OTL 1960. Rockets exist, though manned spaceflight is still quite some time away. No Cold War as we know it. Russia is causing some problems where they can (China, French Indochina, Burma, India, etc), but nothing to the scale of OTL. Missile tech has been developed, tactical weapons (AAMs, ASMs, SAMs, SSMs are actually sightly ahead of OTL). Ballistic missile development is behind (not as pressing a need).

Nuclear weapons have been developed, but more as "proof of concept" than as an actual working weapon system (joint US, UK, GE effort). And outside of a few test examples, no nation is known to maintain them in their arsenal.
 
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Hood1944 said:
Yes, I can see the airliners being considered a sort of secondary mode of transport, or at least advertised as that, with the liners being considered the stylish way to go.
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Currently, that's exactly how it's being handled by the shipping lines. Plus, air travel is still hideously expensive compared to taking a liner.
 
SsgtC

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Hood1944 said:
Fair enough.
But yes, I see White Star setting up white Star airlines and having everything running in tandem.
I feel that of they advertise the Liners correctly, they can keep going just fine.
If I had the money, I'd much rather a trip on a luxurious ocean liner than a cramped Jet.
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Not sure about their own airline, but a cooperative agreement is practically a certainty
 

fscott

In OTL Pan Am was known for luxury with a pretty high standard so white star would be giving them a run for their money but it's not going to be the walk in the park that did some people think it will be. Also I know airplane development was delayed but prior to get they were using Turbo Jet or turboprop planes that Rivals the original jet as far as capabilities not near as comfortable have they got butterflied away? None of these are complaints or criticisms just questions. For a while the QE2 and Concorde had a similar deal with each other where you could take the ship one way and the plane the other great story
 
SsgtC

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fscott said:
In OTL Pan Am was known for luxury with a pretty high standard so white star would be giving them a run for their money but it's not going to be the walk in the park that did some people think it will be. Also I know airplane development was delayed but prior to get they were using Turbo Jet or turboprop planes that Rivals the original jet as far as capabilities not near as comfortable have they got butterflied away? None of these are complaints or criticisms just questions. For a while the QE2 and Concorde had a similar deal with each other where you could take the ship one way and the plane the other great story
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No, turboprops were not butterflied. ITTL, the Boeing 377 is a turboprop aircraft with (barely) enough range to fly from NY to London. But it's hideously expensive. A Tourist class one way ticket is more expensive than a round trip ticket on White Star. You need something the size of a 747 to make long distance travel affordable (you need the size to drive down seat-mile costs). What White Star had realised is that the same ppl who can afford a First Class ticket with them, can also afford a First Class ticket on a jet. And the Jet gets you from NY to London in under 7 hours. While even the fastest liner will take 3 days. They aren't in danger of losing their Tourist Class passengers. They're in danger of losing their high paying First Class passengers.
 

fscott

SsgtC said:
No, turboprops were not butterflied. ITTL, the Boeing 377 is a turboprop aircraft with (barely) enough range to fly from NY to London. But it's hideously expensive. A Tourist class one way ticket is more expensive than a round trip ticket on White Star. You need something the size of a 747 to make long distance travel affordable (you need the size to drive down seat-mile costs). What White Star had realised is that the same ppl who can afford a First Class ticket with them, can also afford a First Class ticket on a jet. And the Jet gets you from NY to London in under 7 hours. While even the fastest liner will take 3 days. They aren't in danger of losing their Tourist Class passengers. They're in danger of losing their high paying First Class passengers.
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I never thought of it from that angle and yes you're right it takes high volume that's why 747 brought flying to the average person.
 
SsgtC

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fscott said:
I never thought of it from that angle and yes you're right it takes high volume that's why 747 brought flying to the average person.
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Exactly, flying is still the province of the upper middle class and wealthy. Especially for long distance fights. Though for shorter fights it is sightly more accessible. Though trains are still much cheaper. And nearly as fast. In both Europe and the US, passenger rail routinely travels at between 100 and 120 MPH. In some cases faster. Not true high speed, as they slow for curves and grades, but considerable faster than OTL 50s and 60s
 
Hood

Hood

SsgtC said:
No, turboprops were not butterflied. ITTL, the Boeing 377 is a turboprop aircraft with (barely) enough range to fly from NY to London. But it's hideously expensive. A Tourist class one way ticket is more expensive than a round trip ticket on White Star. You need something the size of a 747 to make long distance travel affordable (you need the size to drive down seat-mile costs). What White Star had realised is that the same ppl who can afford a First Class ticket with them, can also afford a First Class ticket on a jet. And the Jet gets you from NY to London in under 7 hours. While even the fastest liner will take 3 days. They aren't in danger of losing their Tourist Class passengers. They're in danger of losing their high paying First Class passengers.
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Still, I see First class passengers being convinced that Liners are the way to go, and if you want to travel in style, travel on a liner, etc
 
SsgtC

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Hood1944 said:
Still, I see First class passengers being convinced that Liners are the way to go, and if you want to travel in style, travel on a liner, etc
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And they are pushing that narrative. But look up some of the advertising from Pan Am. They made a point of advertising that flying with them was just as stylish as going by liner. But got you there a whole lot faster.
 

Eckener

Just discovered this today, and I have to say I as someone who grew up fascinated by the Titanic, I absolutely love this TL, and will be following to see how you proceed.

I thought the end of the original Titanic was quite fitting, though sad to see her go (but better go down than be scrapped).

I *may* have squealed a little when I saw you introduce the new Titanic.

And as others have said, I love how the butterflies have worked here, getting TR reelected and changing WWI and the Russian Revolution and then WWII. It's great.

The airship nerd inside me wonders what niche areas those crafts fill. Without the tragic disaster of the Hindenburg, and the earlier problems caused by the harshness of Versailles, it is plausible that DELAG and Luftschiffbau Zeppelin would have remained going concerns into the 1930s and 1940s, and while weather is a major prohibiting factor, I could at least see airships having a nice niche in the tourist trade. Just a thought.

Keep up the good work and I look forward to seeing what happens with interest :)
 
Hood

Hood

SsgtC said:
And they are pushing that narrative. But look up some of the advertising from Pan Am. They made a point of advertising that flying with them was just as stylish as going by liner. But got you there a whole lot faster.
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Have you seen the new images found of Titanic?
I have some here.
That one with Titanic and Olympic was one of them.
kh_59.jpg

image (1).jpg

images (48).jpg

I've a few more I'll post tm
 
SsgtC

SsgtC

Banned
Eckener said:
Just discovered this today, and I have to say I as someone who grew up fascinated by the Titanic, I absolutely love this TL, and will be following to see how you proceed.

I thought the end of the original Titanic was quite fitting, though sad to see her go (but better go down than be scrapped).

I *may* have squealed a little when I saw you introduce the new Titanic.

And as others have said, I love how the butterflies have worked here, getting TR reelected and changing WWI and the Russian Revolution and then WWII. It's great.

The airship nerd inside me wonders what niche areas those crafts fill. Without the tragic disaster of the Hindenburg, and the earlier problems caused by the harshness of Versailles, it is plausible that DELAG and Luftschiffbau Zeppelin would have remained going concerns into the 1930s and 1940s, and while weather is a major prohibiting factor, I could at least see airships having a nice niche in the tourist trade. Just a thought.

Keep up the good work and I look forward to seeing what happens with interest :)
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Thank you! As for your question about airships. They pretty much are a niche market. Useful in rough terrain where your can't get a fixed wing aircraft in and can go higher than a helicopter. Some areas in South America rely on them for supply. But even that niche is almost dead as Jets come into play and helicopters convert from piston to turbine, they can work higher. Outside of that, they're used in some small tourist operations. Nothing major as without reliable weather forecasting they're very vulnerable.
 

Eckener

SsgtC said:
Thank you! As for your question about airships. They pretty much are a niche market. Useful in rough terrain where your can't get a fixed wing aircraft in and can go higher than a helicopter. Some areas in South America rely on them for supply. But even that niche is almost dead as Jets come into play and helicopters convert from piston to turbine, they can work higher. Outside of that, they're used in some small tourist operations. Nothing major as without reliable weather forecasting they're very vulnerable.
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Quite welcome! Like I said, looking to see how things go.

As far as your comment on airships go, you're not wrong. It's unlikely that they would have lasted, but they likely would have had a better run than OTL. :)
 
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