Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

[User_1204]

I must confess, I do not fully remember what happened to him ITTL, but as a suggestion for a potential non-Grant president for 1868: How about Salmon P. Chase?

Chase, a father of the anti-slavery movement, a radical and supporter of black suffrage, and a man with presidential ambitions his entire life, could win highest office in 1868 and finally achieve what he had dedicated his entire life to seeing.

Chase was also a Democrat economically. For Reconstruction to succeed, I’d argue America would need an anti-racist party representing classically liberal interests as well as protectionist interests.

Of course, even if Chase remains a Republican throughout his term, he was old and sick. He died in 1873 OTL, and the stresses of the presidency combined with his satisfaction of being president may be enough to convince him not to run for a second term. This could flow well into a Grant presidency.

 

[PRM]

I must confess, I do not fully remember what happened to him ITTL, but as a suggestion for a potential non-Grant president for 1868: How about Salmon P. Chase?

Chase, a father of the anti-slavery movement, a radical and supporter of black suffrage, and a man with presidential ambitions his entire life, could win highest office in 1868 and finally achieve what he had dedicated his entire life to seeing.

Chase was also a Democrat economically. For Reconstruction to succeed, I’d argue America would need an anti-racist party representing classically liberal interests as well as protectionist interests.

Of course, even if Chase remains a Republican throughout his term, he was old and sick. He died in 1873 OTL, and the stresses of the presidency combined with his satisfaction of being president may be enough to convince him not to run for a second term. This could flow well into a Grant presidency.

I like this idea

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Thanks that is a good question of how To Kill a Mockingbird would go but that's way in the future and there have been a lot of butterflies. It's always fun to come up with scenarios for what TTL's equivalent of Gone With The Wind would be. It really in my sense would still be a coming of age story but instead of just it being Scarlett having to keep out of poverty, it's about her learning that the old live that she used to live as the daughter of a planter was wrong.
If I was writing Gone With the Wind I would make it that in the beginning of the book, Scarlett is wilfully ignorant to the horror of slavery but as the story goes and some discussions with Rhett who would represent the poor class in the story and revelations that some of mammy's children are her half-siblings from her father, well you know... That caused her to really reflect on southern society and just really come to grasp the sheer hypocrisy of it and the snootyness and the bigotry and and near the end of the book of mid way section she you know has the conversation with the planter class character let's say it's the equivalent of Ashley and she admits for the first time to him and herself that "The way of the old South was wrong." And after the conversation as she's walking home she runs by some union soldiers including some African American soldier's and she tells them " God Bless you. " to kinda signify that she really has changed from that spoiled little girl that we see in the first part of the book to the woman she has now become.

Yes,and to prove even more that she's moving into modern times, the movie (never read the book) shows Scarlett's daughter being saved after falling from her horse by a black doctor with that new-fangled antiseptic surgery.

Never mind that it probably wouldn't have spread there yet - you know HOllywood and history. (though depending on the year it might just be possible.)

 

[PRM]

Yes,and to prove even more that she's moving into modern times, the movie (never read the book) shows Scarlett's daughter being saved after falling from her horse by a black doctor with that new-fangled antiseptic surgery.

Never mind that it probably wouldn't have spread there yet - you know HOllywood and history. (though depending on the year it might just be possible.)

Oh yes I love that Idea. I was also thinking for the ending it would show Rhett and Scarlett having more children like at least three sons and two more daughters and they live on what used to be Tara except now it's just land shared between Scarlett and Mammy's family, who is one of three types of families TTL's equivalence of Gone With The End focuses on. It's already been said but just to reiterate Scarlett's family would represent the planter class, Mammy's would represent the slaves who would become free, and Rhett would represent the poor man, the southern commoners.

 

[President Earl Warren]

Tbh, I fundamentally expect the heart of Gone with the Wind to remain the same. None of the things within it would not be impossible ITTL, including the Lost Cause stuff. Maybe more motions to Slavery Bad, but you have a saftey valve of who to blame it on. Expect a fanatical confederate officer at Atlanta and a noble Breckinridge aligned one later on.

 

[PRM]

Tbh, I fundamentally expect the heart of Gone with the Wind to remain the same. None of the things within it would not be impossible ITTL, including the Lost Cause stuff. Maybe more motions to Slavery Bad, but you have a saftey valve of who to blame it on. Expect a fanatical confederate officer at Atlanta and a noble Breckinridge aligned one later on.

I respectfully disagree. I think it ITTL Gone With The End has the most potential to be the most different. Especially since most likely it wouldn't be written by the same author who let's say has been butterflied away and it's written by a different person who has a whole new outlook on the south,

 

[President Earl Warren]

I respectfully disagree. I think it ITTL Gone With The End has the most potential to be the most different. Especially since most likely it wouldn't be written by the same author who let's say has been butterflied away and it's written by a different person who has a whole new outlook on the south,

Then it’s a diffrent book entirely, not gone with the wind.

 

[PRM]

Then it’s a diffrent book entirely, not gone with the wind.

Exactly the point it's a different type of book from OTL Gone With The Wind where instead of romanticizing the south it's an indictment of the old south

 

[President Earl Warren]

Exactly the point it's a different type of book from OTL Gone With The Wind where instead of romanticizing the south it's an indictment of the old south

Then call it a different name, with different characters. Like the only one who seems remotely similar to her actual book charecter seems to be Scarlett and even then, not particularly, espeically in the divergent arcs.

 

[PRM]

Then call it a different name, with different characters. Like the only one who seems remotely similar to her actual book charecter seems to be Scarlett and even then, not particularly, espeically in the divergent arcs.

Obviously it would have a different name and characters I just been calling by OTL names just to reference who the character is supposed to represent as TTL's equivalents. Right now I don't know what the title would be or characters would be called I'm just using the title and the names as reference points.

 

[PRM]

Anybody want to come up with a different title for Gone With The Wind ITTL be my guest.

 

[Born in the USSA]

Then call it a different name, with different characters. Like the only one who seems remotely similar to her actual book charecter seems to be Scarlett and even then, not particularly, espeically in the divergent arcs.

Why? Allohistorical allusions are fun in TLs

Anybody want to come up with a different title for Gone With The Wind ITTL be my guest.

Dust in the Wind

 

[PRM]

Why? Allohistorical allusions are fun in TLs

Dust in the Wind

Oh h Dust In The Wind I like it. May be a dumb question but how'd you come up with that?

 

[Born in the USSA]

Oh h Dust In The Wind I like it. May be a dumb question but how'd you come up with that?

It was the first thing that came to mind when I read your comment, I think I was free-associating with WMIT? (where the mansion burns to the ground at the end) but I'm not sure if that's a direct reference to it or a mandela effect hallucination.

 

[PRM]

It was the first thing that came to mind when I read your comment, I think I was free-associating with WMIT? (where the mansion burns to the ground at the end) but I'm not sure if that's a direct reference to it or a mandela effect hallucination.

Well we've got a potential title now we just need names for the main characters

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Oh h Dust In The Wind I like it. May be a dumb question but how'd you come up with that?

Also somewhat of a Biblical reference with people being likened to that, and the emptiness of things; Ecclesiastes and "all is vanity" (emptiness)."

Plus of course a famous song from the '60s, I think, though I'm not very good with performer names. (Looks it up,sees it's from 1977,and is glad he only was a decade off becasue he once heard "You Had A Bad Day" and coulf havesworn the 2000s song was one of those optimistic, "life will get better" type of songsthat was written in the '70s.)

But I think namescan bepretty similar. Just change a letter or two.

 

[PRM]

Also somewhat of a Biblical reference with people being likened to that, and the emptiness of things; Ecclesiastes and "all is vanity" (emptiness)."

Plus of course a famous song from the '60s, I think, though I'm not very good with performer names. (Looks it up,sees it's from 1977,and is glad he only was a decade off becasue he once heard "You Had A Bad Day" and coulf havesworn the 2000s song was one of those optimistic, "life will get better" type of songsthat was written in the '70s.)

Oh yeah then it definitely fits as the title as by the end of the story "Scarlett" or whatever her name will be will lose her vanity.

 

[Alexander Sturrn]

So ends the American Civil War.

The Confederacy, along with the Slavocracy that started it and the abominable System of Slavery it fought to perpetuate, dies amidst the ruins and ashes of the South, bleeding out in the dirt, not with some grand display of honor and glory, but with a pained, pathetic whimper.

A suitably ignominious end for such a detestable cause.

But the Future lies ahead, vast and unknown. The Republicans, Blacks and Radical Abolitionists won their victory. Hopefully, they can hold onto it.

@Red_Galiray, thank you so much for this amazing Timeline that I thoroughly enjoyed reading. I look forward to see where the Union's Journey through this World will take it next, now that it has withstood it's greatest challenge yet.

It won't be easy...but in the end, may liberty prevail, let Justice be done...

And may that star-spangled banner yet wave/
Over the land of the free and the home of the brave.

 

[Judge Dredd34]

So ends the American Civil War.

The Confederacy, along with the Slavocracy that started it and the abominable System of Slavery it fought to perpetuate, dies amidst the ruins and ashes of the South, bleeding out in the dirt, not with some grand display of honor and glory, but with a pained, pathetic whimper.

A suitably ignominious end for such a detestable cause.

But the Future lies ahead, vast and unknown. The Republicans, Blacks and Radical Abolitionists won their victory. Hopefully, they can hold onto it.

@Red_Galiray, thank you so much for this amazing Timeline that I thoroughly enjoyed reading. I look forward to see where the Union's Journey through this World will take it next, now that it has withstood it's greatest challenge yet.

It won't be easy...but in the end, may liberty prevail, let Justice be done...

And may that star-spangled banner yet wave/
Over the land of the free and the home of the brave.

I’d like to both second that, and apologize if I said anything to offend/belittle you. I wasn’t sure why you mentioned “greedy imperialist”, and I thought it was for other non-cold war reasons. I’m glad this story was made, accurate and well-written enough that a Southern Military Junta coming into power during the war actually look possible. Ultimately can’t wait to see to see the sequel.

 

[Red_Galiray]

Planter class character: They stole our birthright.
Scarlett: They only thing they did was put us in our place.
Planter Class character: Scarlett...
Scarlett: If there's one thing I've learned over the years is that before the war and Reconstruction is that we Southerners lived in this bubble, we took, we fed ourselfs, we thought we were superior to everybody just because we had land and we owned other human beings?
Planter Class character: Human beings?
Scarlett: I've grown over the years, I've learned, I've watched. I'm not the same spoiled girl I was back in 1860. If anything I'm a better person than I was in that time. My husband Rhett had made me a better person, Mammy has made me a better person, the old south is gone and good riddance I say.
Planter class character: What happened to you Scarlett?
Scarlett: Like I said I grew up, I live in the present. But you and your ilk live in the past and that is why you will never succeede.
Planter Class Charcter: You are no lady.
Scarlett: Frankly my good man, I don't very much give a damn.

Heh, pretty great!

I must confess, I do not fully remember what happened to him ITTL, but as a suggestion for a potential non-Grant president for 1868: How about Salmon P. Chase?

Chase, a father of the anti-slavery movement, a radical and supporter of black suffrage, and a man with presidential ambitions his entire life, could win highest office in 1868 and finally achieve what he had dedicated his entire life to seeing.

Chase was also a Democrat economically. For Reconstruction to succeed, I’d argue America would need an anti-racist party representing classically liberal interests as well as protectionist interests.

Of course, even if Chase remains a Republican throughout his term, he was old and sick. He died in 1873 OTL, and the stresses of the presidency combined with his satisfaction of being president may be enough to convince him not to run for a second term. This could flow well into a Grant presidency.

Chase doesn't differ that much from OTL. He still served as a capable Secretary of the Treasury, and still conspired against Lincoln to try and get the Republican nomination for himself. The difference is that Chase was the main rival here, since the Radicals were placated by the amendment and never organized the OTL Radical Democracy movement. When Chase was finally forced out the Administration, he wasn't appointed Chief Justice as a consolation either - Taney died earlier here, so the post was already filled.

I admire Chase for all his contributions to the anti-slavery movement, but I don't truly trust him, given how easily he gave up his support for Black suffrage in 1868 in hopes of seizing the Democratic nomination, and how he supported the Liberal Republican movement.

Why? Allohistorical allusions are fun in TLs

Dust in the Wind

Why, yes, that was my exact reasoning too. Of course it wouldn't be Gone With the Wind as we know it, it'd have different characters and a different author, but I find the idea of a book called Gone With the Wind that features a Southern belle as protagonist but goes in a completely different direction rather interesting.

So ends the American Civil War.

The Confederacy, along with the Slavocracy that started it and the abominable System of Slavery it fought to perpetuate, dies amidst the ruins and ashes of the South, bleeding out in the dirt, not with some grand display of honor and glory, but with a pained, pathetic whimper.

A suitably ignominious end for such a detestable cause.

But the Future lies ahead, vast and unknown. The Republicans, Blacks and Radical Abolitionists won their victory. Hopefully, they can hold onto it.

@Red_Galiray, thank you so much for this amazing Timeline that I thoroughly enjoyed reading. I look forward to see where the Union's Journey through this World will take it next, now that it has withstood it's greatest challenge yet.

It won't be easy...but in the end, may liberty prevail, let Justice be done...

And may that star-spangled banner yet wave/
Over the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Yes, I wanted the Confederacy to die a pathetic death. Nothing of the OTL nonsense of being saluted by their supposed valor or consoling themselves that defeat is not dishonor. This Confederacy was completely destroyed, and its people ought to know it. The challenge ahead is great, indeed, but let's go on to Reconstruction with hope for a better future. Thanks for reading!

I’d like to both second that, and apologize if I said anything to offend/belittle you. I wasn’t sure why you mentioned “greedy imperialist”, and I thought it was for other non-cold war reasons. I’m glad this story was made, accurate and well-written enough to avoid major squints in character/events (like the Junta and Stonewall Jackson joining that). Ultimately can’t wait to see to see the sequel.

That's alright, and thanks for your support. But I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying that the Junta and Jackson joining it are "major squints in character"?